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Some of the national boards believe that that is a good idea and have developed the crown symbol. That is clearly not enough, when pubs attract three or even four crowns. How can they be compared with a Park lane hotel? Five gold crowns are very appropriate to this time of year, but they would cause confusion to a visitor from Chicago looking to spend a little time in addition to his conference in London or elsewhere in such honey pots as York, Edinburgh, Stratford or further north in the Minister's constituency. Let us send a clear message to the new European Commissioner for Tourism. We need a European system for facilities and accommodation that commands respect and has integrity.

I know my hon. Friend's keen interest in educational matters as they affect tourism. I am pleased that the first GCSE course in tourism has been created and I admire the work of the Southern Examining Board in getting that off the ground, and the sponsors of the course, particularly the lead sponsor, American Express. I hope that the Minister will urge industry to participate fully in the modules where there is employer involvement and hold discussions with the Department of Education and Science to ensure that the course is widely known and not seen simply as a southern-based activity. But that is still not enough. We are producing too many chiefs and not enough Indians. We are sadly short of craft trainees. There is a disproportionate number of potential managers. They cannot all manage, although they are qualified to do so. We should ensure that colleges produce courses with real career prospects, with more emphasis on housekeeping, kitchen brigades and service staff so that we do not have to employ those much-needed staff from outside the United Kingdom.

My hon. Friend has also turned his attention to seasonality. What market research has been undertaken on the incentives required to extend the season? I know that he has spoken on many occasions about extending the season, but clearly the carrot has to be of a fiscal nature. Before the Chancellor goes into economic purdah, perhaps my hon. Friend will convey that recommendation to him.

Mr. Alan Devereux, chairman of the Scottish Tourist Board, an Essex anglophile who has moved north and for whom I have a great deal of time, said on 23 November :

"Scottish tourism cannot thrive solely on new buildings, swimming pools and visitor centres."

I agree with him. He continued :

"Historic buildings and monuments represent the greater part of our entertainment portfolio and they need to provide increasing entertainment and amenity".

I appreciate that I place my hon. Friend in some predicament in quoting from a leading figure in the Scottish tourist industry, but I did not restrict the debate to English tourism. That is one of the many examples applying to tourism in the United Kingdom.

The call today is for better co-ordination. The travel trade will not fly to the United Kingdom to assess opportunities at three separate trade exhibitions. There is the moot for England, and on different weeks there are events in Wales and Scotland. Surely we can combine travel trade events on one site and, if appropriate, rotate the venue.

The Department of Employment is a sponsoring Ministry for tourism but greater funds are coming from other Departments. A £6 million grant made recently in Birmingham by the Department of the Environment represents half the English tourist board section 4 funds

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and is more than 20 times greater than the average English tourist board grant. I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Minister at the Department of the Environment is probably doing his Christmas shopping since we are sitting so late, but no doubt these points can be conveyed to him by my hon. Friend the Minister at the Department of Employment. As for section 4 funding, which represented a good deal, I hope that we shall continue a move from grants towards soft loans.

Clearly, we are getting value for money. The nation currently enjoys excellent returns for taxpayers' investment in tourism. For 1988-89, the British Tourist Authority received £23.8 million Government grant in aid. I understand that every pound of taxpayers' grant currently earns more than £300 in foreign currency. Let us compare that with the agricultural lobby. Britain supports the £11, 500 million agriculture industry by Government grants of £1,855 million--a return of just £6.20 for every £1 of funding. My hon. Friend the Minister and the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry in the other place have a very good case to make in Cabinet to get a little larger slice of the taxpayers' cake for tourism.

The review now reaching its conclusion should ensure more competition in the supply of visitor information, less local government bureaucracy, an assurance of strong and continuous Government support to the British Tourist Authority and an end to the in-house consultative work by the English tourist board Scottish tourist board and Wales tourist board that can and should be undertaken by the private sector. A visitor to Britain means employment for someone else. We must not take our attractions for granted. York has shown the great visitor appeal of archaeology, with it Coppergate site being transformed into a Viking museum, which is one of Britain's liveliest. In the inner cities, such as Glasgow and Liverpool, new galleries have been opened.

