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Column 441
Written Answers to Questions
Monday 20 February 1989
DEFENCE
Anti-missile Defence System
Mr. David Howell : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether he has received a report on the practicability of a strategic anti-missile defence system for the United Kingdom ; and whether he will make a statement.
Mr. Archie Hamilton : I have nothing to add to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Dr. Thomas) on 26 January 1989 at column 754.
Queen's Flight
Mr. David Young : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when renewals of aircraft in the Queen's Flight will be required ; if he will make it his policy to purchase such aircraft from British manufacturers ; and if he will make a statment.
Mr. Sainsbury : Replacement dates for aircraft in the Queen's Flight are kept under review. Our procurement policy for such aircraft, as for other equipment, is aimed at meeting the requirement in the most cost- effective way.
Service Children's Education Authorities
Mr. Cartwright : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what efforts are being made to ensure that teachers working for the service children's education authorities and who have separate contracts employing them to undertake lunchtime supervision are paid (a) the back-pay due to them and (b) regularly in the future on a monthly basis.
Mr. Neubert : Arrangements for the payment of senior lunch-time supervisory duties in respect of United Kingdom-based teachers employed with the service children's education authorities have been established effective from 1 December 1988. Payment will be paid on a termly basis. We expect to resolve the question of back-pay for hours worked prior to this date shortly.
Lance Missile Replacement
Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if has received any notification from the United States Defence Department on the replacement of Lance missiles with the multiple-launch rocket system missile.
Mr. Archie Hamiliton : The United States announced its choice of the M270 multiple-launch rocket system (mlrs) as a launcher for a successor missile to Lance to NATO's high level group on 5 December, publicly confirming this decision the following day. A nuclear missile for the launcher has not yet been selected. The choice of launcher and missile are national United States decisions ; NATO has not yet agreed to the deployment of a Lance successor.
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Armilla Patrol
Mr. Adley : To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a further statement about the role of the Armilla patrol.
Mr. Archie Hamilton : The Armilla patrol is continuing to provide reassurance to British merchant shipping in the Gulf by independently patrolling international waters and remaining immediately available to go to their protection if necessary. Royal Navy ships will remain in the Gulf for as long as we judge that there remains a job to be done upholding freedom of navigation there.
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
Kampuchea
Ms. Walley : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what he has done to bring about substantial reconstruction and development aid for Kampuchea.
Mr. Eggar : We do not give Government-to-Government aid to the regime in Phnom Penh. We have, however, contributed £100,000 to the FAO appeal for Cambodia and £250,000 to the UNICEF programme there. In addition, my hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development has announced an increase of £500,000 to support projects, including humanitarian projects in Cambodia, proposed by British voluntary agencies for assistance under the joint funding scheme.
AIDS
Mr. Butler : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, pursuant to his answer to the hon. Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) of 13 February, Official Report, column 14, how the study referred to defines exceptional demographic change as a result of AIDS ; and what evidence he has of such exceptional demographic change in sub-Saharan African countries.
Mr. Eggar : Data are insufficient at this stage to assess accurately the long-term impact of AIDS on populations. The objective of this research project is to obtain information on how communities have coped in the past with disease and disasters which have had an impact on their populations. This will assist policy-makers establish appropriate ways of fostering and supporting community self-help methods of alleviating the potential impact of AIDS.
Amazonia (Dams)
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if, in the light of the proposals of Electronorte for financing projects such as the Tucurui and Balbina dams in Amazonia, the United Kingdom executive director to the World Bank was instructed to support any electric power sector loan requested by Brazil.
Mr. Eggar : The Tucurui and Balbina dams were constructed without World Bank loans. The World Bank has stated that it has financed no hydroelectric power schemes in Amazonia and has no plans to do so. It is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government to disclose instructions given to our executive directors in international financial institutions.
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Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Government of Brazil about World Bank finance, and British private finance for Plan 2010, with regard to the proposals to build dams in Amazonia.
Zambia
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what promises of aid were made by the United Kingdom to Zambia at the meeting of the World Bank consultative group held on 25 and 26 June 1988.
Mr. Eggar : The World Bank consultative group on Zambia did not meet in 1988 although an informal meeting among donors to Zambia was held under World Bank auspices in June. No promises of aid were sought or given.
