House of Commons Hansard Debates for 23 Oct 1989

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how new clause 13 will work in practice. We ask for that monitoring ; and we have another request. It is important that the monitoring should take place in the spirit of our exchanges this evening. I feel that Parliament would want an early opportunity to find out what that monitoring would mean and how it would work in practice. Only with that experience of an extremely delicate matter--and we acknowledge its delicacy--would the House be absolutely confident in reaching its final conclusion.

Mr. Mellor : I am grateful to the House for this debate. Even those who have felt unable to agree with new clause 13 have, nevertheless, been at pains to point out their recognition of the strenuous efforts made to try to resolve the matter to the satisfaction of all and I am grateful for that. I am especially grateful for the courtesy of the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) and I was most touched by his remarks.

The hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Vaz) knows only too well that we considered carefully his child production notice and I am grateful to him not only for his having given us the benefit of his experience, which I recognise to be considerable, in stating with great clarity why he did not like our proposal, but for going to a great deal of trouble to put forward a proposal that he considered worthy of consideration. I want to assure him that we considered the matter carefully, as he knows from discussions with my officials. There are several reasons why I felt unable to agree to the child production notice. First, it would involve an action that we have aspired to remove from the law on children, which is the ability of a local authority, or any other body, to take substantial control of the situation by administrative action, rather than by court order. All of us wanted to give the court control over these issues. Obtaining a child production notice, serving it and placing a requirement on parents on the judgment and say-so of the local authority alone would be going back on our action at an earlier stage of the Bill to remove the right of local authorities to take by administrative action any form of parental control over the child. Secondly, I could not put out of my mind the fact that new clause 5 provides only for production of the child. Taken literally, that could mean merely showing the child briefly and fully clothed to a doctor or nurse, but refusing any further contact, examination or assessment and that would seem to fall short of what is required. I appreciate that one is between Scylla and Charybdis. The Scylla is that we are being too draconian and the Charybdis is that we are passing into law an order that will be ineffective. I take some comfort from the fact that both the hon. Member for Leicester, East and his hon. Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mr. Hinchliffe), who opposed the new clause 13, were in favour of a production order that, as they envisaged it, would allow for one medical examination. If that could be effective, I cannot help but feel that a seven-day order could be effective. If that seems too draconian, I must point out that seven days would be unlikely to be seven consecutive days in which a child was taken away from parents, so it would be far less draconian than the alternative to which the hon. Gentlemen were driven back in their arguments, which is the eight-week interim care order. That has the effect of taking over parental control of the child. I was grateful to the hon.

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Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell) because he proved, as he often proves with his commonsense views on this issue, that it was worth pursuing this idea. I do not believe that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough would have spoken in favour of the order if we had not made the changes that we have. While we may not have been able to take everyone with us on the issue, we have progressed a good way along the road.

My hon. Friend the Member for Billericay (Mrs. Gorman) should be aware that, under subsection (8) of the new clause, any child with full understanding may refuse a medical examination--

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Ordered,

That, at this day's sitting, the Children Bill [ Lords ] may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any hour.-- [Mr. Fallon.] Question again proposed, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Mellor : As I was saying, subsection (8) effectively provides what my hon. Friend the Member for Billericay asked for. In relation to my hon. Friend's additional point about a child of whatever age protesting and not wanting to be subjected to an examination, even if it were deemed that it was not a child with full understanding of the process, I do not believe that any medical practitioner would carry out a medical examination if a child resisted it. I believe that that would be in line with what we know about medical ethics.

While I appreciate that there cannot, alas, be full agreement, I suspect that there was a more substantial measure of agreement in this debate than many might have thought possible when we introduced the proposal. I believe that that agreement has vindicated our approach. I will consider the comments made by the hon. Member for Monklands, West about monitoring. I will discuss with the Association of Directors of Social Services ways in which we can keep tabs on what is happening with a view to having an early look at the effectiveness or otherwise of the proposal. I will write to the hon. Gentleman about that.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Mr. Vaz : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When will the House have an opportunity to vote on new clause 5?

Mr. Speaker : I do not think that it would be appropriate to vote on new clause 5 because new clause 13 has been agreed to. In any event, it would not fall for a vote until quite late on when we reach it on the Amendment Paper--probably, in terms of our progress, not until tomorrow.

Mr. Vaz : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are your saying that we can vote on new clause 5 after new clause 4?

Mr. Speaker : No. On the contrary. It would not be appropriate in view of the fact that new clause 13 has been agreed to.

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New Clause 14

Refuges for children at risk

--(1) Where it is proposed to use a voluntary home or registered children's home to provide a refuge for children who appear to be at risk of harm, the Secretary of State may issue a certificate under this section with respect to that home.

(2) Where a local authority or voluntary organisation arrange for a foster parent to provide such a refuge, the Secretary of State may issue a certificate under this section with respect to that foster parent.