Those examples must not become isolated instances. Co-ordination is required to harness constructively our great potential, within environmental constraints. Let us not allow the Greek prayer for protection against the scourge of tourism to be added to the alternative service book. Through proper planning, that fear will subside and Britain and its people will benefit immeasurably from the success of tourism. 11.48 am

Mr. Simon Coombs (Swindon) : I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Gregory) on his choice of subject for this debate, and I agree with what he said about the work that my hon. Friend the Minister does for tourism. The industry vies with oil as one of our largest earners of foreign income. It will continue to grow and be successful and, as a result, there will be growing pressure on the major tourist attractions. The greatest pressure will be on London, and that is why I wish to draw my hon. Friend's attention to the need to promote tourism in the regions.

We must do as much as possible to offer tourists every opportunity to see the attractions of the other England--the England that lies outside London- -which my hon. Friend the Member for York and I represent and do our best to promote. Swindon is at the centre of a beautiful area of countryside, including the Cotswolds and the Marlborough downs. People in my constituency, including

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those who run hotels and the facilities that are available, are trying increasingly to promote the attractions of the area. The promotion of Britain to those who consider visiting it must be undertaken on a professional basis. I pay credit to the British Tourist Authority and the English tourist board for their work in making the citizens of the European Community and countries further afield aware of what Britain has to offer to tourists. If more resources were made available, more could be done. As my hon. Friend the Minister examines the results of the recent review in his Department, will he remember the vital work that is being done professionally by those bodies?

The House would not regard it as adequate if private organisations, such as airlines, were left to do the work of promoting Britain abroad. That must be done by a professional body that is ultimately responsible to Parliament. I believe that it is well done at present, and I ask my hon. Friend to give an assurance that he will take those points into careful account and ensure that in the future Britain will continue to have as strong a presence overseas as have other countries which seek to be our rivals in the tourism industry. 11.51 am

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. John Lee) : At the outset of this debate on tourism, we should place on record our sympathies for those tourists to Britain who died in the appalling air tragedy in Scotland yesterday.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Gregory) for introducing this debate and for all that he has done over the years to raise the profile of tourism nationally and in the House. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Coombs) for his more recent work in that regard.

In recent years, the importance of tourism as a major national industry has been increasingly recognised. My hon. Friend gave the figures. The industry has a turnover of £18 billion a year, sustains 1.4 million jobs and grows at the rate of nearly 1,000 net new jobs a week. No other sector of the economy sustains new job growth at that rate. A major capital investment programme of about £2 billion, predominantly in the private sector, is under way. Tourism earns about three to four times more than the motor industry, and rather more than the aerospace industry, in export earnings.

The regional aspect of tourism is especially important and close to my heart, and I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon mentioned it. I am most impressed by the way in which tourism and leisure developments have played the lead role in rejuvenating many of our regions and cities that have suffered from economic decline. I think especially of the Albert dock development in Liverpool, which has raised the profile of Merseyside, the Wigan pier development, the waterfront developments in Hull, the maritime development in Swansea and a host of others.

My hon. Friend the Member for York talked of greater national co- ordination. While I have some sympathy with his remarks, I am sure that he will appreciate that it is not a matter for me. I can, however, offer him a little encouragement about separate exhibitions because the national boards are considering holding a British exhibition in alternate years.

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The principle of a tourism review has been appreciated and acknowledged by hon. Members. Scotland and Wales were not included in the review because they make their own arrangements for tourism, but I am sure that they will be interested and involved in its outcome. My hon. Friend the Member for York repeated his argument that we should reduce the number of regional tourist boards, but the Government have no power to impose changes on them. I heard my hon. Friend's arguments --I have heard them in the past--but we must question whether the benefits of the changes would outweigh the disruption. Nevertheless, I have taken on board the points that he made. Crown classification has caused the industry considerable frustration. We are slowly edging to an agreement, which will involve a quantitive and bolt-on quality assessment. It is hoped that an agreement will be concluded shortly so that we can move to the new crown classification procedure by September 1989.