Brazil (Dam Projects)
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance Her Majesty's embassy in Brasilia has given in support of British consultants seeking the consultancy for dams on the Xingu river near Altamira, and for the Grande Carajas project ; and what steps the Overseas Development Administrations permanent delegation to the World Bank is taking to monitor the progress of these projects.
Mr. Eggar : No approaches have been made by United Kingdom consultants to the British Embassy in Brasilia on either of these projects. I understand that original proposals for hydroelectric power development on the Xingu river near Altamira are being reconsidered. Work on the Carajas iron ore mine project, which was financed in part by a World Bank loan, was completed some time ago.
Amazonia (Indebtedness)
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the development committee of the World Bank has taken to deal with the chronic indebtedness of countries in the Amazonian basin to private banks and international institutions and with what results ; and what further action is proposed.
Mr. Eggar : The development committee has repeatedly endorsed the current case-by-case growth-oriented strategy. This approach has encouraged a number of Latin American countries to embark on the economic reforms required to overcome their debt difficulties and led creditor Governments to provide financial assistance in support of adjustment programmes. The committee has called on debtors and banks further to broaden the choice of market-based options for use in voluntarily negotiated arrangements.
Brazil
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make available the World Bank's staff appraisal reports for all projects covered by the electric power sector loan requested by Brazil.
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Mr. Eggar : The proposed second power sector loan will not be for specific projects. The World Bank specifies that appraisal reports may be used by recipients only in the performance of their official duties ; and their contents may not otherwise be disclosed without World Bank authorisation.
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are the latest arrangements that the United Kingdom director has agreed to in relation to the indebtedness of Brazil and its ability to meet its obligations to the International Monetary Fund, the International Bank of Reconstruction and Development and the International Development Association.
Mr. Eggar : The executive board of the IMF agreed a loan of $1.4 billion in July 1988 ; the executive board of the IBRD agreed a loan of $300 million for the agriculture sector in June 1988 (Brazil is not eligible for IDA lending). These loans are designed to support the economic reforms necessary if Brazil is to overcome its debt difficulties. Debt owed to the IMF and World Bank is only a small part of Brazil's debt.
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment has been made of the human rights record of the Brazilian Government in relation to the Amerindians of Amazonia ; and how Her Majesty's Government propose to vote in the light of such considerations on the World Bank structural adjustment loan for Brazil.
Mr. Eggar : There has been widespread concern in the United Kingdom at the constitutional provision for Amerindian landholding. We watch this closely and are in touch with interested groups. The Brazilian authorities are well aware of our concern at reports of Amerindian deaths at the hands of gold panners and settlers. Our embassy in Brasilia is monitoring developments closely. We will take account of environmental and social considerations in forming a view of the proposed second power sector loan.
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what were the projects for which loans were sought from the World Bank by Brazil during each of the last five years ; what was the outcome ; and how Her Majesty's Government instructed their representative on the World Bank executive board to vote ;
(2) what was the value of the loans made by the World Bank for each of the last five years to Brazil.
Mr. Eggar : Loans brought to the World Bank's executive board and approved in the past five years are listed in the table. It is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government to disclose instructions to our executive director.
|c|World Bank loans to Brazil: 1984-88|c|
Fiscal year ended 30 June |Amount of loan $ million |Purpose
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984 |303 |Agricultural credit.
|65.2 |Agricultural development in north west Brazil.
|22.8 |Agricultural development and Environment Project.
|7.7 |Irrigation development project in north east Brazil.
|40 |Basic education in north and central west Brazil.
|20 |Technician training.
|250.6 |Power distribution systems in north east and north west Brazil, and in low income metropolitan areas of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo.
|222.8 |Rural electrification.
|57.5 |Primary health care programme in Sao Paulo; strengthening health planning in federal government.
|352 |Expansion of small scale, export oriented manufacturing industries.
|210 |Highway rehabilitation and technical assistance.
|52.7 |Urban development in Parana.
|----
|1,604.3
1985 |100 |National Land Administration Programme.
|122.7 |Rural development in north east Brazil (2 loans).
|72 |Science and Technology education.
|400 |Electricity transmission.
|312
trialised areas.
|300 |Third development banking project for small-scale enterprises.
