House of Commons Hansard Debates for 6 Feb 1989

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want to do, but they are inhibited by provisions that seem to say to them : "Brothers and sisters, you are shortly going to be made redundant, with a ticket machine in your place." If hon. Members were told that they were going to be replaced by ticket machines, that would not exactly increase their morale. I sometimes think that if we put the board and the management elite on the platforms and ticket machines in the boardroom, we would probably get a better system. 9.21 pm

Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson : With the leave of the House, I shall comment on some of the points made in what has been an interesting debate.

It was perhaps inevitable that such a scheme would attract criticism of how it would work. However, I hope that I have also detected in the debate a consensus that something should be done to correct evasion. Hon. Members from all parties no doubt have their own pet schemes for dealing with it.

The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) talked about the infringement of civil liberties. The same argument could be levelled against the meter maids--the traffic wardens--who presume a person guilty and put a ticket on his car, even though he may have had a valid reason for not paying the meter. If that is regarded as an infringement of civil liberty, I am not aware that the hon. Gentleman has made much fuss about it. We are introducing not a criminal offence but a civil one, which will be a deterrent to people who do not pay their fare.

Concern has been expressed about the authorised personnel. I think that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish referred to people who impersonate driving instructors. He will know that the Bill sets out clear rules about how a person issued with a penalty fare ticket should seek the documentation of the authorised person. Frankly, in written terms, that is as fair as one can be. Inevitably, some people will try to dress up and cheat the passenger, but the passenger has the opportunity to seek the official's identification if he is at all concerned.

Deferred payment machines are already in place on the London-Southend- Tilbury line, though perhaps not in the numbers which we would eventually want. There are 100 automatic ticket machines in place and 1,000 on order. No matter how many are required, they will be provided.

The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish referred to the large numbers of people already being prosecuted. Earlier, I gave a figure of between 3,000 and 4,000. As the majority of offenders are within the £2 fare bracket, and since the national loss is about £50 million, about 20 million individual journeys may be involved. However, I accept the point made by other hon. Members that those are, inevitably, estimates. I was not trying, at the outset, to present them as hard and fast figures.

Over the years I have discussed a fair number of British Rail Bills with the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape). He raised a number of important issues, many of them referring to the whole question of how a passenger who is challenged, but who might have good reason for not having a ticket, could be dealt with. Since these are important points it might be helpful to the House if I were to take a moment or two to indicate some of the types of discretion that one would expect to see exercised by the authorised person. This will come up in their training.

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First of all, there are the procedures to be adopted by the authorised person when a passenger refuses or fails to pay. "Listen to the passenger for an explanation" is the very first and, I hope, golden rule. "If it is immediately obvious that British Rail is at fault, issue a ticket at ticket-office price. If there is reason for suspicion, press for details. If not satisfied, report to penalty fares office with brief statement from passenger. Check details given--name and address." I accept the point about the person giving a fake name and address--a matter raised by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek). Obviously one cannot guard totally against that. "Issue penalty fares notice and tell the passenger that he has 21 days to pay or to appeal."

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : What guidance is to be given to the inspector in respect of someone whose name coincides with that of a person who is well known? I have a constituent whose name is the same as that of a famous person. Every time my constituent gives his name to the police or to anyone else the first comment is, "Pull the other one." There is great difficulty in insisting that the correct name has been given. Anyone who has a name like Margaret Thatcher and is not the Prime Minister has problems.

Mr. McNair-Wilson : I understand that there can be serious problems for some people, but I hope that the discretion to be exercised by the authorised person will take account of that. These are the sorts of questions that would be subject to discretion at the time or after the notice had been issued.

Let me come to some of the explanations that may be given. "Facilities not available." The authorised person's discretion should deal with most of these cases at the time ; hopefully they will not go any further. "Waiting time excessive." "I thought the ticket was valid." "Office was closed." "Did not know about the machines." "Did not understand how the machine worked." "The last time I used a machine I lost my money." Since these machines are very reliable that is an excuse which, one hopes, will not be taken too seriously. "I can't read". That is a perfectly reasonable and valid excuse. "Did not know what ticket to get." "I fell asleep." "I did not realise I had got to my destination." "I am foreign." "The machine did not work." "I got on the wrong train." " I am pregnant, under the doctor." "I got on the train to help someone and was carried off." "I have been on the station but have not travelled." "I am disabled and could not get to the office."