There has been a dramatic growth in tourist information centres over recent years, of which there are 562 nationally ; about 394 are open all year. At an earlier Question Time, my hon. Friend the Member for York mentioned extended opening hours, and I agree with the points that he made about greater involvement of the private sector in the management and control of TICs. The possibility of using them as domestic travel shops has much to commend it, and at present about 80 per cent. of them are run by local authorities.

My Department and the Department of Transport are in continuous contact about the specific problem of signposting, which causes considerable frustration to many people in the tourism, hospitality and leisure industry.

With regard to deemed consent, my hon. Friend the Member for York rightly said that the east Kent experiment will be evaluated. He made an interesting suggestion about extending pilot projects and mentioned north Yorkshire and south Somerset as possible areas in which to do so. I shall put those specific proposals to the Department of Transport for its consideration.

The decision that we took in Brussels last week to designate 1990 as European Tourism Year marked the coming of age of tourism as an industry in Europe. It was the first time that we had a meeting of EEC Tourism Ministers. We have begun preliminary work on plans for this country, and I assure hon. Members that the United Kingdom will play its full part in European Tourism Year, which will raise the profile of tourism as an industry in member states. There will be a range of awards and competitions to stimulate the industry and recognition.

I very much welcome the tourism GCSE. Thirty centres are piloting the scheme, with a further 30-plus planned by September 1989, when there should be about 600 students participating. I take my hon. Friend's point that it should not be a southern-orientated experiment. We want other regions to take it on board and I shall encourage the Department of Education and Science to do what it can to promote the GCSE on a more national basis. I shall use my good offices to encourage industry fully to support the GCSE concept.

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Youth Training (Income Support)

12 noon

Mr. Chris Mullin (Sunderland, South) : I regard this as not so much a debate as a story for Christmas which illuminates a small corner of life in Tory Britain in 1988.

Earlier this year, the House passed the Social Security Bill, clause 4 of which raised to 18 the minimum age for income support in return for a guaranteed place on a youth training scheme. There were exceptions in prescribed cases of severe hardship. The Act is one of a range of measures that Conservative Members dream up between the coffee and the port around their dinner tables in Knightsbridge and Belgravia to make life difficult for the lower orders--on second thoughts, perhaps not Belgravia, but Surbiton and Grantham. The purpose of section 4 of the Social Security Act 1988 was to deal with that well-known Conservative bogy, the feckless youth who prefers to lie in bed in the morning rather than do a good day's work. The proposal met with many objections, not least from the Manpower Services Commission, which did not want its training programme clogged up with sullen youngsters dragooned on to inappropriate schemes. It met with objections also from those who argued, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) did in an Adjournment debate on 5 December, that there would not be enough YTS places for all those affected.

When the Social Security Bill had its Second Reading on 2 November last year, the Secretary of State for Social Services said : "the training allowances for those on YTS have been set at a rate well above the basic rates for most young people."

The key words in that statement are "basic" and "most". There are some serious exceptions, which were expected by the Secretary of State. He said :

"orphans and youngsters who are necessarily living away from home because of a risk of physical or sexual abuse will be able to secure a training place which will carry with it payment of the training allowance at a higher rate than their benefit, so enabling them to continue to live independently."

My hon. Friend the Member for Livingston (Mr. Cook), who replied for the Opposition, made it clear that those proposals were not adequate. He said :

"A growing number of teenagers are homeless. In the main they do not leave home for flippant or trivial reasons but because of intolerable tension at home."--[ Official Report , 2 November 1987 ; Vol. 121, c. 655-67.]

