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The House met at half-past Eleven o'clock.
PRAYERS.
1 Income Tax,-The Vice-Chamberlain of the Household reported to the House, That its Addresses of 17th November relating to Income Tax had been presented to Her Majesty; and that Her Majesty had been pleased to receive the same very graciously and to give the following Answer:
I have received your Addresses praying that the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Chile) Order 2003 and the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Australia) Order 2003 be made in the form of the drafts laid before your House on 8th September 2003.
I will comply with your request.
2 Corporal Punishment of Children (Abolition) Bill,-Mr David Hinchliffe, supported by Mr Hilton Dawson, Julie Morgan, Jane Griffiths, Dr Rudi Vis, Geraint Davies, Mr Paul Burstow, Dr Jenny Tonge, Mr Mike Hancock, Mr Elfyn Llwyd and Dr Richard Taylor, presented a Bill to amend the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 to remove any existing defence which justifies the corporal punishment of children and to give children the same protection as adults under the law on assault: And the same was read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow and to be printed [Bill 185].
3 First Aid Training in Schools,-A Motion was made, and the Question being proposed, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require first aid training to be given to children in schools as part of the National Curriculum-(Bob Russell);
And the Motion being opposed, after a brief explanatory statement from the Member who made the Motion and from a Member who opposed it, the Deputy Speaker put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 23 (Motions for leave to bring in bills and nomination of select committees at commencement of public business):-It was agreed to.
Ordered, That Bob Russell, Mr David Amess, Annette Brooke, Sandra Gidley, Mr Ivan Henderson, Lady Hermon, Kate Hoey, Mr Alan Hurst, Andrew Rosindell, Mr Simon Thomas, Dr Jenny Tonge and Angela Watkinson do prepare and bring in the Bill.
4 First Aid Training in Schools Bill,-Bob Russell accordingly presented a Bill to require first aid training to be given to children in schools as part of the National Curriculum: And the same was read the first time; and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow and to be printed [Bill 186].
5 Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill (Programme) (No.3),-A Motion was made, and the Question being put forthwith, pursuant to Orders [28th June 2001 and 29th October 2002], That the following provisions shall apply to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of 7th May 2003-
Consideration of Lords Amendments
(1) Proceedings on a motion to disagree with Lords Amendment No.1 shall be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments at this day's sitting;
(2) Remaining proceedings on Consideration of Lords Amendments shall be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.
(3) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered forthwith without any Question put.
(4) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement-(Gillian Merron);
Tellers for the Ayes, Mr Fraser Kemp, Bridget Prentice: 380.
Tellers for the Noes, Mr Peter Luff, Mr David Wilshire: 210.
So the Question was agreed to.
6 Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill,-The House, according to Order, proceeded to consider the Lords Amendments to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill.
A Motion was made, and the Question being proposed, That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment-(Mr Secretary Reid);
And it being two hours after the commencement of proceedings on Lords Amendment No. 1, the Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Order [this day], put the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Tellers for the Ayes, Mr Fraser Kemp, Bridget Prentice: 302.
Tellers for the Noes, Mr Peter Luff, Mr David Wilshire: 285.
So the Question was agreed to.
The Lords Amendment was accordingly disagreed to.
Lords Amendment No. 2 and 3 were agreed to.
A Motion was made, and the Question being put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment-(Joan Ryan);
Tellers for the Ayes, Gillian Merron, Bridget Prentice: 344.
Tellers for the Noes, Richard Younger-Ross, Bob Russell: 240.
So the Question was agreed to.
The Lords Amendment was accordingly disagreed to.
An Amendment ((a)) was made to the words so restored to the Bill.
Lords Amendment No. 5 was disagreed to.
Lords Amendments Nos. 6 to 25 were agreed to.
Lords Amendments No. 26 was disagreed to.
Lords Amendment No. 27 was agreed to.
A Motion was made, and the Question being put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment-(Joan Ryan);
Tellers for the Ayes, Gillian Merron, Charlotte Atkins: 343.
Tellers for the Noes, Mr Peter Luff, Mr David Wilshire: 213.
So the Question was agreed to.
The Lords Amendment was accordingly disagreed to.
A Motion was made, and the Question being put, That this House disagrees with the Lords in their Amendment-(Joan Ryan);
Tellers for the Ayes, Mr Nick Ainger, Charlotte Atkins: 347.
Tellers for the Noes, Richard Younger-Ross, Sir Robert Smith: 215.
So the Question was agreed to.
The Lords Amendment was accordingly disagreed to.
