House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 Apr 1989

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Wise, Mrs Audrey

Worthington, Tony

Tellers for the Noes :

Mrs. Llin Golding and

Mr. Ken Eastham.

Question accordingly agreed to .

Amendments made : No. 37, in page 25, line 44, leave out from cost' to during' in line 45 and insert

to the supplier of purchasing or generating any electricity supplied by him'.

No. 38, in page 26, line 1, after cost,' insert to him'. No. 39, in page 26, line 4, leave out the regulations' and insert regulations under this section and excluding, in the case of the cost mentioned in paragraph (a) above, any advance payments taken into account under subsection (2A) above'.

No. 40, in page 26, line 14, after sufficient', insert (after payment of the administrative expenses of the prescribed person)'.

No. 41, in page 26, line 17, at end insert--

"advance payment" means--

(a) any payment made by the public electricity supplier in pursuance of the qualifying arrangements ; and

(b) where he is generating electricity in pursuance of those arrangements, any expense so incurred by him,

which is made or incurred before any electricity is generated in pursuance of those arrangements, and any reference to the making of advance payments shall be construed accordingly ;'.

No. 42, in page 26, line 21, leave out

the order under section 30(1)'

and insert

an order under section 30'.

No. 43, in page 26, line 25, leave out from the' to end of line 26 and insert

first day appointed by the first order under section 30 above or, if that'. -- [Mr. Michael Spicer.]

Clause 32

Fuel stocks etc. at generating stations

6.30 pm

Mr. Michael Spicer : I beg to move amendment No. 44, in page 27, line 26, at end insert--

(4A) A direction under subsection (2) or (3) above which confers on any person the function of specifying anything failing to be specified under the direction may require that person to exercise that function in such manner as may be specified by the direction.' This is essentially a technical amendment, designed to provide an additional and necessary element of flexibility to the

direction-making powers in the clause. It allows the Secretary of State, when giving directions to the operators of generating stations, to give directions to the National Grid Company also. Clearly, that makes sense. It seemed to us right to underline that in the Bill. Amendment agreed to.

Clause 33

Consent required for construction etc. of generating stations

The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Ian Lang) : I beg to move amendment No. 45, in page 28, line 1, leave out subsection (2)' and insert subsections (2) and (2A)'.

Mr. Speaker : With this it will be convenient to consider Government amendments Nos. 48, 46, 97, 99 and 100.

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Mr. Lang : We have put down these amendments to clause 33, which provides for consent to be obtained for the construction, extension or operation of generating stations. The proposed amendments will provide a degree of flexibility if, for example, we wish to exclude certain types of station from the consent required should the 50 MW threshold be lowered at any time in the future. The amendments will also enable certain types of works in connection with generating stations, or certain changes in operation, to be exempted from the consent requirement if the Secretary of State considers it more appropriate that they should be dealt with under normal planning procedures.

Amendment No. 46 refers to fees accompanying applications. We have decided that, in future, fees should be payable with such applications. No such power exists under present legislation, and I think that the House would agree that it has long been anomalous that the Department's costs have not been recoverable.

Amendments Nos. 97 and 99 relate to the deeming of the granting of hazardous substances consent. New paragraph (1A) parallels a provision to be inserted into the Town and Country Planning Act 1971 and the Town and Country (Scotland) Act 1972 by part IV of the Housing and Planning Act 1986, which the Government intend to bring in force later this year.

Part IV of the 1986 Act will introduce new controls over hazardous substances. Under the provisions to be introduced by the Act in relation to statutory undertakers, a Minister will be able to deem to be granted hazardous substances consent where a hazardous substance will be present on a development for which his authorisation is required. This does not imply any diminution of scrutiny of any hazardous substance aspect of any application.

The purpose of the amendment is to simplify the procedures for those making applications under clause 33. Not all such applicants will be deemed to be statutory undertakers, and the relevant provision under part IV of the 1986 Act will not, therefore, be applicable in all cases. It is because of this that a free-standing provision in relation to deemed planning permission is already included in paragraph 7(1) of schedule 8. A similar free-standing provision is necessary to enable the Secretary of State to deem hazardous substances consent to be granted, where appropriate, in granting consent under clause 33.

The new paragraph requires the Secretary of State to consult the Health and Safety Commission before deeming a hazardous substances consent to be granted. This requirement is consistent with the parallel provision to be introduced under the Housing and Planning Act 1986.

Amendment No. 100 is a consolidation amendment, which also corrects an error in the original drafting.