I should like to deal with just one such case, a young woman in my constituency who left home because of intolerable tension. I shall not go into the details of why she left home, except to say that I am satisfied that she had good reason for living independently. She has a troubled family history. Her mother and stepfather have moved away and she has had no contact with them for the best part of a year. She is a responsible young woman who, with the help of a local advice centre, the borough council and the local office of the Department of Social Security, has made every effort to live within her meagre means. She has done everything that the Secretary of State has asked of her. She has joined a training scheme but, as a result, is not better off--as the Secretary of State alleged--but considerably worse off. She is threatened with destitution. I do not allege that this case is typical, but it is by no means unique.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Clay) has a case in his constituency of a 17-year-old

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boy whose parents are separated. He has not seen his mother for many years and his father died earlier this year. Suddenly, he found himself alone in the world, having to pay his rent out of his training allowance, which is not possible. No doubt some of the growing army of homeless young people seen around London's railway stations have similar stories.

In parts of Sunderland--including Thorney close in which Deborah Hall lives --there are whole streets in which almost no one is working. They live in a land of the permanent training scheme. In many cases, they have the "pretend jobs" of the kind to which the Prime Minister used to refer when in opposition. About 4,000 people in Sunderland are on such schemes, and registered youth vacancies rarely exceed 20. We have some of the highest unemployment in mainland Britain, which has been greatly added to recently by the closure of the shipyards. During the general election, I and my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North addressed youth trainees on some successful schemes. I was struck by their limited horizons. They talked about adding £1 here or 50p there to their allowances and saw stretching ahead of them a world alternating between the dole and training schemes. That is the culture which this Government have, to a large measure, been responsible for creating.

On 10 October, I received a letter from a diligent advice worker in my constituency, Mrs. Flo Watt, which set out graphically the mathematics of life in the twilight zone I have just described : "Deborah is 17 years of age Relationships within her family have been under stress for some time. When her mother and stepfather moved to Cumbria, Deborah stayed behind in Sunderland She was given a one bedroomed council flat on May 23. She applied to the Social Fund for a budgeting loan for furniture and was given £226 for a cooker, bed and bedding. This is to be repaid at £2.91 over 78 weeks. Her benefit prior to September 11"--

the cut-off point for benefit for those under 18--

"was £32.84. This included a Transitional Addition of £13.44." That was awarded to enable her to live independently in the light of her circumstances.

Out of that, Deborah paid water charges, plus 20 per cent. of her rates-- another recent innovation--which amounted to £2.50 a week. She was a responsible person and organised her finances carefully. She paid £4 a week for her electricity as part of the advanced payment scheme operated by the electricity board. Under a similar operation, she paid £5 a week for gas. She was repaying £2.91 a week for her social fund loan, which was retained from her benefit. She was also buying clothes through a mail order catalogue and paid £3.50 a week for that. That came to a total of £17.91. Her rent was paid at that time since she was in receipt of benefit. Therefore, £17.91 out of £32.84 went towards those costs. She could survive by using the remaining money for food and other essentials.

Her entitlement to income support ceased on 11 September, under the new regulations governing 16 and 17-year-olds. She received a £3 bridging allowance, followed by a further £30 bridging allowance. She started a YTS placement on 26 September with an allowance of £29.50 a week, which replaced her benefit. She received her first allowance on 30 September. As soon as her income support ended, Deborah's financial difficulties began. She has not made any payments to the social fund and, as of 10 October, was £17 behind in her gas payments. Out of her training allowance of £29.50, her budget is as follows :

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water charges, rates and rent £10.75, electricity £4, gas £5, mail order catalogue £3.50, social fund loan repayment £2.91 and her bus pass to get to and from the training scheme costs £5.80, £2.80 of which can be reclaimed. Those sums, including the sum that could have been reclaimed, amounted to £29.16, leaving Deborah with only 36p for food and other necessities.