If true, these are the sorts of things that the inspector, the authorised person, will clearly exempt.

Mr. Snape : It might have enlightened the House more if the hon. Gentleman had said who exactly will have to pay the penalty, given the list of exemptions that we have just heard.

Mr. McNair-Wilson : I hope the hon. Gentleman will recognise that all those exemptions, or matters for discretion, are sensible, that these are problems that could genuinely occur. I want to make it crystal clear that the person travelling on the British Rail network who wants to buy a ticket has nothing to fear. A whole lot of people to whom I have just referred have nothing to fear. But when persistent offenders, over the years, undermine the

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structure of the railway management and, by so doing, cause increases in ticket prices, and so on, the board has a responsibility to do something about it.

Mr. Cryer : Does not the board also have a responsibility to ensure that young children do not have access to the railway? How does it reconcile that duty with the removal of barriers?

Mr. McNair-Wilson : There is no question of unstaffed stations or of a great empty concourse. I remember sponsoring a Bill about 10 years ago which increased the powers of the British Rail police. I also remember the resistance to it in various parts of the House. There is no question of allowing every drunk to wander on the track or on to a train.

Mr. Tony Banks : Was the hon. Gentleman giving examples of excuses which would be acceptable, or was it an exhaustive list? One could think of others such as "My local Member of Parliament stole my ticket, guv."

When British Rail was adequately staffed--it was known for being labour- intensive and for providing a good service once--was ticket fraud greater or less?

Mr. McNair-Wilson : Ticket fraud is not new. In the past, the procedure was to use the Act to which I referred earlier. It is still in place. What is proposed is different--these are not criminal penalties. There has always been ticket fraud.

Mr. Banks : I accept what the hon. Gentleman says. It must be true. Nevertheless, will he answer my question? Has there been a significant increase in ticket fraud? If not, why is British Rail presenting this Bill?

Mr. McNair-Wilson : There has been an increase. Much of it is opportunistic. Even between Second Reading in another place one year ago and now, the figure for Network SouthEast has increased quite steeply. There is a serious problem which needs to be resolved.

Mr. Snape : If what the hon. Gentleman has said is true, and if he says it we accept that it is true, how much of the estimated £36 million does he expect will be saved by the Bill, bearing in mind the list of possible exemptions that he has given?

Mr. McNair-Wilson : I tried to cover that point in my opening speech. The board considers that a realistic figure would be a reduction by £9 million. That is its first objective, but if the scheme goes further, that is in everybody's interests.

Hon. Members spoke about ticket machines. Deferred payment machines take coins between 5p and £1 in value. Ticket machines are currently able to take £5 and £10 notes, but we hope to go up to £20 notes.

Mr. Banks : But that will buy only a single ticket on the Underground.

Dr. Marek : Perhaps I might bring the hon. Gentleman back to the £9 million saving. Has the board calculated how much that is lost through evasion could be saved by employing an extra 1,000 or 2,000 people?

Mr. McNair-Wilson : The board regards this as the most efficient way in which to do it, given that the barrier system

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in some stations leads to great queuing and crowding. I well remember when I was Member of Parliament for West Lewisham i3D3-3E1

Mr. Banks : But that will buy only a single ticket on the Underground.

Mr. McNair-Wilson : The board regards this as the most efficient way in which to do it, given that the barrier system in some stations leads to great queuing and crowding. I well remember when I was Member of Parliament for West Lewisham i

The hon. Member for Wrexham referred to violence. The guards or ticket collectors who are responsible for maintaining order on the railway network are aware of the very serious problems that they face. Not too long ago there was an incident in which someone was stabbed in the eye at the end of a journey when a number of vandals got off a train. As I pointed out earlier, that is exactly why it is planned that the people authorised to carry out the scheme should work in pairs, or in larger teams, because such a danger exists. We hope that those who work in those very difficult and responsible positions will recognise that the proposals in the Bill are in their interests just as much as they are in the interests of the travelling public.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the problem of collection on the trains. I wish to make it quite clear that although there can be ticket inspections on the trains there can also be ticket inspections at stations. The Bill does not in any way rule out the fact that the scheme can be operated on the station as well as on the train. However, the objective is that it should take place on trains during shorter journeys. However, I take the point that was made by the hon. Members for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) and for Denton and Reddish that some shorter journeys involve trains where it would be difficult to carry out such checks. The board will not introduce the system on any part of the railway network until it is satisfied that the criteria which I set out originally are in place. That is why the first likely candidate for the system will be the

Tilbury-Southend-London route.