Lords Amendments Nos. 30 to 55 were agreed to.
An Amendment ((a)) was made to the Lords Amendment.
The Lords Amendment, as amended, was agreed to.
An Amendment ((a)) was made to the Lords Amendment.
The Lords Amendment, as amended, was agreed to.
Lords Amendment No. 58 was agreed to.
An Amendment ((a)) was made to the Lords Amendment.
The Lords Amendment, as amended, was agreed to.
Lords Amendments Nos. 60 to 121 were agreed to, the Commons being willing to waive their privilege in respect of Lords Amendments Nos. 77, 78 and 90.
It being one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the remaining Lords Amendments, the Deputy Speaker put forthwith the remaining Questions necessary to dispose of the proceedings to be concluded at that hour.
Lords Amendment No. 161 was disagreed to.
Amendments ((a) to (bb)) were made to the words so restored to the Bill.
Lords Amendments Nos. 122 to 160 and 162 to 231 were agreed to, the Commons being willing to waive their privilege in respect of Lords Amendments Nos. 217 and 218.
Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to Lords Amendments Nos. 1, 5, 26, 28 and 29;
That Mr Paul Burstow, Mr John Hutton, Mr Andrew Lansley, Joan Ryan, Claire Ward be members of the Committee;
That Mr John Hutton be the Chairman of the Committee;
That three be the quorum of the Committee;
That the Committee do withdraw immediately.-(Joan Ryan.)
The Deputy Speaker suspended the sitting, pursuant to Order [10th November].
7 Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill,-Mr John Hutton reported from the Committee appointed to draw up Reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of their Amendments to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill, That it had drawn up the following Reasons, which it had directed him to report to the House:
The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No.1 for the following Reason:
Because it is necessary to provide for the constitution of NHS foundation trusts.
The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No. 5 for the following Reason:
Because it is not necessary to have special mechanisms for appeals against or reviews of the regulator's decisions.
The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No. 26 for the following Reason:
Because the provision is not necessary for a borrowing code.
The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No. 28 for the following Reason:
Because the regulator should be required to place restrictions on private health care.
The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No. 29 for the following Reason:
Because it is unnecessary.
The Reasons were agreed to.
Message to the Lords to communicate the said Reasons, with the Bill and Amendments.
8 Business of the House,-A Motion was made, and the Question being put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. No.15 (Exempted business), That, at this day's sitting, the consideration of any Lords Messages and Amendments that may be received may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour-(Mr Vernon Coaker):-It was agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker suspended the House until a Message was received from the Lords, pursuant to Order [10th November].
9 Message from the Lords,-A Message was received from the Lords, as follows:
The Lords insist on certain of their Amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill, to which this House has disagreed, for which insistence they assign their Reason; they do not insist on certain Amendments to which this House has disagreed and do agree with the Amendments proposed by this House to the words so restored to the Bill; and they do not insist on their remaining Amendments to which this House has disagreed.
10 Criminal Justice Bill,-Lords Reasons for insisting on Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed to the Criminal Justice Bill to be printed [Bill 187].
11 Criminal Justice Bill,-The House, according to Order, proceeded to consider the Lords Reasons for insisting on Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed to the Criminal Justice Bill.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 32 was read, as follows:
Because it is inappropriate to make provision for applications by the defendant for trials to be conducted without a jury.
A Motion was made, and the Question being proposed, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment-(Paul Goggins);
And it being one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the Lords Message, the Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [yesterday].
Tellers for the Ayes, Mr Vernon Coaker, Jim Fitzpatrick: 332.
Tellers for the Noes, Richard Younger-Ross, Mr Hugo Swire: 220.
So the Question was agreed to.
An Amendment ((a)) was made to the words so restored to the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the remaining Questions necessary to dispose of the proceedings to be concluded at that hour.
Lords Amendments Nos. 33, 34 and 36.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 33 was read, as follows:
Because it is inappropriate to make provision for prosecution applications for certain complex or lengthy trials to be conducted without a jury.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 34 was read, as follows:
Because it is inappropriate to make provision for prosecution applications for trials to be conducted without a jury on the ground of the danger of jury tampering.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 36 was read, as follows:
Because it is consequential on the Lords' insistence on their Amendment No. 34.
A Motion was made, and the Question being put, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments Nos. 33, 34 and 36-(Mr John Heppell);
Tellers for the Ayes, Jim Fitzpatrick, Mr Vernon Coaker: 331.
Tellers for the Noes, Richard Younger-Ross, Gregory Barker: 215.
So the Question was agreed to.