|200 |Financial rehabilitation of Federal Railway.
|16.3 |Water supply and sanitation in rural areas.
|----
|1,523
1986 |500 |Restructuring agricultural credit system.
|155 |Second agricultural extension project for small scale farmers.
|92 |North east rural development programme.
|57 |Irrigation project in north east Brazil.
|48 |Irrigation survey project in north east Brazil.
|500 |Power sector rehabilitation project.
|59.5 |Health project in north east Brazil.
|29 |Public sector management project.
|100 |Rehabilitation of flood damaged urban areas in the north east region.
|55 |Urban development in Salvador metropolitan region.
|24.5 |Urban development in state of Santa Catarina.
|----
|1,620
1987 |612 |7 loans for agricultural development in the states of Bahia, Ceara, Maranhao, Piau, Paraiba, Minas Gerais and Alagoas respectively.
|51 |Veterinary services.
|50 |Reduction of industrial pollution in Sao Paulo.
|74.5 |Strengthening the National Vocational Training System.
|174 |Highway rehabilitation in Sao Paulo.
|100 |Rehabilitation of Sao Paulo Railway Company.
|200 |Urban transport improvement in Brazil's nine largest cities.
|----
|1,261.5
1988 |300 |Agroindustry development.
|300 |Agriculture credit.
|195 |Infrastructure for irrigation development.
|132 |Mitigation of human cost of resettling families displaced by Itaparica reservoir.
|48.5 |Support for programme of planting of up to 165,000 hectares of forest and charcoal manufacturing infrastructure in Minas Gerais.
|109 |Health programme in north east Brazil, and help in developing an AIDS programme.
|20 |Technical assistance to improve efficiency of ports.
|175 |Reconstruction and rehabilitation following floods in Rio de Janeiro.
|80 |Water and sewerage to poor areas of urban centres.
|----
|1,359.5
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps are being taken through the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to ensure that adequate funds are available to Brazil to undertake structural adjustment programmes.
Mr. Eggar : The World Bank has lent substantial sums to support the process of structural adjustment in Brazil, and the International Monetary Fund has lent in support of stabilisation policies. An effective response by international financial institutions is dependent on the Brazilian Government promoting an adequate macroeconomic framework that will re- establish stability and permit the resumption of sustainable growth.
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will discuss with the World Bank methods of ensuring that Brazil repays its international debt on reasonable terms.
Mr. Eggar : As a member of the World Bank we participate in regular discussion of the World Bank's lending programme in Brazil. These discussions cover Brazil's ability to meet its obligations to the World Bank. Paris Club creditors agreed last July to reschedule Brazil's official debt. Official creditors are agreed that Brazil's commercial debts are a matter for Brazil to negotiate with the banks themselves. We and the World Bank have both welcomed the elements of debt reduction in the innovative menu agreement reached between Brazil and the banks last year.
Amazonia
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps to ensure that the World Bank does not make loans for projects which, if carried out, would be likely to cause environmental or rain forest damage in Amazonia.
Mr. Eggar : Environmental concerns now receive considerable attention in the World Bank, due in part to the efforts of the United Kingdom and several other members. The reorganisation of the bank in 1987 strengthened its capacity to ensure that environmental costs and benefits are systematically addressed in project appraisal.
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Brazil and Colombia
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what environmental and cultural policy guidelines govern project lending by the World Bank and the intergovernmental group on Brazil and Colombia.
Mr. Eggar : The World Bank incorporates environmental and sociological considerations as an overall part of project design. Projects and programmes are required to meet economic and social objectives based on the most efficient and sustainable use of environmental resources. Projects which might affect indigenous groups or wildlands must incorporate components to mitigate any possible adverse effects. The bank can offer help to strengthen the local implementing agencies if this is necessary to ensure the successful design and implementation of the components.
I have no information about any intergovernmental group on Brazil and Colomnbia.
Rain Forests, Amazonia
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action has been taken as a result of the acceptance of the FAO tropical forest action plan ; what was the response from the president of the World Bank to representations stressing Her Majesty's Government's belief in the importance of environmental factors in respect of other aid programmes ; and what discussions he has had with fellow donors on means of donor co-ordination in protecting rain forests in Amazonia.
