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Mr. Haynes : I think that I will stay a bit longer, because they are a bit upset over yonder. The Minister always tells me that he loves Frank Haynes to be called. He knows that I will have a go at him, but I am a different man in here from what I am outside, because in here I fight like a dog for what I believe in--a mad dog too, perhaps. I will fight for what I believe in in the same way as the great grandfather of the hon. Member for Pembroke (Mr. Bennett) did. He must be turning in his grave at some of the things that the hon. Gentleman has done in this Chamber. The great grandfather of the hon. Gentleman was a fighter for the working class people, especially the lower paid workers. When I was a young lad, people worked in the pits for peanuts. Safety came last and profits were at the top of the list for the coal owners. That is what Toryism is all about. People, especially in this country, know what Socialism is about, and, by God, soon they will get some more Socialism and we will get some more fairness in the interests of the people and not just of certain individuals.

A lot of the company bosses are feeding money into the Conservative party funds, and there is a connection here. I believe that the Minister has taken that point well home. I think that he understands what I am trying to say to him. The message is coming over to the electorate loud and clear. The next election cannot come soon enough, and we will win it. The tragedy is that I will not be coming back here after it. I have enjoyed my time here and I will enjoy what is left. No doubt, in the future I will have something to say to the Minister about his policies.

I am asking the Government to back off and accept what we have said. The amendment does not go as far as I would like, but at least the Democrats are going part of the way.

Mr. Barron : They are Liberals.

Column 174

Mr. Haynes : No, they tell me that they are Democrats. I am not going to argue about it. The Democrats are going part of the way. Because the Labour amendment has not been selected, we are forced to go along with the Democrats' suggestion. We support them to the hilt. We will be in the Division Lobby with them, and I hope that some Tories will be with us.

Mr. Wallace : I think that the Minister said that if Ministers lived in the real world, hope would triumph--he went on to prove that they do not --but he made that comment late at night and perhaps did not mean to phrase it in that way. It outlined what many of us have found throughout the debate--no matter how reasonable we try to make our amendments, the Government do not meet them even a third or a half of the way.

As for the real world, the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Haynes) made a valid point--

Mr. Haynes : Several.

Mr. Wallace : Several valid points, but one in particular about the £150. We are talking about people not just on low pay but on no pay, which is why they go to an industrial tribunal. That sum may be the maximum amount to be paid, but it is a colossal sum for them. Its imposition may debar people from seeking justice.

I am not always satisfied by assurances from Ministers that "these matters will appear in regulations." If that is so, the Government should have nothing to fear in laying down statutory parameters. I accept the Minister's comment that the term "such person" is necessary to cover this group of chairmen of tribunals. For that reason, I will not seek a Division on amendment No. 35. Amendment No. 36 goes more to the heart of what we have been driving at. Although we would prefer to have no deposit, our proposal is more realistic than the Government's provision.

Amendment negatived.

Amendment proposed, No. 36, in page 12, line 31, leave out £150' and insert £50'.-- [Mr. Wallace.]

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided : Ayes 24, Noes 106.

Division No. 227] [3.13 am


Alton, David

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barron, Kevin

Cryer, Bob

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Dixon, Don

Foster, Derek

Golding, Mrs Llin

Haynes, Frank

Home Robertson, John

Howells, Geraint

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Kennedy, Charles

McCartney, Ian

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

Meale, Alan

Nellist, Dave

Richardson, Jo

Skinner, Dennis

Strang, Gavin

Wareing, Robert N.

Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Archy Kirkwood and

Mr. James Wallace.


Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Batiste, Spencer

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Chapman, Sydney

Coombs, Anthony (Wyre F'rest)

Cope, Rt Hon John

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Devlin, Tim

Dorrell, Stephen

Column 175

Durant, Tony

Fishburn, John Dudley

Forth, Eric

Fowler, Rt Hon Norman

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Goodhart, Sir Philip

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hague, William

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Heddle, John

Hind, Kenneth

Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A)

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, David (Wirral W)

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Knapman, Roger

Knowles, Michael

Lee, John (Pendle)

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lyell, Sir Nicholas

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Maude, Hon Francis

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Moss, Malcolm

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Neale, Gerrard

Neubert, Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Norris, Steve

Paice, James

Patnick, Irvine

Raffan, Keith

Redwood, John

Ridley, Rt Hon Nicholas

Rowe, Andrew

Ryder, Richard

Sackville, Hon Tom

Sainsbury, Hon Tim

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Shersby, Michael

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Speller, Tony

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Summerson, Hugo

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thurnham, Peter

Townend, John (Bridlington)

Trippier, David

Trotter, Neville

Twinn, Dr Ian

Waddington, Rt Hon David

Waller, Gary

Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

Watts, John

Wells, Bowen

Widdecombe, Ann

Wood, Timothy

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Michael Fallon and

Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory.

Question accordingly negatived.

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