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Mr. Maginnis : I find little in the Bill to which I or my party would object. Living as we do in Northern Ireland at the coal face, we recognise the effect that the prevention of terrorism Act has had on reducing the ability of the terrorist to operate there.
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The hon. Member for Redcar (Ms. Mowlam) referred to 1,784 people who have died in the 15 years since the prevention of terrorism legislation was first introduced. I have not had an opportunity to check that figure, but I accept it. It means that on average more than 100 people have died at the hands of terrorists each year over the 15 years. However, the hon. Lady failed to point out that, before the introduction of the prevention of terrorism legislation, 1,100 people died in just three years. Therefore, I must assume that some good has come from the prevention of terrorism legislation over the past 15 years because the rate of deaths has been reduced by about one third.It is important that I record the aspects of the Bill about which I am concerned. My first point must always bother someone living in Northern Ireland. It relates to the exclusion element in the Bill. We tend to see that element as a discarding of the threat from this part of the United Kingdom to Northern Ireland. It there is reasonable suspicion about someone entering Great Britain, the vast resources which can be concentrated on trying to detect that person's motivies should be utilised instead of simply shipping the problem back to Northern Ireland which has has to endure the brunt of terrorism for nearly 20 years.
I am also worried that there is a vague suggestion--and I hope that it is only a vague suggestion--that the Government may not continue to derogate from the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights. That would be a mistake. It is necessary to be able to detain suspect terrorists against whom there is reasonable suspicion for a period which will allow the police to carry out inquiries--for example, forensic inquiries--which are often necessary to ensure that prosecution can be pursued successfully through the courts. The most disturbing feature of the Bill is that we have not looked carefully enough at schedule 1. I am sorry that we have not had a chance in Committee or on Report to debate it-- [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon) spoke for quite a while. I hope that he will realise that I have less than two minutes to speak. Perhaps he will allow me to put my case.
In so far as we vaguely define the Irish Republican Army as one of the relevant organisations under schedule 1, we do the Bill a disservice. The Irish Republican Army refers to the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. If we are serious about encouraging people to adopt a political position, we should have eliminated the Official IRA from the list in schedule 1.
For almost 15 years they have not been involved in terrorism, but they have formed themselves into a political party--one with which I disagree, but I am a democrat--called the Workers party. I believe that it is wrong that the Government should be entertaining them one day in Stormont castle and the next day proscribing them under schedule 1 to the Bill. I would ask the Minister, when the Bill becomes law, to consider de-proscribing that organisation and thus encouraging terrorists to move to use of the ballot paper only. It being Ten o'clock, Mr. Speaker-- proceeded, pursuant to the order [23 January] and the resolution this day, to put the Question already proposed from the Chair, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The House divided : Ayes 235, Noes 134.
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Division No. 61] [10 pmAYES
Alexander, Richard
Amess, David
Ashby, David
Baldry, Tony
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)
Bottomley, Peter
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Brazier, Julian
Bright, Graham
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Browne, John (Winchester)
Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)
Buck, Sir Antony
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butcher, John
Butler, Chris
Butterfill, John
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Cash, William
Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda
Channon, Rt Hon Paul
Chope, Christopher
Clark, Hon Alan (Plym'th S'n)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cope, Rt Hon John
Cormack, Patrick
Cran, James
Critchley, Julian
Curry, David
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dorrell, Stephen
Dover, Den
Dykes, Hugh
Emery, Sir Peter
Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)
Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Fallon, Michael
Fearn, Ronald
Fishburn, John Dudley
Fookes, Dame Janet
Forman, Nigel
Fox, Sir Marcus
Franks, Cecil
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Fry, Peter
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Gill, Christopher
Glyn, Dr Alan
Goodhart, Sir Philip
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gow, Ian
Gower, Sir Raymond
Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Gregory, Conal
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Ground, Patrick
Grylls, Michael
Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Hampson, Dr Keith
Hannam, John
Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')
Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Hayes, Jerry
Hayward, Robert
Heathcoat-Amory, David
Heddle, John
Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)
Hicks, Robert (Cornwall SE)
Hind, Kenneth
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm)
Holt, Richard
Hordern, Sir Peter
Howard, Michael
Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Hunter, Andrew
Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Irvine, Michael
Jack, Michael
Janman, Tim
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Jones, Robert B (Herts W)
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine
Kennedy, Charles
Key, Robert
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Kirkhope, Timothy
Knapman, Roger
Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)
Knox, David
Lamont, Rt Hon Norman
Latham, Michael
Lawrence, Ivan
Lee, John (Pendle)
Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Lightbown, David
Lilley, Peter
Livsey, Richard
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Luce, Rt Hon Richard
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
McCrindle, Robert
Macfarlane, Sir Neil
MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)
Maclean, David
Maclennan, Robert
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael
McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)
Maginnis, Ken
Malins, Humfrey
Mans, Keith
Maples, John
Marshall, John (Hendon S)
Martin, David (Portsmouth S)
Maude, Hon Francis
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Meyer, Sir Anthony
Miller, Sir Hal
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)
Mitchell, Sir David
Moate, Roger
Montgomery, Sir Fergus
Moore, Rt Hon John
Morrison, Sir Charles
Morrison, Rt Hon P (Chester)
Moss, Malcolm
Moynihan, Hon Colin
Mudd, David
Nelson, Anthony
Neubert, Michael
Newton, Rt Hon Tony
Nicholls, Patrick
Nicholson, David (Taunton)
Norris, Steve
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