House of Commons Hansard Debates for 26 Oct 1989

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House of Commons

Thursday 26 October 1989

The House met at half-past Two o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

International Westminster Bank Bill-- (By Order)

Isle of Wight Bill-- (By Order)

St. George's Hill, Weybridge, Estate Bill--

(By Order)

Hythe Marina Village (Southampton)

Wavescreen Bill-- (By Order)

New Southgate Cemetery and Crematorium

Limited Bill-- (By Order)

Orders read for consideration of Lords amendments.

To be considered on Thursday 2 November.

City of London (Spitalfields Market) Bill-- (By Order) Order read for consideration of Lords amendments.

To be considered on Tuesday 31 October.

Associated British Ports (No. 2) Bill

(By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question--[23 May]-- That the Bill be now read the Third time. Debate to be resumed on Thursday 2 November.

British Railways (Penalty Fares) Bill-- [Lords] (By Order) Order for further consideration, as amended, read.

To be further considered on Thursday 2 November.

Buckinghamshire County Council Bill-- [Lords]

(By Order)

London Local Authorities Bill

[Lords]

(By Order)

London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill--

[Lords] (By Order)

British Railways Bill-- (By Order)

Bromley London Borough Council--

(Crystal Palace) Bill-- (By Order)

Birmingham City Council (No. 2) Bill-- (By Order)

Orders for consideration, as amended, read.

To be considered on Thursday 2 November.

City of London (Various Powers) Bill

(By Order) Order for consideration, as amended, read.

To be considered on Tuesday 31 October.

Vale of Glamorgan (Barry Harbour) Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill

[Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Thursday 2 November.

Medway Tunnel Bill

[Lords] (By Order)

Order for Second Reading read.

To be read a Second time on Tuesday 31 October.

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Associated British Ports (No. 2) Bill

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the Associated British Ports (No. 2) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;

That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and shall be ordered to be read the third time ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session.

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [Mr. Harold Walker.]

Hon. Members : Object.

To be considered on Wednesday 1 November at Seven o'clock.

Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill (Lords)

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill [Lords] shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office of their intention to suspend further proceedings not later than the day before the close of the present Session and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ; That if the Bill is brought from the Lords in the next Session, the Agents for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office a declaration signed by them, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill which was brought from the Lords in the present Session ;

That as soon as a certificate by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office, that such a declaration has been so deposited, has been laid upon the Table of the House, the Bill shall be deemed to have been read the first and shall be ordered to be read a second time ; That the Petitions against the Bill presented in the present Session which stand referred to the Committee on the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the Bill in the next Session ; That no Petitioners shall be heard before the Committee on the Bill, unless their Petition has been presented within the time limited within the present Session or deposited pursuant to paragraph (b) of Standing Order 126 relating to Private Business ;

That, in relation to the Bill, Standing Order 127 relating to Private Business shall have effect as if the words "under Standing Order 126 (Reference to committee of petitions against Bill)" were omitted ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [Mr. Harold Walker.]

Hon. Members : Object.

To be considered on Thursday 2 November.

Birmingham City Council (No. 2) Bill

Motion made,

That the Promoters of the Birmingham City Council (No. 2) Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later

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than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;

That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;

That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;

That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [Mr. Harold Walker.]

Hon. Members : Object.

To be considered on Thursday 2 November.

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Oral Answers to Questions

HOME DEPARTMENT

Policing (Leicestershire)

1. Mr. Janner : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will make a statement concerning current policing levels in Leicestershire.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peter Lloyd) : My right hon. Friend approved 27 extra police posts for Leicestershire constabulary this year, bringing to 54 the new posts approved under this Government. In addition, 130 police officers have been returned to operational duties as a result of civilianisation and other efficiency measures.

My right hon. Friend is able to approve a further 1,100 police posts covering provincial forces and the Metropolitan police for 1990-91. He will consider the Leicestershire police authority's application for a further 75 police posts in that year with advice from Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary along with applications received from other authorities. My right hon. Friend hopes to announce his decisions as soon as possible and before the end of the year.

Mr. Janner : I congratulate the Minister on his new appointment and I hope that he will start well by answering yes to my questions. Is he aware of the appallingly high level of crime in the city of Leicester, where violent crime has more than doubled since his party came to power? Is he aware that his predecessor saw fit to make no allocation whatever of additional police officers to Leicestershire in 1988, despite the chief constable's call for more, and last year granted only one third of those requested? Will the Minister now answer yes to my request for a firm assurance that he will listen properly to our chief constable and help us to keep crime off the streets by getting more police on them?