The letter from Mrs. Watt continues :

"She has already had letters from the Social Fund Officer stating that she must begin making payments or face possible court action. The Gas Board have told me that they will not disconnect for the amount of £17.90, but they are obviously looking towards payments being resumed. As she did not have a guarantor or pay a security deposit to the electricity board of £100 as a new consumer, she faces immediate disconnection if she defaults on the advance payments scheme. The reason she now has to pay towards the rent is that her applicable amount under income support is only £19.40, and every pound over and above this amount means that approximately 85p is payable towards the rent.

Deborah was educated at Felstead Special School and until September 11 was successfully looking after herself and her finances. She managed to pay her commitments every week without fail. She has managed by buying second-hand furniture to make her flat quite comfortable. It is not feasible for Deborah to return to her family and she has no other relatives in the town apart from an aunt who is herself in receipt of benefit."

The big difference in Deborah's life came when she lost the transitional protection of £13.44. She had the bad luck that her training scheme did not start until two weeks after 12 September. As a result, she was no longer on income support, which meant the automatic loss of transitional protection. I understand that, once lost, it can never be reinstated.

It seems that the Secretary of State did not anticipate the situation which I have described. If he did, he did not let on when he addressed the House on Second Reading of the Social Security Bill, as it then was.

I wrote to the Minister and summarised Deborah's position. I sent a copy of my letter to all Conservative Members because I felt so strongly about the matter. I sent also a copy of Mrs. Watts letter, which sets out the two budgets that I have outlined to the House. In my letter to Conservative Members I wrote :

"Please note that her budget includes no allowance for food and that she can only eat by defaulting on one of her other commitments Although she could just about get by on Income Support, where her rent is paid, she has not the slightest chance of doing so on her training allowance, out of which she must, of course, find her rent. So by the age of 17 this young woman is already locked into a cycle of debt from which--in an area like Sunderland--she has little prospect of escaping. She has no horizons beyond the next training scheme. Every few months the screw--in the form of new benefit or training regulations--tightens, limiting still further her already limited range of possibilities.

I appreciate that many of you will not be moved by the plight of someone in Deborah's situation. I also know however that, despite the ideological gulf that divides us, many Conservative Members do care about the human consequences of the measures that your Government is so determined to introduce. It is to these Members that this letter is addressed.

Finally, I would be glad to hear from any Conservative Member who can suggest to Deborah how she can make ends meet by any means short of turning to crime."

I received many replies, most of which were courteous. Some Conservative Members merely acknowledged my letter while others offered helpful suggestions. However, there were some rather less helpful replies from some of the backwoods. For example, the hon. Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale) wrote :

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"I don't wish to sound hardhearted--it is very often the case, and seems to be in this case, that many of the difficulties spring from actions taken by the young people themselves. So far as I can see in Deborah's case, she had the opportunity to travel to Cumbria with her parents and preferred not to do so."

The hon. Member for Thanet, North asks for the opportunity to meet the girl. I do not think that I shall add to her difficulties by introducing her to the hon. Gentleman.

I had a letter from the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner), who represents a constituency where circumstances are slightly different from those that prevail in Sunderland :

"Whilst I have some sympathy, I must say her case illustrates the utter folly of leaving home at the age of 16 or 17 and expecting the State to pick up all one's living costs."

The right hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Jopling) also wrote :

"Incidentally, I notice that at the end of your letter you refer to the possibility of the lady in question turning to crime. I do hope I can assume that you have not been putting such ideas into her head. That would be a most irresponsible thing to do."

On 7 November, I received a reply from the Minister of State, which he also copied and sent to all Conservative Members. At that stage, it was not a helpful letter. It was clearly drafted by a civil servant living an index- linked existence and it was a bald statement of the dilemma in which Deborah found herself, but it offered no solutions.

On 17 November, I wrote again, in an attempt to breach the wall of complacency that, I felt, existed in the case. I wrote to the Minister of State :

"I regret that I have failed to convey to you the sense of urgency, nay desperation, which I and everyone else concerned with this case feel.

