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Mr. Ridley : To a large extent I agree with the hon. Lady, but if she wants those things put right, why does she oppose the Bill when that is what it will do?
Mrs. Taylor : The Secretary of State is well aware of the offer that the Opposition have made, and have repeated on several occasions. We will support the establishment and, indeed, the strengthening of the National Rivers Authority because that, rather than privatisation, is the way to deal with pollution.
In recent years many polluters have made the simple decision that it is cheaper to flout the law--even if they are caught--than to invest in avoiding pollution. We all pick up the bill in our water rates while the polluter gets off lightly. The Government's attitude, agreed with the water authorities, has been to try to persuade the polluters to be good boys, but that strategy simply has not worked. Now
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the Government are pushing it further by not allowing the National Rivers Authority to take decisions. The Government are pre-empting the role of the NRA by inviting water authorities to reduce standards of sewage treatment plants in advance of privatisation and the establishment of the NRA.In a letter dated 21 November 1988, the Department invited water authorities to apply for relaxations for many treatment plants which were breaching consents. Last month, a near-frantic letter pleaded with local authorities to submit plans not for the improvement of those treatment plants but for relaxations to let treatment plants in breach of consents off the hook. Although we questioned the Minister frequently in Committee, he has given no date by which he guarantees that improvements in those treatment plants will be achieved. In all our discussions in Committee and in the answers that the Minister has been forced to supply, little attention has been paid to the reasons why sewage treatment plants are unable to meet their targets and are breaching their consents. It is often trade effluent which overloads the system. New clause 1, which establishes the principle that the polluter pays, will help to prevent that. On selected occasions Ministers have used and promoted that principle, but they are not consistent and cite it only when it suits them.
Some Conservative Members have reservations about the principle that the polluters should pay. This evening we learned that the hon. Member for Pudsey (Sir G. Shaw) has reservations even about the existence of the National Rivers Authority. That is not surprising as he is chairman, or at least a member of the privatisation steering committee which has been advising and assisting the
Conservative-appointed chairmen of the water authorities on how to deal with privatisation. As my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland pointed out earlier, the water chairmen are gearing up for privatisation. It is therefore not surprising that the hon. Gentleman resists new clause 1. A letter from the secretary of the Water Authorities Association states :
"Any further strengthening of the regulatory framework now put forward would have significantly adverse consequences for the successful management of the privatised company."
The CBI has been briefing Conservative Members and its latest brief makes clear what it wants :
"We are seeking to ensure that the Government does not create a situation which would be completely unacceptable to all those discharging trade effluents".
That gets to the nub of the Government's resistance. A strong NRA and a strong regulatory framework will affect profits. The hon. Member for Pudsey was more honest than the Minister about that. Perhaps the Secretary of State was more honest than he has been throughout the proceedings of the Bill when he intervened in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland. When my hon. Friend referred to new clause 20, which suggests that the water authorities' land should, if privatisation goes ahead, pass to the National Rivers Authority, rather than to the water companies so as to ensure that the land stays in the public sector, the Secretary of State asked what was to stop the NRA developing the land. His first thought was not whether the Bill would provide better protection for the land, but whether the NRA would be able to develop the land. The Bill is about making money out of developing that land. The Secretary of State let the cat out of the bag this evening. He should
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retitle the Bill because it is not about water privatisation, but about the privatisation of the assets of the water authorities. It being Eleven o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- proceeded, pursuant to the order [6 February] and the Resolution this day, to put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, That the clause be read a Second time :--The House divided : Ayes 222, Noes 316.
Division No.126] [11 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adley, Robert
Allason, Rupert
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald
Archer, Rt Hon Peter
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)
Battle, John
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Beckett, Margaret
Beith, A. J.
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)
Bermingham, Gerald
Bidwell, Sydney
Blair, Tony
Blunkett, David
Boyes, Roland
Bradley, Keith
Bray, Dr Jeremy
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buckley, George J.
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)
Campbell-Savours, D. N.
Cartwright, John
Clark, Dr David (S Shields)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clay, Bob
Clelland, David
Clwyd, Mrs Ann
Coleman, Donald
Cook, Frank (Stockton N)
Cook, Robin (Livingston)
Corbett, Robin
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crowther, Stan
Cryer, Bob
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Cunningham, Dr John
Dalyell, Tam
Darling, Alistair
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)
Dewar, Donald
Dixon, Don
Dobson, Frank
Doran, Frank
Douglas, Dick
Dunnachie, Jimmy
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth
Eadie, Alexander
Eastham, Ken
Evans, John (St Helens N)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)
Fatchett, Derek
Faulds, Andrew
Fearn, Ronald
Field, Frank (Birkenhead)
Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)
Fisher, Mark
Flannery, Martin
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Foulkes, George
Fraser, John
Fyfe, Maria
Galbraith, Sam
Galloway, George
Garrett, John (Norwich South)
George, Bruce
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Godman, Dr Norman A.
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gordon, Mildred
Graham, Thomas
Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Harman, Ms Harriet
Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Heffer, Eric S.
Henderson, Doug
Hinchliffe, David
Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)
Home Robertson, John
Hood, Jimmy
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)
Howells, Geraint
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)
Hoyle, Doug
Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Hughes, Roy (Newport E)
Hughes, Sean (Knowsley S)
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Adam
Janner, Greville
Johnston, Sir Russell
Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)
Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)
Kennedy, Charles
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil
Kirkwood, Archy
Leadbitter, Ted
Leighton, Ron
Lestor, Joan (Eccles)
Lewis, Terry
Litherland, Robert
Livsey, Richard
Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)
Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Loyden, Eddie
McAllion, John
McAvoy, Thomas
McCartney, Ian
Macdonald, Calum A.
McFall, John
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