Mr. Eggar : Under the tropical forestry action plan more than 50 developing countries have asked for help over the formulation and co- ordination of their national forestry policies. The plan has already led to seven forestry sector reviews being completed, and another 36 are under way.
The World Bank shares our view that the envir-onmental aspects of development must be properly taken into account.
My hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development has not had any formal discussions with other donors specifically about protecting the Amazon rain forests ; but when I visited Brazil last year I made clear to the Brazilian President the concern felt in Britain about the environmental effects of deforestation in the Amazon and that season's disastrous fires. As signatories of the international tropical timber agreement, the United Kingdom and Brazil and other donor and developing countries are pledged to encourage the development of international policies aimed at the sustainable use and conservation of tropical forests.
Amazonian Indians (Gathering)
Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what response he sent to the invitation to attend the gathering of Amazonian Indians at Altamira on 21 to 25 February.
Mr. Eggar : My hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development told the organisers that he was unable to accept the invitation because of earlier commitments but that he hoped to receive a report on the outcome of the meeting.
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Kayapo Tribe Homelands, Brazil
Mr. Wray : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what information he has of the destruction of Kayapo tribe homelands in Brazil ; and what representations he has received on that subject.
Mr. Eggar : My hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development met Chief Paulinho Paiakan of the Kayapo last November to hear his concerns for the future of his people if proposed hydroelectric power developments on the Xingu river, which would inundate a large area of rain forest, were to proceed. We understand that the Brazilian authorities are re-appraising the sites originally proposed.
St. Helena Ferry
Mr. David Porter : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the completion for the St. Helena ferry now that the Hall Russell company has gone into receivership ; and what opportunities now exist for other British shipbuilding companies to be involved.
Mr. Eggar : It remains Her Majesty's Government's intention to complete the construction of the ship in the Hall Russell shipyard at Aberdeen if possible.
UNESCO
Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make an up-to-date statement giving a breakdown, by project, of the resources reallocated to development projects resulting from the savings arising from the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.
Mr. Eggar : In the financial year 1987-88 the money saved by our withdrawal from UNESCO was re-allocated and spent as follows :
|c|Re-allocation of UNESCO savings final expenditure 1987-88|c|
|£ |£
|Committed|Spent
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Overseas Development Administration
(ODA) technical co-operation
training programme |1,872,000|1,772,848
English language training courses |799,000 |600,300
ODA shared scholarship schemes |320,000 |320,000
Foreign and Commonwealth Office
(FCO) scholarships and awards
scheme |640,000 |640,000
ODA cultural projects |100,000 |100,000
Public expenditure survey transfer to
FCO for cultural projects |100,000 |100,000
Chinese student scholarships in the
United Kingdom |950,000 |950,000
Distance learning project in
Commonwealth countries |100,000 |100,000
Nassau fellowships |500,000 |650,131
Commonwealth media development
fund |150,000 |150,000
Royal Society |112,000 |112,000
Research in arid Commonwealth
Africa |300,000 |300,000
Inter-governmental Oceanographic
Commission |96,000 |80,864
Man and the Biosphere/International
Hydrological Programme/
International Association of
Hydrological Sciences |200,000 |200,000
Dissemination of results of research |200,000 |200,000
|----- |-----
Total |6,439,000|6,276,143
Allocations for this financial year are similar.
Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary for State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was done with the £1,710,448 committed but not spent as referred to in his reply to the hon. Member for Falkirk, West on 29 July 1988, Official Report, columns 624-26, on savings arising from the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation.
Mr. Eggar : Underspending in the year in question permitted expenditure on other aid programmes. The cash limit for the year was virtually fully spent. It is not practical to identify the specific use to which these rather than other savings were put.
WALES
Housebuilding
14. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many new local authority dwellings were completed in Wales in 1988 ; and if he will give comparable figures for 1974 and 1979.
Mr. Grist : Provisional returns for 1988 show that 789 local authority dwellings were completed. Comparable figures for 1974 and 1979 are 3,046 and 3,010 dwellings respectively.
Labour Statistics
15. Mr. Roy Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what are the latest unadjusted figures for unemployment in (a) Newport, (b) Gwent and (c) Wales ; and if he will give the equivalent figures for 1979 on the most nearly comparable basis.