(3) In subsection (2) "foster parent" means a person who is, or who from time to time is, a local authority foster parent or a foster parent with whom children are placed by a voluntary organisation. (4) The Secretary of State may by regulations--

(a) make provision as to the manner in which certificates may be issued ;

(b) impose requirements which must be complied with while any certificate is in force ; and

(5) Where a certificate is in force with respect to a home, none of the provisions mentioned in subsection (7) shall apply in relation to any person providing a refuge for any child in that home.

(6) Where a certificate is in force with respect to a foster parent, none of those provisions shall apply in relation to the provision by him of a refuge for any child in accordance with arrangements made by the local authority or voluntary organisations. (7) The provisions are--

(a) section 43 ;

(b) section 71 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 (harbouring children who have absconded from residential establishments etc.), so far as it applies in relation to anything done in England and Wales ;

(c) section 32(3) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 (compelling, persuading, inciting or assisting any person to be absent from detention etc), so far as it applies in relation to anything done in England and Wales ;

(d) section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984.'-- [Mr. Mellor.] Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Mellor : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Speaker : With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 114 and 117.

Mr. Mellor : New clause 14 will bring great pleasure to many hon. Members who were concerned about the provision of refuges for run-away youngsters, about which the Children's Society was concerned. Those concerns were raised by several hon. Members in correspondence and in the House. They were raised also in Standing Committee on behalf of the Children's Society by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridgeshire, South- East (Mr. Paice), whom I am glad to see present today in the Chamber. Those concerns related to whether the existence of a refuge might be construed by the courts as an inducement to young people to stay away from home, thus placing in jeopardy organisations providing that valuable service.

I am glad to say that the revised new clause meets those concerns. It provides that organisations and persons providing refuges may be issued with a certificate by the Secretary of State and that where a certificate is in force those running the refuge, whether in children's homes or as foster parents, cannot be prosecuted for offences involving, for example, harbouring.

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Regulations under the new clause will impose rigorous requirements on those running refuges and those acting for the Secretary of State will examine those seeking certificates with great care. Bona fide organisations will have no difficulty in complying with those requirements. I am quite sure that I speak for the whole House in expressing pleasure that we have been able to bring forward this new clause to meet the legitimate concerns of the Children's Society and others.

Mr. Tom Clarke : I welcome the new clause and the Minister's remarks. Hon. Members almost certainly receive more correspondence on this issue than on any other. The Children's Society has already acknowledged the progress that has been made. Perhaps the spirit of the Bill is reflected in what the House is about to agree. We have always argued that the interests of the child should be paramount. A child who, for whatever reason, has left home has the right to have two or three days in which to think out his or her situation in a calm manner without the Children's Society, for example, being threatened with action for harbouring. That represents progress. I am sure that Opposition Members welcome what the Minister has said.

Mr. James Paice (Cambridgeshire, South-East) : I appreciate the way in which my hon. and learned Friend has resolved the difficulties in this issue. When the Bill left the other place, there was great concern about the ambiguity of the Lord Chancellor's remarks on Third Reading and about whether the Government intended simply to deal with children who had run away from care or those who had run away from home. My hon. and learned Friend will be aware of the several exchanges that have taken place between us and with the Children's Society in endeavouring to make sure that we have a clear form of words.

The problem was that there was debate between lawyers on whether the initially proposed amendments fitted the Bill. I am delighted that my hon. and learned Friend has been able to meet the various requirements put forward by the Children's Society. About 10,000 children are believed to be missing in London each year. Obviously, it is important that the work of the Children's Society, safe houses and refuges should be allowed to continue unhindered. I welcome the clause because it finally makes sure that the Children's Society is acting within the law rather than outside it.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New clause 15

Provision of accommodation by voluntary organisations

.--(1) Where a voluntary organisation provide accommodation for a child, they shall do so by--

(a) placing him (subject to subsection (2) ) with--

(i) a family ;

(ii) a relative of his ; or

(iii) any other suitable person,

on such terms as to payment by the organisation and otherwise as the organisation may determine ;

(b) maintaining him in a voluntary home ;

(d) maintaining him in a registered children's home ;

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(e) maintaining him in a home provided by the Secretary of State under section 74(5) on such terms as the Secretary of State may from time to time determine ; or

(f) making such other arrangements (subject to subsection (3) ) as seem appropriate to them.

(2) The Secretary of State may make regulations as to the placing of children with foster parents by voluntary organisations and the regulations may, in particular, make provision which (with any necessary modifications) is similar to the provision that may be made under section 20(2)(a).

(3) The Secretary of State may make regulations as to the arrangements which may be made under subsection (1)(f) and the regulations may in particular make provision which (with any necessary modifications) is similar to the provision that may be made under under section 20(2)(f).

(4) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring any voluntary organisation who are providing accommodation for a child-- (

(a) to review his case ; and

(b) to consider any representations (including any complaint) made to them by any person falling within a prescribed class of person, in accordance with the provisions of the regulations.

(5) Regulations under subsection (4) may in particular make provision which (with any necessary modifications) is similar to the provision that may be made under section 23.

(6) Regulations under subsections (2) to (4) may provide that any person who, without reasonable excuse, contravenes or fails to comply with a regulation shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.'.-- [Mr. Mellor.]