Your letter of November 7 badly sets out the trap that your Government has devised for persons in Deborah's situation, but it does not address the consequences. Let me spell them out : She has had to default on her repayments to the Social Fund. She is now £93.87 in arrears of rent and the debt is accumulating with every passing week. It is only a question of time before one of her creditors takes her to Court in pursuit of debts she cannot possibly repay. Since we no longer put debtors in prison (although perhaps you have this in mind for the Queen's speech on Tuesday) there is a serious possibility that she will end up on the streets. Please do not advise me as some of your colleagues have done, that she ought to return to her mother, since her family circumstances are so unhappy that, faced with a choice between going home and sleeping rough she would probably choose the latter knowing as I do that you are a humane man, I cannot believe that it was ever your intention to drive young peole on to the streets in this case (although I am not so sure about some of your colleagues). I ask again, is there anything you or your department can suggest to help this young woman avoid destitution."

That led to a helpful intervention--prompted by the Minister of State--by the local Department of Social Security office, which has been very helpful. It ingeniously trawled back through the records and discovered that Deborah was owed £152 in arrears of supplementary benefit, which it paid to her swiftly.

It proposed at first to offset that against repayments due on the social fund, which would not have been helpful, but the matter is now sorted out. The DSS has also agreed to suspend repayments of £2.91 a week, so I am grateful to the manager, Mr. Hutton, and his staff, whom I have found helpful in the case.

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A new crisis now looms because of rent arrears. Deborah has received a notice of eviction. I have received great help from the borough council and she is not going to be evicted in the foreseeable future. It probably has a duty anyway under the Child Care Act 1980, and it might mean more public money being spent if she was evicted. On 13 December, I received a further letter from the Minister of State in response to mine of 17 November, saying :

"Young people who are lone parents or who are disabled benefit from special premiums introduced in the new scheme, but those young people who are not in special categories cannot be considered a priority for resources."

The letter mentions that Deborah failed to turn up to collect the special arrears of benefit. I put it to the Minister that it is not likely that a young woman in those circumstances who was offered £152 would not turn up to collect it. The reason was that the letter from the DSS was sent to the wrong address and she knew nothing about it. The Minister's letter also states :

"You will be pleased to learn that action to recover the social fund loan has been suspended until April when Deborah reaches the age of 18."

That is something for her to look forward to on her 18th birthday. There are no villains in this case. Deborah is not responsible for the situation. She is a responsible, thrifty young woman who managed until 11 September by allocating her meagre resources carefully. The DSS in Sunderland has been extremely helpful ; it is not the villain. The housing authority is doing its best to avoid eviction and it is not the villian. I would not suggest for one moment that the Minister and the Department are the villains, because they have attempted to help within the strict rules by which they are bound. They have all been victims of machinery which, once in motion, grinds inexorably on and which appears to be targeted against some of the poorest and least fortunate people in the land.

Surely Ministers have better things to do than to make life unbearable for a 17-year-old form a broken family who is doing her utmost to make ends meet in the face of great odds. The obvious solution is work--a job--but, in the land of more than 20 per cent. unemployment, that is not a realistic solution at the moment. I have told the story of Deborah in the perhaps forlorn hope that it will arouse some twinges of conscience in Tory party supporters as they tuck into their Christmas dinners. Perhaps Tory Members will think more carefully before filing through the Lobby in support of the next turn of the screw ; who knows?

What does the Minister think Deborah should do? She had 36p for food. Now that she does not have to repay the £2.91 a week that amount has increased to about £3.30. But how can she survive? I am sure that the Minister will want to join me in wishing Deborah a happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. I shall wish the Minister a happy Christmas, but I do not think that I need wish him a prosperous new year.

12.21 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sunderland, Sout(Mr. Mullin) for initiating this Adjournment debate, and I begin by paying tribute to him for the assiduous way in which he has represented the interests of his constituent in this matter.

