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sector because they do not feel that the Bill deals adequately with the question of who is a fit person. New clause 4 makes minimal additions to the definition. I am not able to accept the Minister's assurances.1.15 am
We have clearly and consistently said throughout the Bill's passage that registration is a public responsibility. Therefore, the issues are not charges on the market mechanism. I do not believe that people are motivated by the cash nexus. This may be the difference between the two sides of the House.
It is as important to have public responsibility for regulating the private sector as to have it for regulating the voluntary sector. The National Childminding Association, for example, has told the Minister that it would be worried if differential charges were introduced. It believes that some hard-pressed local authorities would feel that they had to take account of the views of the people from whom they got their income first. Some authorities already have great waiting lists for registration of child minders. Part of our aim was to ensure that those lists were reduced. Some authorities have argued strongly with the Government that differential charges would bring problems into the processes of registration and inspection. The Government have failed to address this issue. In any case, if independent schools are not to be charged, how does one justify charging even private nurseries? I have yet to meet representatives of any such nurseries who claim to deliver quality care with trained workers and can make a profit. I have visited a private nursery which employs only five qualified workers. Its minimum charge, operating on a non-profit basis, is £105 per week. Anyone who is making a profit can be doing so only at the expense of quality, and we want to ensure that that does not happen.
Registration is a public issue which affects all of us. No matter where a child is placed--in the public, the private or the voluntary domain--I want to be able to say to the parent, "The regulations are such that we are confident about the quality of the service on offer in this establishment."
I am sorry that I cannot respond to the Minister's entreaties--
Mr. Nicholas Soames (Crawley) : Blandishments.
Ms. Armstrong : --and I will not accept his blandishments. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :
The House divided : Ayes 49, Noes 126.
Division No. 336] [1.18 am
AYES
Armstrong, Hilary
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)
Battle, John
Beckett, Margaret
Beith, A. J.
Bell, Stuart
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buckley, George J.
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)
Clay, Bob
Clelland, David
Cohen, Harry
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cryer, Bob
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Dixon, Don
Fearn, Ronald
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Derek
Gordon, Mildred
Hardy, Peter
Hinchliffe, David
Home Robertson, John
Hughes, John (Coventry NE)
Illsley, Eric
Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)
Kirkwood, Archy
Leadbitter, Ted
Lofthouse, Geoffrey
McCartney, Ian
Column 811
Madden, MaxMeale, Alan
Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Pike, Peter L.
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Skinner, Dennis
Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)
Turner, Dennis
Vaz, Keith
Wall, Pat
Wareing, Robert N.
Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)
Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Tellers for the Ayes :
Mr. Frank Haynes, and
Mrs. Llin Golding.
NOES
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael
Amess, David
Amos, Alan
Arbuthnot, James
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Ashby, David
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Baldry, Tony
Batiste, Spencer
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Blackburn, Dr John G.
Boswell, Tim
Brazier, Julian
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Chris
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Carttiss, Michael
Chalker, Rt Hon Mrs Lynda
Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher
Colvin, Michael
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cran, James
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Curry, David
Dorrell, Stephen
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Dover, Den
Durant, Tony
Fallon, Michael
Favell, Tony
Fenner, Dame Peggy
Fishburn, John Dudley
Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Forth, Eric
Freeman, Roger
French, Douglas
Gale, Roger
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Gill, Christopher
Glyn, Dr Alan
Goodlad, Alastair
Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gow, Ian
Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Gregory, Conal
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Ground, Patrick
Hague, William
Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Hanley, Jeremy
Harris, David
Haselhurst, Alan
Hayhoe, Rt Hon Sir Barney
Hayward, Robert
Heddle, John
Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)
Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Hunter, Andrew
Irvine, Michael
Jack, Michael
Janman, Tim
Jessel, Toby
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Knapman, Roger
Lyell, Sir Nicholas
Mellor, David
Morris, M (N'hampton S)
Morrison, Sir Charles
Moss, Malcolm
Neubert, Michael
Norris, Steve
Onslow, Rt Hon Cranley
Oppenheim, Phillip
Paice, James
Patnick, Irvine
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Pawsey, James
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth
Porter, David (Waveney)
Riddick, Graham
Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)
Rowe, Andrew
Rumbold, Mrs Angela
Sackville, Hon Tom
Shaw, David (Dover)
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')
Shersby, Michael
Sims, Roger
Soames, Hon Nicholas
Speed, Keith
Speller, Tony
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)
Stern, Michael
Stevens, Lewis
Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)
Stradling Thomas, Sir John
Summerson, Hugo
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thornton, Malcolm
Thurnham, Peter
Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)
Tracey, Richard
Twinn, Dr Ian
Waddington, Rt Hon David
Walden, George
Waller, Gary
Ward, John
Warren, Kenneth
Watts, John
Wheeler, John
Widdecombe, Ann
Winterton, Mrs Ann
Winterton, Nicholas
Wood, Timothy
Yeo, Tim
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory
and
Mr. Greg Knight.
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