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 16

Application to Channel Islands

. Her Majesty may by Order in Council direct that any of the provisions of this Act shall extend to any of the Channel Islands with such exceptions and modifications as may be specified in the Order.'.-- [Mr. Mellor.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Mellor : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : With this it will be convenient to take Government amendment No. 311.

Mr. Mellor : This new clause is a general provision which empowers Her Majesty, by Order in Council, to extend provisions in the Bill to the Channel Islands.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 17

Legal aid

.--(1) The Legal Aid Act 1988 is amended as mentioned in subsections (2) to (4).

(2) In section 15 (availability of, and payment for, representation under provisions relating to civil legal aid), for the words "and (3)" in subsection (1) there shall be substituted "to (3B)" ; and the following subsections shall be inserted after subsection (3)-- "(3A) Representation under this Part shall not be available (

(a) to any local authority ; or

(b) to any other body which falls within a prescribed description, for the purposes of any proceedings under the Children Act 1989. (3B) Regardless of subsection (2) or (3), representation under this Part must be granted where a child who is brought

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before a court under section 22 of the 1989 Act (use of accommodation for restricting liberty) is not, but wishes to be, legally represented before the court."

(3) In section 19(5) (scope of provisions about criminal legal aid), at the end of the definition of "criminal proceedings" there shall be added "and also includes proceedings under section 15 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 (variation and discharge of supervision orders) and section 16(8) of that Act (appeals in such proceedings)".

(4) Sections 27, 28 and 30(1) and (2) (provisions about legal aid in care, and other, proceedings in relation to children) shall cease to have effect.

(5) The Lord Chancellor may by order make such further amendments in the Legal Aid Act 1988 as he considers necessary or expedient in consequence of any provision made by or under this Act.'.-- [Mr. Mellor.]

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 18

Jurisdiction of courts

.--(1) The name "domestic proceedings", given to certain proceedings in magistrates' courts, is hereby changed to "family proceedings" and the names "domestic court" and "domestic court panel" are hereby changed to "family proceedings court" and "family panel", respectively.

(2) Proceedings under this Act shall be treated as family proceedings in relation to magistrates' courts.

(3) Subsection (2) is subject to the provisions of section 65(1) and (2) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (proceedings which may be treated as not being family proceedings), as amended by this Act. (4) A magistrates' court shall not be competent to entertain any application, or make any order, involving the administration or application of--

(a) any property belonging to or held in trust for a child ; or (

(b) the income of any such property.

(5) The powers of a magistrates' court under section 63(2) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 to suspend or rescind orders shall not apply in relation to any order made under this Act.

(6) Part I of Schedule ( Jurisdiction ) makes provision, including provision for the Lord Chancellor to make orders, with respect to the jurisdiction of courts and justices of the peace in relation to-- (

(a) proceedings under this Act ; and

(b) proceedings under certain other enactments.

(7) For the purposes of this Act "the court" means the High Court, a county court or a magistrates' court.

(8) Subsection (7) is subject to the provision made by or under Part I of Schedule ( Jurisdiction ) and to any express provision as to the jurisdiction of any court made by any other provision of this Act.

(9) The Lord Chancellor may by order make provision for the principal registry of the Family Division of the High Court to be treated as if it were a county court for such purposes of this Act, or of any provision made under this Act, as may be specified in the order.

(10) Any order under subsection (9) may make such provision as the Lord Chancellor thinks expedient for the purpose of applying (with or without modifications) provisions which apply in relation to the procedure in county courts to the principal registry when it acts as if it were a county court.

(11) Part II of Schedule ( Jurisdiction ) makes amendments consequential on this section.'.-- [Mr. Mellor.]

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New clause 19

Welfare of children accommodated in independent schools

.--(1) It shall be the duty of--

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(a) the proprietor of any independent school which provides accommodation for any child ; and

(b) any person who is not the proprietor of such a school but who is responsible for conducting it,

to safeguard and promote the child's welfare.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a school which is a children's home or a residential care home.

(3) Where accommodation is provided for a child by an independent school within the area of a local authority, the authority shall take such steps as are reasonably practicable to enable them to determine whether the child's welfare is adequately safeguarded and promoted while he is accommodated by the school.

(4) Where a local authority are of the opinion that there has been a failure to comply with subsection (1) in relation to a child provided with accommodation by school within their area, they shall notify the Secretary of State.

(5) Any person authorised by a local authority may, for the purpose of enabling the authority to discharge their duty under this section, enter at any reasonable time an independent school within their area which provides accommodation for any child.

(6) Any person entering an independent school in exercise of the power conferred by subsection (5) may carry out such inspection of premises, children and records as is prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of this section. (7) Any person exercising that power shall, if asked to do so, produce some duly authenticated document showing his authority to do so.

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(8) Any person authorised by the regulations to inspect records-- (

(a) shall be entitled at any reasonable time to have access to, and inspect and check the operation of, any computer and any associated apparatus or material which is or has been in use in connection with the records in question ; and

(b) may require--

(i) the person by whom or on whose behalf the computer is or has been so used ; or

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