Amendments ((a) to (h)) were made to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons' insistence on their disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 33.
Amendments ((a) to (e)) were made to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons' insistence on their disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 34.
Amendments ((a) to (d)) were made to the words restored to the Bill by the Commons' insistence on their disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 36.
Lords Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131 was read, as follows:
Because the Amendments proposed by the Lords provide a more satisfactory scheme for dealing with evidence of bad character.
A Motion was made, and the Question being put, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendments.-(Mr John Heppell.)
Tellers for the Ayes, Jim Fitzpatrick, Mr Vernon Coaker: 339.
Tellers for the Noes, Richard Younger-Ross, Mr Hugo Swire: 216.
So the Question was agreed to.
Amendments ((a) to (n)) were made to the words so restored to the Bill.
Consequential Amendments ((o) to (q)) were made to the Bill.
Resolved, That this House does not insist on its disagreement to Lords Amendment No. 120.-(Mr John Heppell.)
The Deputy Speaker suspended the House until a Message was received from the Lords, pursuant to Order [10th November].
Thursday 20th November 2003
12 Message from the Lords,-A Message was received from the Lords, as follows:
The Lords insist on certain of their Amendments to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill to which this House has disagreed, for which insistence they assign their Reasons; they do not insist on an Amendment to which the Commons have disagreed and do agree with the Amendment proposed by this House to the words so restored to the Bill; they agree to the Amendments made by this House to certain Lords Amendments; and they do not insist on their remaining Amendments to which this House has disagreed.
13 Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill,-Lords Reasons for insisting on Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill to be printed [Bill 188].
14 Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill,-The House, according to Order, proceeded to consider the Lords Reasons for insisting on Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed to the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Bill.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 1 was read, as follows:
Because Foundation Trusts will damage the wider interests of patients and the NHS.
A Motion was made, and the Question being proposed, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment.-(Mr John Hutton.)
And it being one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the Lords Message, the Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].
Tellers for the Ayes, Mr Fraser Kemp, Mr Jim Murphy: 290.
Tellers for the Noes, Mr David Wilshire, Mr Peter Luff: 249.
So the Question was agreed to.
The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the remaining Questions necessary to dispose of the proceedings to be concluded at that hour.
Consequential Amendment ((a)) was made to the Bill.
The Lords Reason for insisting on their Amendment No. 161 was read, as follows:
Because it is consequential on the Lords insistence on Amendment No. 1.
Resolved, That this House insists on its disagreement with the Lords in their Amendment.-(Joan Ryan.)
Amendments ((a) to (bb)) were made to the words so restored to the Bill.
15 Adjournment,-A Motion was made, and the Question being proposed, That this House do now adjourn-(Joan Ryan);
And the Motion having been made after Seven o'clock on Wednesday evening, and the Debate having continued for half an hour, the Deputy Speaker adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order, it being then twelve minutes to Three o'clock on Thursday morning, till this day.
[Adjourned at 2.48 a.m.
Michael J. Martin
Speaker
Mr Speaker will take the Chair at half-past Eleven o'clock.
APPENDIX I
Papers presented or laid upon the Table:
Papers subject to Affirmative Resolution:
1 Environmental Protection,-Draft Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2003 [by Act], with an Explanatory Memorandum [by Command] [Secretary Margaret Beckett].
Papers subject to Negative Resolution:
2 Education,-(1) Education (Nursery Education and Early Years Development) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2939), dated 13th November 2003, and
(2) Reading College and School of Arts and Design (Dissolution) Order 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2918), dated 12th November 2003
[by Act] [Mr Secretary Clarke].
3 Electronic Communications,-Wireless Telegraphy (Licence Charges) (Amendment) (Channel Islands and Isle of Man) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2984), dated 19th November 2003 [by Act] [Ms Secretary Hewitt].
4 Magistrates' Courts,-Family Proceedings Court (Constitution) (Greater London) Rules 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2960), dated 18th November 2003 [by Act] [Mr Christopher Leslie].
5 Medicines,-(1) Medicines (Products for Animal Use - Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2957), dated 17th November 2003 [by Act] [Secretary Margaret Beckett]; and
(2) Prescription Only Medicines (Human Use) Amendment (No. 2) Order 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2915), dated 13th November 2003 [by Act] [Mr Secretary Reid].
6 Merchant Shipping,-(1) Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2950), and
(2) Merchant Shipping (Fire Protection) Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2951),
dated 14th November 2003 [by Act] [Mr Secretary Darling].
7 Northern Ireland,-Road Traffic (Driving Disqualifications) (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2903), dated 13th November 2003 [by Act] [Mr Secretary Murphy].
