---

Mr. Maginnis : I find little in the Bill to which I or my party would object. Living as we do in Northern Ireland at the coal face, we recognise the effect that the prevention of terrorism Act has had on reducing the ability of the terrorist to operate there.

---

Column 105

The hon. Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlam) referred to 1,784 people who have died in the 15 years since the prevention of terrorism legislation was first introduced. I have not had an opportunity to check that figure, but I accept it. It means that on average more than 100 people have died at the hands of terrorists each year over the 15 years. However, the hon. Lady failed to point out that, before the introduction of the prevention of terrorism legislation, 1,100 people died in just three years. Therefore, I must assume that some good has come from the prevention of terrorism legislation over the past 15 years because the rate of deaths has been reduced by about one third.

It is important that I record the aspects of the Bill about which I am concerned. My first point must always bother someone living in Northern Ireland. It relates to the exclusion element in the Bill. We tend to see that element as a discarding of the threat from this part of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland. It there is reasonable suspicion about someone entering Great Britain, the vast resources which can be concentrated on trying to detect that person's motivies should be utilised instead of simply shipping the problem back to Northern Ireland which has has to endure the brunt of terrorism for nearly 20 years.

I am also worried that there is a vague suggestion--and I hope that it is only a vague suggestion--that the Government may not continue to derogate from the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights. That would be a mistake. It is necessary to be able to detain suspect terrorists against whom there is reasonable suspicion for a period which will allow the police to carry out inquiries--for example, forensic inquiries--which are often necessary to ensure that prosecution can be pursued successfully through the courts. The most disturbing feature of the Bill is that we have not looked carefully enough at schedule 1. I am sorry that we have not had a chance in Committee or on Report to debate it-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) spoke for quite a while. I hope that he will realise that I have less than two minutes to speak. Perhaps he will allow me to put my case.

In so far as we vaguely define the Irish Republican Army as one of the relevant organisations under schedule 1, we do the Bill a disservice. The Irish Republican Army refers to the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. If we are serious about encouraging people to adopt a political position, we should have eliminated the Official IRA from the list in schedule 1.

For almost 15 years they have not been involved in terrorism, but they have formed themselves into a political party--one with which I disagree, but I am a democrat--called the Workers party. I believe that it is wrong that the Government should be entertaining them one day in Stormont castle and the next day proscribing them under schedule 1 to the Bill. I would ask the Minister, when the Bill becomes law, to consider de-proscribing that organisation and thus encouraging terrorists to move to use of the ballot paper only. It being Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker-- proceeded, pursuant to the order [23 January] and the resolution this day, to put the Question already proposed from the Chair, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

The House divided : Ayes 235, Noes 134.

---

Column 106

Division No. 61] [10 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Amess, David

Ashby, David

Baldry, Tony

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Bottomley, Peter

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Budgen, Nicholas

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butcher, John

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Cash, William

Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chope, Christopher

Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon John

Cormack, Patrick

Cran, James

Critchley, Julian

Curry, David

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Dorrell, Stephen

Dover, Den

Dykes, Hugh

Emery, Sir Peter

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fallon, Michael

Fearn, Ronald

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forman, Nigel

Fox, Sir Marcus

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Fry, Peter

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Alan

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Gow, Ian

Gower, Sir Raymond

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Ground, Patrick

Grylls, Michael

Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn

Hampson, Dr Keith

Hannam, John

Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Haselhurst, Alan

Hayes, Jerry

Hayward, Robert

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Heddle, John

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)

Hind, Kenneth

Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)

Holt, Richard

Hordern, Sir Peter

Howard, Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, David (Wirral W)

Hunter, Andrew

Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

Jopling, Rt Hon Michael

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

Kennedy, Charles

Key, Robert

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Knox, David

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Latham, Michael

Lawrence, Ivan

Lee, John (Pendle)

Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Livsey, Richard

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Luce, Rt Hon Richard

Lyell, Sir Nicholas

McCrindle, Robert

Macfarlane, Sir Neil

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

Maclean, David

Maclennan, Robert

McLoughlin, Patrick

McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

Maginnis, Ken

Malins, Humfrey

Mans, Keith

Maples, John

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Maude, Hon Francis

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Miller, Sir Hal

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Moate, Roger

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moore, Rt Hon John

Morrison, Sir Charles

Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)

Moss, Malcolm

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Mudd, David

Nelson, Anthony

Neubert, Michael

Newton, Rt Hon Tony

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Norris, Steve

---