---

Mr. Maxton : I could not care less what the customs are in this matter. I have points to make about Scotland.

Mr. Robert G. Hughes : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Gentleman to say that he could not care less what you have said? After you explained what the conventions of the House are, I distinctly heard the hon. Gentleman say that he could not care less what you said. That is a disgraceful way in which to treat you.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am grateful to the hon. Member for defending the Chair, but I did not take it in that way.

Mr. Pike : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your guidance. Is it customary for a Minister seeking to open and reply to a debate on an order to ask for the permission of the House in any event?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is not so in the case of an order of this kind, when a Minister who opens is entitled to reply without seeking the leave of the House. Mr. Maxton.

Mr. Maxton rose --

Mr. Spearing : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not also a custom of the House, although not perhaps in Standing Orders, that when an order or a Bill is before the House that applies both to England and Scotland, and where hon. Members representing both countries have fully participated, and a Minister from the second nation is present, it is courteous for the Minister for the other nation to wind up the debate?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is a matter for Ministers rather than the Chair.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not an abuse of democracy that the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Maxton) should first challenge my hon. Friend the Minister to answer various questions, and say that he had no intention of telling the House the Labour party's policy, and now deny the Minister the opportunity of answering the questions raised by both Opposition and Conservative Members?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I repeat that it is customary for a Minister who has introduced an order to be allowed to reply.

Mr. Maxton : It is customary, but there are no rules that say it has to be the case. I shall answer one of the questions posed by both the hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) and the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett).

We were asked whether we were prepared to allow any increase in housing benefit, whatever the cost. I will tell

---

Column 1060

him. On 1 April this year, private landlords in Scotland who, up to now, have been asking for a combined rent and rates--

Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire, West) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can you confirm that the debate is due to end at 1.42 am? The consequence of the Labour Front-Bench filibuster is that my hon. Friend the Minister will not have a chance to reply to the debate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I confirm that the debate must end at 1.42 am.

Mr. Maxton : The point I was making, when the hon. Gentleman interrupted, was that on 1 April there will be landlords in Scotland--

It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 14 (Exempted business).

The House divided : Ayes 134, Noes 96.

Division No. 128] [1.42 am

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

Ashby, David

Bellingham, Henry

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blackburn, Dr John G.

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Bowis, John

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Buck, Sir Antony

Budgen, Nicholas

Burt, Alistair

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Cash, William

Chope, Christopher

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cope, Rt Hon John

Couchman, James

Cran, James

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Day, Stephen

Devlin, Tim

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Dover, Den

Dunn, Bob

Durant, Tony

Fallon, Michael

Favell, Tony

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fishburn, John Dudley

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Franks, Cecil

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Gale, Roger

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Hayes, Jerry

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Heddle, John

Hind, Kenneth

Howard, Michael

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, David (Wirral W)

Hunter, Andrew

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Jones, Robert B (Herts W)

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knowles, Michael

Lang, Ian

Lawrence, Ivan

Lester, Jim (Broxtowe)

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lord, Michael

Lyell, Sir Nicholas

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mans, Keith

Marshall, John (Hendon S)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Maude, Hon Francis

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Morrison, Sir Charles

Moss, Malcolm

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Neubert, Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Norris, Steve

Oppenheim, Phillip

Paice, James

Porter, David (Waveney)

---