Mr. Doran : I wish to raise some minor points of clarification. As I understand it, amendment No. 48 will give the Secretary of State the power to order that certain power stations of the classes or descriptions that he will specify should not require his special consent. Under the terms of clause 33(2), power stations of under 50 MW generating capacity are already excluded, so I should like clarification of why that power is required. Does the Minister envisage that larger power stations--and if my memory serves me correctly, the 50 MW capacity can already be altered by order-- would be excluded if they fell into a particular category?

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In relation to amendment No. 97, the Opposition always get nervous when we feel that the Health and Safety Commission is being excluded or is not being given its proper place. Obviously I am conscious that the amendment would require it to be consulted, but in what circumstances would that be, and what change in the existing procedure is envisaged? My understanding is that at present the specific permission of the Health and Safety Commission--not just consultation--is required for the granting of a hazardous substance consent.

May I please have clarification on those two points?

Mr. Eadie : The Minister talked about fees having to be paid. He said that the House would probably be astonished to find that the Department's fees had never been recoverable. I wonder if he could tell us something about the circumstances, and about the sums that are likely to be involved.

Mr. Lang : I shall try to answer the three points that have been put to me.

As I explained in the context of amendment No. 48, we were anxious to have a degree of flexibility--for example, in case we might want to exclude certain types of stations from the consent requirement if we were to reduce the 50 MW threshold at any time in the future. It is also worth mentioning that the amendments would enable generating stations on offshore oil and gas installations which operate for the generators' own use to be exempted from the consent requirement. The hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Doran), particularly with his constituency interest, will know that there are special provisions under the Offshore Installations Act which cover offshore platforms, but that is an example of the kind of thing that we might wish to exclude from the provisions here.

The hon. Member is concerned about the implications for the Health and Safety Commission. Let me reassure him that under part IV of the 1986 Act we are tightening up the controls over substances of this kind, such as chlorine, hydrogen and asbestos. The amendments bring the Bill into line with the thinking behind that Act. As I have mentioned, the Secretary of State would be required to consult the Health and Safety Commission before deeming a hazardous substances consent to be granted.

In respect of the point raised by the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr. Eadie), it is difficult to be precise about the fees. They would tend to relate to the land involved in the application and would, therefore, form a very small proportion of the overall costs of any project in the context of the construction of a generating station. However, I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that it is in line with our general policy that such costs should be recovered. The provision would bring the situation into line with the arrangements for other planning applications.

Mr. Eadie : I know that the hon. Gentleman has made a statement about fees and costs, but would he care to write to me, when he has had an opportunity to consider the matter, and tell me what the cost is likely to be? Ministers are bound to have some idea.

Mr. Lang : How long is a piece of string? Certainly I will write to the hon. Gentleman--I am keen to be helpful. I am not sure that there is much more that I will be able to say to him, but I shall try to give some hypothetical cases, which I hope will assist.

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Amendment agreed to.

Amendment made : No. 48, in page 28, line 13, at end insert-- (2A) The Secretary of State may by order direct that subsection (1) above shall not apply to generating stations of a particular class or description, either generally or for such purposes as may be specified in the order.'.-- [Mr. Michael Spicer.]

Schedule 8

Consents under sections

33 and-- 34

Amendments made : No. 46 in page 98, line 37, at end insert-- (3) Regulations under this paragraph may make provision for determining the fees to be paid on applications for consent under section 33 or 34 of this Act, and the circumstances in which they are to be paid.

(4) Any sums received by the Secretary of State under this paragraph shall be paid into the Consolidated Fund.'.

No. 97, in page 101, line 40, at end insert--

(1A) On granting a consent under section 33 of this Act in respect of any operation or change of use that would involve the presence of a hazardous substance in circumstances requiring hazardous substances consent, the Secretary of State may, after consultation with the Health and Safety Commission, direct that hazardous substances consent shall be deemed to be granted, subject to such conditions (if any) as may be specified in the direction.'. No. 99, in page 101, line 42, after permission', insert or hazardous substances consent'.

No. 100, in page 102, line 7, at end insert--

(2) In section 149 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980, each of the following, namely--

(a) subsection (3)(a) (power of Secretary of State to confer on urban development corporation functions of local planning authority in England and Wales) ; and

(b) subsection (8)(a) (which makes corresponding provision in relation to Scotland),

shall have effect in relation to the provisions of this Schedule (so far as applying to applications for consent under section 34 of this Act) as it has effect in relation to the provisions referred to in that subsection.'.- - [Mr. Michael Spicer.]