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It may help if I recapitulate the facts of the case before us. Deborah is 17, and was in receipt of income support until 11 September this year. On that date, as the House will know, the Government withdrew entitlement to income support for those 16 to 17-year- olds not in an exempt category. Those exemptions covered, for example, the disabled and single parents. We made available instead a bridging allowance of £15 per week, payable for a maximum of eight weeks in any 12 months. Bridging allowance is paid by the Department of Employment on condition that a young person is registered for and is awaiting a YTS place.

The changes that we made to the income support entitlement of 16 and 17- year-olds are, of course, linked to our guarantee of the offer of a YTS place to all in the age group who want one. Deborah Hall claimed bridging allowance and this was paid, but on 19 September she started a YTS place with the springboard media project and qualified for the YTS training allowance of £29.50 a week.

It is gratifying to note that Deborah is on YTS. YTS offers the young people of this country a real chance to make a good start in life and to get training for skills and a recognised qualification that should stand them in good stead for the future. It is a voluntary scheme in that young people can choose whether to take up a training place, a job or stay on at school or further education. Only the option of living off the state is not available to those who are capable of work and training, as this is not an option that we believe is in the longer-term interests of anyone, especially young people.

There are 428,000 16 and 17-year-olds currently taking advantage of the opportunities that YTS offers. Leaving aside the advantages for the future, which I have already mentioned, the great majority of those on such schemes are considerably better off financially, as the training allowance of £29.50 a week in the first year and £35 in the second is much higher than the appropriate income support rate in the age group, which is £19.40.

It is also worth mentioning that the decision to remove general benefit entitlement from 16 and 17-year-olds was not a cost-cutting measure. DSS savings are offset by an increase in expenditure on the YTS programme, and the overall effect is an increase in expenditure on the youth of this country--an investment with which I am sure the hon. Gentleman would agree.

Although Deborah would have received the maximum housing benefit available- -that is, 100 per cent. help with rent and 80 per cent. help with rates-- when she was on income support and on the bridging allowance, when she obtained the YTS place, her housing benefit will have been recalculated to take into account her increased income. Under the new housing benefit system, the vast majority of the rules for calculating entitlement are common to income support and housing benefit.

The housing benefit system is designed to leave all tenants with at least their income support level to live on after meeting their eligible rent and rates. So Deborah's housing benefit will have been assessed by comparing her income with the basic personal allowance for a 16 or 17-year-old of £19.40 per week. This rate is common to both income support and housing benefit. The assessment is done using the standard housing benefit tapers of 65 per cent. for rent and 20 per cent. for rates. Therefore, Deborah receives housing benefit of £7.18 for rent and £1.65 for rates.

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Before I make some general remarks about the system, I want to refer briefly to one further aspect of Deborah's case which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. Deborah's mother applied for a single payment on her behalf last January. It was for towels, bedding and pots and pans, because Deborah had only recently obtained her tenancy and did not have those items. Unfortunately, the local office at the time had a very substantial backlog of cases to deal with because of a locally organised take-up campaign and her case was not dealt with until June. A single payment of £152 was then authorised.

Unfortunately--due, I think, to a misunderstanding between Deborah and the local office--it was never issued. That was not discovered until September, when the local office was considering the rescheduling of repayments on a subsequent loan from the social fund. Deborah has now received the single payment, and the local office has decided to defer, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, any further recovery of the loan until April, when Deborah reaches the age of 18.

I would be the first to acknowledge that the benefit system, especially as it affects young people living away from their family, does not give them a great deal to live on. However, it is important to explain why the system is structured as it is. The House will be aware, as I have already mentioned, that the new housing benefit system is essentially aligned with that for income support. The change was widely welcomed by outside commentators and results in a fairer and simpler structure. For the first time, all housing benefit cases are assessed on the basis of the same maximum entitlement to meet housing costs, so there is no need to introduce complexities into the scheme, such as the old housing benefit supplement. The effect of the universal 100 per cent. start point for rent is to give more help where rents are unavoidably high, and, for the first time, full protection against reasonable rent rises for all those on benefit. Those changes, together with the fact that we now assess on net, not gross, income, justify the fact that we now withdraw help with rent faster as income rises.