Mr. Peter Walker : On 12 January 1989 the number of unemployed claimants in the Newport district, Gwent and Wales were 6,173, 18,614 and 116,245 respectively, Unadjusted figures for 1979 are not available on a basis that enables a valid comparison to be made. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will welcome the continuing downward trend in seasonally adjusted unemployment in Wales, which fell by 25,800 in the last 12 months and by 62,000 in the last 34 months.
16. Mr. Win Griffiths : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many people there were in employment in (a) Wales, (b) Mid Glamorgan and (c) the travel-to-work area in which Bridgend is situated in June 1979 and the latest month for which figures are available ; and how many of these jobs were part-time.
Mr. Peter Walker : There were 1,157,000 people in employment or self -employed in Wales in June 1979. The comparable figure for June 1988 was 1,029,000. Of these, 165,000 and 190,000 respectively were female part-time employees. Figures for male part-time employees, and for Mid Glamorgan and the Bridgend travel-to-work area, are not available for the dates requested.
Column 450
Housing for Wales
17. Mr. Murphy : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of Housing for Wales ; and what matters were discussed.
Mr. Grist : My right hon. Friend and I have met the chairman of Housing for Wales on a number of occasions recently to discuss matters relevant to the setting up of the new body.
Place Names Advisory Committee
18. Mr. Barry Field : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when the place names advisory committee last met ; and what it discussed.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : The work of the place names advisory committee is carried out entirely by correspondence.
Pupil Costs
19. Mr. Knox : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much was spent per pupil in primary schools in Wales in the most recent year for which figures are available ; and what was the comparable figure for 1978- 79, at constant prices.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : The figures were £909 (in 1986-87), and £747 (in 1978-79). This represents a real terms increase of 21.7 per cent.
Hospital Waiting Lists
20. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to achieve his targets for maximum time on a waiting list for (a) operations and (b) out-patient appointments.
Mr. Grist : Health Authorities are not yet in aposition to predict when all lists will meet the targets. However, officials of the Welsh Office will be keeping a close watch on the position through six-monthly reports from authorities.
Working for Patients"
21. Dr. Marek : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he had received in response to the Welsh Office booklet entitled "Working for Patients", as to the continuance of local government representation on the reconstructed health authorities in Wales.
Road Communications
22. Mr. Flynn : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what plans he has to improve road communications in Wales.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : Outline plans will be announced in the Welsh Office commentary on the public expenditure White Paper and the detail will be provided in the forthcoming edition of "Roads in Wales."
Council of Ministers
23. Mr. Gareth Wardell : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many meetings of the Council of Ministers a Welsh Office Minister has attended since 1979 ; and which Councils they were.
Column 451
Mr. Peter Walker : It has not been the normal practice of Welsh Office Ministers to attend meetings of the European Council of Ministers since or before 1979. They have, of course, frequently met members of the European Commission since 1979 to discuss issues of importance to Wales.
Planning Appeals
24. Sir Anthony Meyer : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what percentage of appeals against refusals of planning permission by local authorities have been upheld by his Department during the last five years.
Mr. Peter Walker : Thirty-seven per cent.
Homelessness
Mr. Coleman : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will publish in the Official Report the number of people listed as homeless in each of the Welsh districts, at the latest count.
Mr. Grist : The number of persons in households accepted as homeless during the third quarter of 1988 (July-September) are shown in the table :
|c|Number of persons in households
accepted as homeless,|c|
|c|July-September 1988|c|
|Number
------------------------------------
Clwyd
Alyn and Deeside |131
Colwyn |25
Delyn |175
Glyndwr |9
Rhuddlan |49
Wrexham Maelor |310
Dyfed
Carmarthen |54
Ceredigion |57
Dinefwr |40
Llanelli |88
Preseli |50
South Pembrokeshire |76
Gwent
Blaenau Gwent |152
Islwyn |55
Monmouth |161
Newport |398
Torfaen |268
Gwynedd
Aberconwy |14
Arfon |28
Dwyfor |29
Meirionnydd |45
Ynys Mon |40
Mid Glamorgan
Cynon Valley |153
Merthyr Tydfil |47
Ogwr |319
Rhondda |98
Rhymney Valley |143
Taff Ely |75
Powys
Brecknock |40
Montgomery |44
Radnor |6
South Glamorgan
Cardiff |706
Vale of Glamorgan |247
West Glamorgan
Lliw Valley |38
Neath |169
Port Talbot/Afan |70
Swansea |125
|-------
Wales total |4,534
British Steel (Job Losses)
Mr. Alan Williams : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many meetings he personally has had with British Steel about the impending job losses in Wales and the closure of Velindre.