Schedule 9

Preservation of Amenity and Fisheries

Mr. Malcolm Bruce : I beg to move amendment No. 118, in page 102, line 10, leave out paragraphs 1 and 2 and insert--

Code of Practice for Environmental Conservation : England and Wales 1.--(1) The Secretary of State in consultation with the Director General shall by order made by statutory instrument issue a code of practice with respect to the environmental and recreational duties for the purpose of :

(a) requiring, when formulating or considering any relevant proposals, each of the following, namely, any licence holder, any person authorised by an exemption to generate electricity, the Director and the Secretary of State,

(i) to further the conservation of the natural beauty and amenity of the countryside (including its flora and fauna and geological and physiographical features) and of any features of archaelogical interest there ;

(ii) to further the protection of buildings, features and other objects of architectural or historic interest ; and

(iii) to promote energy conservation.

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(b) giving advice to any licence holder, and any person authorised by exemption to generate electricity, with respect to any of the requirements in subsection 1(a) above.

(2) In fulfilling their responsibilities those named in subsection 1 above shall :

(a) take into account any effect the proposals would have on the natural beauty of the countryside or on any such flora, fauna, features, buildings or objects, as described in subsection 1(a) above.

(3) In subsection (1) relevant proposals' means :

(a) in relation to any licence holder or any person authorised by an exemption to generate electricity, any proposals, programme or series of proposals :

(i) for the construction, extension or operation of a generating station ;

(ii) for the installation of an electric line, whether above or below ground ;

(iii) for the execution of any other works for or connection with the generation, transmission or supply of electricity ;

(b) in relation to the Director any proposals, programme or series of proposals which arise as a result of his general duties to promote the generation, and efficient use, of electricity ;

(4) In fulfilling their responsibilities under this section those named in subsection 1 shall consult on any proposals as defined in subsection (3) above with the Countryside Commission, the Nature Conservancy Council, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England and the Historic Buildings Council for Wales.

(5) The Secretary of State shall prior to issuing an order under this section in consultation with the Director General, take into account the views of the Countryside Commission, The Nature Conservancy Council, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England and Wales, the Historic Buildings Council for Wales and other persons it is reasonable to expect him to consult.

(6) A person who, contravenes or fails to comply with an order issued under this section shall be liable--

(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum ;

(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine.

(7) Any person shall be entitled to lay a complaint of breach of any order under this section at any magistrates' court in England and Wales.

(8) This paragraph extends to England and Wales only.

Code of Practice for Environmental Conservation : Scotland 2.--(1) The Secretary of State in consultation with the Scottish Office of the Director General shall by order made by statutory instrument issue a code of practice with respect to environmental and recreational duties in Scotland for the purpose of :

(ii) to further the protection of buildings, features and other objects of architectural or historic interest ;

(iii) to promote energy conservation ;

(iv) to, without prejudice to the generality of subsections 2(1)(a)(i) and (ii) above, to avoid causing injury, so far as possible, to fisheries or to the stock of fish in any waters ; (

(b) giving advice to any licence holder, and any authorised by exemption to generate electricity, with respect to any of the requirements in subsection 1(a) above ;

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(2) In fulfilling their responsibilities those named in subsection 1 above shall :

(a) take into account any effect the proposals would have on the natural beauty of the countryside or on any such flora, fauna, features, buildings or objects, as described in subsection 1(a) above ;

(3) In subsection 1 relevant proposals' means :

(a) in relation to any licence holder or any person authorised by an exemption to generate electricity, any proposals, programme or series of proposals :

(i) for the construction, extension or operation of a generating station ;

(ii) for the installation of an electric line, whether above or below ground ;

(iii) for the execution of any other works for or connection with the generation, transmission or supply of electricity ;

(b) in relation to the Director any proposals, programme or series of proposals which arise as a result of his general duties to promote the generation, and efficient use, of electricity ;

(4) In fulfilling their responsibilities under this section those named in subsection (1) shall consult on any proposals as defined in subsection (3) above with the Countryside Commission for Scotland, the Nature Conservancy Council, the Fisheries Committee, the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland and the Ancient Monuments Board for Scotland.

(5) The Secretary of State shall prior to issuing an order under this section in consultation with the Director General's office in Scotland, take into account the views of the Countryside Commission for Scotland, the Nature Conservancy Council, the Fisheries Committee, the Ancient Monuments Board for Scotland and the Historic Buildings Council for Scotland, and other persons it is reasonable to expect him to consult.

(6) A person who contravenes or fails to comply with an order issued under this section shall be liable--

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