Mr. Lloyd : We always listen properly to Leicestershire's chief constable. I am sorry that the hon. and learned Gentleman, to whom I am grateful for his welcome, is so dismissive of the successes of the Leicestershire police. The crime rate in the county is well below the national average and the clear-up rate well above it. Last year total crime in the county fell, falling by 9.3 per cent. for sex offences and by 5.7 per cent. for burglaries. The force has an extra 130 officers because the chief constable also listened to the suggestions of the Home Office and found that he could replace 130 officers and free them to go back on the beat by recruiting civilian staff. The hon. and learned Gentleman is heavy on hyperbole but short on the salient facts.

Mr. Latham : I, too, warmly welcome my hon. Friend to his new position and wish him well in it. Is he aware that my rural constituents are pleased at the increasing emphasis being placed on rural policing by Chief Constable Hurst and Superintendent John Mousley who has just retired? That is a welcome development, but it will require still more resources. I hope that my hon. Friend will bear that in mind when he considers a new allocation of police.

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Mr. Lloyd : Of course my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will bear that in mind. He will also bear in mind that Leicestershire had additional police constables this year. He will listen carefully to my hon. Friend's suggestion that the county should have more next year.

Mr. Vaz : I join the demand by my two hon. Friends for additional police officers for the Leicestershire constabulary. The Minister should be aware that this week hon. Members representing Leicestershire constituencies received a report by the lesbian and gay organisations in Leicester showing that police officers were being regularly deployed inside public lavatories. Does the Minister agree that a better use of police officers in a constabulary that is under strength would be on the streets catching criminals rather than acting as agents provacateurs in public lavatories harassing people going about their lawful business?

Mr. Lloyd : I have not seen the report and I will not comment on it. Obviously, its content is a matter for the chief constable as an operational consideration and not for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary or for me.

Crime Prevention

2. Mr. Thurnham : To ask the Secretay of State for the Home Department what further crime prevention initiatives he intends to introduce.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. John Patten) : In addition to the 11 safer cities projects which are now operating, a further five are planned to start between now and March 1990. Four new projects will be announced in the following financial year. We also launched yesterday the next phase of our national crime prevention advertising campaign which will provide further advice for the public on how they can help to reduce crime. Much excellent work is also being done with all-party support by the organisation Crime Concern.

Mr. Thurnham : I welcome my hon. Friend's excellent new campaign announced yesterday on practical ways to crack crime. It is essential to reduce violent crime. In that context, perhaps he could say more about what he thinks individuals could do. Does he agree that neighbourhood watch schemes are an excellent example of what people can do to help the police?

Mr. Patten : I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. Much can be done to prevent crime. Many efforts have been concentrated thus far on the prevention of property-related crimes, domestic burglaries and related acts. We can helpfully use some of the techniques being developed in neighbourhood watch areas to try to begin to deal with the difficult task of preventing violent crime and sexual attacks on women.

Mr. Heffer : Would it not be best if the Government totally supported the police in having far more foot patrols in areas where there is a high level of crime? My mother-in-law, who is 84 years of age, recently had her home broken into. Luckily, she did not wake up ; we do not know what would have happened to the old lady if she had woken up when those people broke in. She is a supporter of crime watch in that area. Is it not time that the Government recognised that the real answer is far more foot patrols by police doing what they used to do in the old

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days and looking after our people? At present the Government engage in all sorts of propaganda but little real action.

Mr. Patten : The answer to the hon. Gentleman's question is that we have far more police. The hon. Gentleman is right when he says that we all want to see far more police on foot patrol. At the same time, modern policing with its speed of communications demands that there be people able to deploy others in the event of attacks on people or property. I was extremely sorry to hear of the unfortunate event affecting the hon. Gentleman's mother-in-law. On the next of my regular visits to Liverpool perhaps he will arrange for me to call on her to discuss these matters at first hand.

Dame Peggy Fenner : I was pleased to read in the press yesterday my hon. Friend's special night time guidance for women. He is clearly aware that women who walk out now do so in a climate of fear. In his new crime prevention activities, will he pay special attention to the special needs of women in this rather violent era?

Mr. Patten : I thank my hon. Friend for her welcome of our crime prevention publicity campaign. The giving of advice to women or men on how to conduct themselves is sensitive and I dare say that every bit of advice will not suit every person. However, it is critically important that every one of us does everything that he can to help to diminish the numbers of attacks on women and to promote women's safety.

Mr. Sheerman : Is the Minister aware that we shall not get safer cities and towns on the back of show business gimmicks and advertising campaigns? Will he look again at backing democratically elected local authorities such as Southwark, which initiated a new campaign yesterday, so that they can lead the way in a positive partnership between the local authority, police, private enterprise and the community? Will he stop starving local authorities and thus preventing them from doing that?

Mr. Patten : I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not confusing the giving of useful public information with glitzy advertising campaigns. We are trying to act with all-party support, and I was glad to see that spokespersons--one has to be even-handed when dealing with the Labour party --such as the hon. Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) welcomed yesterday's campaign without any reservation. It is important that we have an information campaign and not an advertising campaign.