8 Pensions,-Judicial Pensions (Election against Benefits) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2916), dated 12th November 2003 [by Act] [Mr Secretary Smith].
9 Social Security,-Social Security (Contributions) (Amendment No. 7) Regulations 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2958), dated 18th November 2003 [by Act] [Dawn Primarolo].
Other Papers:
10 Gambling,-Draft Gambling Bill with Explanatory Notes, Regulatory Impact Assessment and the Policy [by Command] [Cm. 6014-I, II, III and IV] [Secretary Tessa Jowell].
11 Government Resource and Accounts,-Resource Accounts for 2002-03 of:
(1) Department of Inland Revenue, Trust Statement and Standard Report, and
(2) Northern Ireland Court Service
with the Reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to be printed [No. 1072 and 1228] [Ruth Kelly].
12 Northern Ireland,-Report of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission for 2003 [by Act] [Mr Secretary Murphy].
13 Statutory Instruments (Notification),-Communication declaring that the undermentioned Statutory Instrument had come into operation before copies were laid before Parliament, and explaining why such copies had not been so laid before the Instrument came into operation:
Land Registration Fee Order 2003 (S.I., 2003, No. 2092)
[by Standing Order] [The Speaker].
14 Tribunals and Inquiries,-Report of the Council on Tribunals for 2002-03 [by Act]; to be printed [No. 1163] [Mr Christopher Leslie].
APPENDIX II
Standing Committees
European Standing Committees
1 European Union Document No. 12179/03, relating to Controls on fluorinated greenhouse gases, has been referred to European Standing Committee A.
APPENDIX III
Reports from Select Committees
1 Education and Skills,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Education and Skills Committee [Secondary Education: School Admissions]; to be printed [No. 1075-vii] [Mr Barry Sheerman].
2 Environmental Audit,-(1) Eighth Special Report from the Environmental Audit Committee [Government Response to the Eighth Report from the Committee on the Energy White Paper-Empowering Change?]; to be printed [No. 1333]; and
(2) Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee [GM Food-Evaluating the Farm Scale Trials]; to be printed [No. 1239-iv]
3 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee [US "Ghost" Ships], together with Memoranda laid before the Committee; to be printed [No. 1336] [Mr Michael Jack].
4 European Scrutiny,-(1) Thirty-eighth Report from the European Scrutiny Committee; to be printed, with the Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee relating to the Report [No. 63-xxxviii]
(2) Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee [Commission Work Programme 2004]; to be printed [No. 1334-i]
[Mr Jim Marshall].
5 Home Affairs,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Home Affairs Committee [Asylum Applications]; to be printed [No. 692-ix] [Mr John Denham].
6 Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning, Local Government and the Regions,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the committee [The Fire Service]; to be printed [No. 1168-v] [Mr Andrew Bennet].
7 Procedure,-Fourth Report from the Procedure Committee [Procedures for Debates, private Member's bills and the Powers of the Speaker], together with an Appendix, and Appendices to the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Committee; to be printed, with the Proceedings of the Committee relating to the Report [No. 333] [Sir Nicholas Winterton].
8 Public Accounts,-(1) Forty-eighth Report from the Committee [The Public Private Partnership for National Air Traffic Services Ltd]; together with the Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee relating to the Report [No. 80]; and
(2) Forty-ninth Report from the Committee [The Operational Performance of PFI Prisons]; together with the Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee relating to the Report [No. 904]; and
(3) Minutes of Evidence taken before the committee of Public Accounts [Getting it right, putting it right: Improving decision-making and appeals in social security benefits]; to be printed [No. 1335-i]
[Mr Edward Leigh].
9 Transport,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Transport Committee [Disabled People's Access to Transport]; to be printed [No. 1263-i] [Mrs Gwyneth Dunwoody].
10 Treasury,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Sub-committee of the Treasury Committee [Child Trust Funds]; to be printed [No. 1284-ii] [Mr John McFall].
11 Work and Pensions,-Minutes of Evidence taken before the Work and Pensions Committee [Child Poverty]; to be printed [No. 1328-i] [Sir Archy Kirkwood].
[W.H., No. 107]
Minutes of Proceedings of the Sitting in Westminster Hall
The sitting commenced at half-past Nine o'clock.
Adjournment,-Resolved, That the sitting be now adjourned.-(Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West).)
And accordingly the sitting was adjourned till Tuesday 25th November, pursuant to Order [4th November].
[Adjourned at 4.43 p.m.
Sir Alan Haselhurst
Deputy Speaker
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