Turning to the speech by the hon. Member for Bradford, South, of course I take his point about the loading gauges. I am sufficiently well aware of railway operations to know the difference between what happens here and what happens on the continent, but for whatever reasons, open stations have become commonplace throughout Europe, and Britain is now almost alone in the operation of the barrier system which, as the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) pointed out, can lead to a great deal of queueing and inconvenience.

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Mr. Banks : There is a problem at Stratford because British Rail Network SouthEast is trying to operate an open station system and London Regional Transport is installing new barriers. That is the nonsense. The barrier is brand new and has been in place for only about 12 months so there is a total conflict between Network SouthEast and London Regional Transport. Surely that is another good reason for having a strategic transport authority for London.

Mr. McNair-Wilson : That is another matter, but I understand what the hon. Gentleman says. There is an inter-relationship between LRT and British Rail and where there is an interface as has just been described by the hon. Gentleman it is in everyone's interest to have a commonality policy. No doubt his remarks will have been heard by the board.

The hon. Member for Bradford, South referred to the figures. The hon. Member for Wrexham thought that the figures may be too low but the hon. Member for Bradford, South thought that they were too high. I accept that the figures are not precise. They are estimated figures and both the hon. Gentlemen could be correct. However, there have been meetings with the National Union of Railwaymen on that issue. Those meetings will continue and, as the Bill passes through its various stages, there will be opportunities for the discussions to continue.

It saddened me to hear hon. Members criticise the chairman of British Rail. He is very much a railwayman, unlike some chairmen. I was sorry to hear hon. Members attack him as if he knew nothing about the railway system. He started work on the railways as a young lad, much against the wishes of his family. He has been a distinguished chairman and I would like to think that the House believes that he has done a good job for British Rail.

Having sought to clarify many of the questions raised by hon. Members, I reiterate my view that this is a good scheme. Clearly, trial and error will show how good it is but I do not think that any of us would rest easy if we allowed a system to continue in which large sums of money are lost which could be used to the benefit of British Rail, and, more importantly, to the benefit of the travelling public.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time : The House divided : Ayes 93, Noes 59.

Division No. 76] [9.41 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Allason, Rupert

Amess, David

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Brazier, Julian

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Budgen, Nicholas

Burt, Alistair

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Chapman, Sydney

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

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Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Durant, Tony

Fallon, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Fishburn, John Dudley

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forth, Eric

Fox, Sir Marcus

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Gower, Sir Raymond

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hargreaves, A. (B'ham H'll Gr')

Harris, David

Hicks, Mrs Maureen (Wolv' NE)

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Hunt, David (Wirral W)

Hunter, Andrew

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knight, Dame Jill (Edgbaston)

Lawrence, Ivan

Lightbown, David

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Maclean, David

Maclennan, Robert

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mans, Keith

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Sir David

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moss, Malcolm

Needham, Richard

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Paice, James

Patnick, Irvine

Porter, David (Waveney)

Portillo, Michael

Redwood, John

Rhodes James, Robert

Riddick, Graham

Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Summerson, Hugo

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Thurnham, Peter

Wallace, James

Widdecombe, Ann

Wiggin, Jerry

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson and Mr. Neil Thorne.

NOES

Armstrong, Hilary

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Buckley, George J.

Callaghan, Jim

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clay, Bob

Cohen, Harry

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Darling, Alistair

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Duffy, A. E. P.

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Eadie, Alexander

Eastham, Ken

Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Faulds, Andrew

Flynn, Paul

Foster, Derek

Galbraith, Sam

Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John

Grocott, Bruce

Hardy, Peter

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