I acknowledge that the fundamental reform of the system will have caused considerable differences in housing benefit entitlement at the point of change, because the payments were arbitrarily different before. That is why transitional payments were made available for those in vulnerable groups. I also acknowledge that the changes especially affect young householders. The reason is simply that, with the alignment of income support, and with the abolition of householder status within income support, both income support and housing benefit rates must reflect the characteristics of young people as a whole rather than differentiate between householders and non- householders.

The essential characteristic of young people, especially in the 16 to 17- year age group, is that they live at home with their parents. Therefore, the only way to help people like Deborah who live away from their parents would also be to give an incentive generally for people to move away from home. We recognise that there are circumstances in which people do have to move out, but we would not want to create such an incentive. Moreover, it is a basic principle of the benefit system that help should be targeted accurately on those who need it most. That means the old, the disabled, and families with children. That means also that young fit people without dependants have to be lower down our list of priorities.

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I conclude by reiterating that we do have a real concern for this particular group of young people who, for one reason or another, cannot live at home. The Government have given a commitment to monitoring the effects of the reforms and we shall of course be looking at the effect the changes are having on this group as well as others. If changes are necessary, and if changes are sensible within the basic simpler structure, the Government will make them.

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Broomhills Psychotherapy Unit, Bexley Hospital

12.30 pm

Mr Mark Wolfson (Sevenoaks) : I am pleased to have the opportunity to raise the issue of the work of the Broomhills psychotherapy unit at Bexley hospital with the House and with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Health. I had experience of his competence, concern and judgment when I was Parliamentary Private Secretary at the Ministry of Defence. I congratulate him on his new appointment and I wish him well in his key role.

The Broomhills unit is not in my constituency, nor is it within either of the health districts that cover the Sevenoaks constituency. My particular interest in its work arises because my wife, who has spent 30 years as a psychiatric social worker, is attached to Broomhills as the unit's social worker employed by Bexley council. Having declared that interest, it should not, I hope, be held against my arguments, but rather viewed as one of the many ways in which hon. Members become interested, involved and knowledgeable about so many aspects of life in Britain.

Broomhills lies within the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn), and friend he is. We nursed our respective seats together and entered the House together. We continue to work together on much common ground. The future of Broomhill is one example. He has asked me to say that he fully supports the points that I shall make today and I confirm that he has already been active in pursuing the objectives that I shall outline.

Broomhills is a therapeutic community, managed by Bexley health authority in the grounds of Bexley hospital on the border of greater London and Kent. It is located in the old medical superintendent's house on the perimeter of the hospital's grounds and has its own entrance. It provides facilities for up to 18 patients who stay at the unit from Monday to Friday, returning home at weekends. Broomhills aims to help severely disturbed people to understand their problems and find more healthy and adaptive ways of dealing with their lives and relationships. Treatment is primarily, but not exclusively, psychodynamic. It takes place daily in community meetings, group psychotherapy, art therapy and individual sessions facilitated by appropriate members of the multi-disciplinary staff team.

As a therapeutic community, the treatment concentrates not only on work in groups but on the aspects of daily life which offer opportunities for social learning. That form of treatment avoids the use of medicinal drugs. All the domestic work--shopping, cooking and cleaning--is carried out by the patients. There are no domestic staff, which keeps costs down and prepares people for a full return to the community.

Broomhills' staff work with a broad range of patients, including those suffering from various neurotic disorders, personality disorders, and what may be termed borderline psychoses. Typically, most patients referred to Broomhills have a long-standing psychiatric history that may include contact with general acute services through episodes of overdosing and self -mutilation.

The key point I make is that the object of this therapeutic community is to break the revolving door

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