Mr. Peter Walker : I maintain regular contact with the company about matters of mutual interest, and I have discussed the rationalisation of tinplate production in south Wales with British Steel management. I discussed this specific closure and the prospects for dealing with job losses two weeks ago.
Welsh Water
Mr. Michael : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will give in full the terms of his communication to the European Commission seeking clearance for limiting to 15 per cent. the maximum single holding in Welsh Water after privatisation and the complete text of the European Community's reply.
Mr. Grist : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the statement made by the Commission Vice President, Sir Leon Brittan, on 7 February in which he said :
"The proposed 15 per cent. limit on a single share holding presents no difficulty under community law so long as its application is non- discriminatory".
Higher Education
Dr. Thomas : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of the institutions of higher education in Wales ; and what matters were discussed.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : My right hon. Friend and I met the
vice-chancellor of the university of Wales and the director of the polytechnic of Wales, together with a number of industrialists, on 25 July 1988. The topic of discussion was the interaction between higher education and industry.
Historic Monuments
Mr. Gwilym Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he will make a statement on the future relationship between Cadw--Welsh Historic Monuments--and the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments for Wales.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : The relationship between the Royal Commission (RCAHM(W) and Cadw--Welsh historic monuments--has been looked at in the context of a policy review of the activities and functions of the commission and the equivalent bodies for Scotland and England. This review is being conducted jointly with my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. We shall be announcing conclusions in due course.
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Meanwhile, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales has decided that certain issues of principle can be settled now in advance of the completion of the policy review. There is the question whether RCAHM(W) should be merged with Cadw and the suggestion in a consultancy report by Peat Marwick McLintock that consideration should be given to the transfer of some functions from Cadw to the Welsh Commission. Peats recommended that the Royal Commission should be retained as a separate body responsible for maintaining the national archive of heritage information and manage the NMR. My right hon. Friend and I are persuaded by this analysis and take the view that the Royal Commission should continue as a separate body. Peats emphasised that the arguments for and against the transfer of functions were finely balanced. We have decided that the Royal Commission should in future be recognised as the lead national body for oversight of the system of local sites and monuments records. In exercising this responsibility the commission would need to ensure proper liaison with Cadw regarding local decision-making and conservation of the built heritage of Wales generally.On the matter of transferring listing and scheduling to the Commission, we have concluded that as its purpose is to identify buildings and monuments which should be given special consideration in the planning and development control process, listing and scheduling should be linked to considerations of conservation, rather than record, and for that reason my right hon. Friend and I have concluded that it is more appropriate for Cadw to continue to provide advice to us on these issues.
We do believe, however, that the Royal Commission should be more formally involved in this function and that a mechanism should be established that encourages Royal Commission staff to advise Cadw on sites they may visit. We have asked Cadw to consider this and recommend as appropriate. Provided the RCAHM(W)'s input to advice on listing and scheduling is formulated in such a way we take the view that the duty placed on the Royal Commission in 1908 to make its own direct recommendations to Government on buildings "worthy of preservation" should be regarded as overtaken by the development of the statutory framework of listing and scheduling and dropped from its responsibilities.
Peats comment that as experts on heritage information, the Royal Commission is best placed to judge priorities and to deal with the rescue archaeology grant system. However, we consider that there are good policy and practical arguments for the same organisation handling all aspects of archaelogical casework--scheduled monument consent, negotiations with developers and rescue archaeology if that proves necessary. Accordingly, we feel that it is best for Cadw to continue to deal with rescue archaeology.
Whatever the future dispositions of functions may be, there will always be areas where both Cadw's and the Royal Commission's expertise and concerns need to be taken into account by each other. With these issues of principle resolved, we consider that there is now a very satisfactory basis for a supportive and constructive future relationship between the Royal Commission and Cadw. I have written to the commission's chairman to inform him of our conclusions.
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