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that at the same time we need to mobilise local authorities, which have an important role to play in crime prevention. That is why we have already consulted the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils in preparing a new crime prevention circular, which I hope will be widely welcomed. I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not think that crime prevention is a matter for party politics.

Criminal Justice Act 1988

3. Mr. French : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has any plans to review the workings of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.

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Mr. John Patten : Criminal justice legislation is kept under constant review. The 1988 Act was a wide-ranging and substantial measure. As yet, it is naturally too early to judge the Act's effectiveness overall.

Mr. French : In reviewing the Act, will my hon. Friend consider extending the arrangement whereby children under 14 years of age can give evidence by closed circuit television from outside the courtroom? That arrangement is available in the higher courts but not yet available in the magistrates courts.

Mr. Patten : We are keeping this under review, and my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will look at it when he considers further the report on this and related issues just received from his honour Judge Pigot, the Common Serjeant in the City of London.

Mr. Flynn : Does the Minister realise that, despite the effects of the 1988 Act, crimes of violence against the police in Gwent are still at a record level, and the Gwent police remain the most bruised and battered in Britain? What does he intend to do to increase the Gwent police force to the proper level that the chief constable demands? Will he have some talks with the magistrates to ensure that anybody convicted of crimes of violence against the police can look forward with certainty to a period behind bars?

Mr. Patten : I am happy to meet anyone from Gwent who wishes to come to see me to talk about these issues. There is an adequate range of penalties for those who attack police.

Mr. Favell : My hon. Friend will have heard of the tragic events in Stockport last Thursday, when a temporary member of the Stockport shooting centre tried to leave with a pistol. He shot dead another member and then shot dead someone nearby. [Interruption.] It is not funny.

Mr. Speaker : Order. We are making slow progress and this does not help.

Mr. Favell : I have no doubt that my hon. Friend will want to join me in expressing sympathy for the families of the two men who were shot dead, one of whom had acted extremely bravely. Will he consider ensuring that temporary members of shooting clubs are vetted by the police before they enter the premises to shoot? Secondly, will he ban the use of targets shaped like human beings, which I understand to be illegal in West Germany?

Mr. Patten : My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and I extend our deepest sympathies to the relatives of those who were killed. My right hon. Friend is looking closely at the serious issue of temporary membership of gun clubs. The International Shooting Union has, from 1 January this year, laid down standards for target shooting which involve circular black targets. These are the targets that should be used in gun clubs, rather than those purporting to represent human beings. I hope that we never see those again.

Mr. Hattersley : The Minister will know from the public reaction to the wrongful arrest and conviction of the men and women involved in the Woolwich and Guildford affair that there is a growing national demand for a change in the law to prevent suspicion being converted into conviction of men and women who make confessions which are not substantiated by any other sort of evidence. Can we be told

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whether the Government intend to give the House an opportunity to come to a judgment on this matter next year?

Mr. Patten : The right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the public inquiry which has been set up. As soon as that inquiry has reported and its contents have been made known to the House, the House will doubtless wish to express its views.

Mr. Jessel : As we now have nine months' experience of the abolition of peremptory jury challenges, can my hon. Friend say how it has worked out?

Mr. Patten : It seems to be working exceptionally well, like the rest of the Act from which it stems.

West Midlands Police (Investigation)

4. Dr. Reid : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will call for a report from the chief constable of the West Midlands as to on how many occasions since 1979 persons in the custody of the West Midlands police have confessed to crimes of which they were subsequently acquitted or on which charges were subsequently dropped.

6. Mr. Fisher : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he last met the chief constable of the West Midlands ; and what matters were discussed.

8. Mrs. Mahon : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if, in the light of the recent decision to disband the West Midlands serious crimes squad, he will review all convictions for serious crimes based wholly or mainly on confessions obtained from people in the custody of the West Midlands police.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Douglas Hurd) : The information requested about the number of confessions of people held in the custody of the West Midlands police since 1979 is not readily available. In 1988 alone, the West Midlands police prosecuted more than 32,000 people for criminal offences, most of whom would have spent some time in custody.

I last met the chief constable of the West Midlands on 5 September, when we discussed a number of policing matters.

The assistant chief constable of West Yorkshire, Mr. Donald Shaw, was appointed on 14 August to carry out an investigation into the work and practices of the West Midlands serious crime squad, under the supervision of the Police Complaints Authority. His inquiries will concentrate on the period since the beginning of 1986, when complaints about the squad started to emerge. As I said in answer to a question by the hon. Member for Sunderland, South (Mr. Mullin) when making my statement last Thursday at column 283, if anything arises from the investigation which causes doubt about the safety of any conviction I would have to consider whether intervention on my part would be justified.

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