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Column 103Twinn, Dr Ian
Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Waddington, Rt Hon David
Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Walters, Sir Dennis
Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Young, Sir George (Acton)
Younger, Rt Hon George
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Alistair Goodlad and
Mr. Tony Durant.
Question accordingly negatived.
Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Question on amendments, moved by a Member of the Government, of which notice had been given, to that part of the Bill to be concluded at Nine o'clock.
Amendments made : No. 9, in page 5, line 12, at end insert and requiring that in Wales any application form for membership of the scheme shall also be available in Welsh'.
No. 32, in page 5, line 15, after that', insert , except in an emergency,'.
No. 10, in page 5, line 35, leave out imposing charges specified in' and insert
for the imposition of charges under'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendments made : No. 11, in page 6, line 44, leave out from with' to end of line and insert
the date of the conviction.'.
No. 12, in page 6, line 47, leave out be withdrawn' and insert cease on the date of the conviction'.
No. 13, in page 7, line 9, after court', insert-- (i)'. No. 14, in page 7, line 10 at end insert--
(ii) shall explain to him in ordinary language the effect of the conviction on his membership of the national football membership scheme ; and'.
No. 15, in page 7, line 13, leave out give' and insert send'. No. 16, in page 7, line 18, leave out send' and insert give'. No. 17, in page 7, line 19 at end insert--
( ) Where, on an appeal against a person's conviction of the relevant offence or against a sentence of imprisonment imposed on him in dealing with him for the offence, his conviction is quashed or the sentence is reduced to one which is not a sentence of imprisonment taking immediate effect, the court which determines the appeal or, as the case may be, the court to which the case is remitted, shall cause notice of the quashing of the conviction or of the sentence imposed to be sent to the persons specified in subsection (7)(b)(i) and (ii) above and, where his conviction is quashed, the Authority shall re-admit him to membership of the scheme, but without prejudice to any proceedings under the scheme to exclude him from membership'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
No. 42, in page 21, line 23 at end insert--
( ) any offence under section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872 (persons found drunk in public places, etc.) of being found drunk in a highway or other public place committed while the accused was on a journey to or from a designated football match being an offence as respects which the court makes a declaration of relevance ; ( ) any offence under section 91(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 (disorderly behaviour while drunk in a public place) committed in a
Column 104highway or other public place while the accused was on a journey to or from a designated football match being an offence as respects which the court makes a declaration of relevance ;'.
No. 43, in page 21, line 33 at end insert--
( ) any offence under section 4 or 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (driving etc. when under the influence of drink or drugs or with an alcohol concentration above the prescribed limit) committed while the accused was on a journey to or from a designated football match being an offence as respects which the court makes a declaration of relevance,'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
No. 37, in page 7, line 43, at end insert--
(5) The expenses of the licensing authority shall be paid by the Secretary of State.'-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendments made : No. 44, in page 23, line 34, at end insert-- 19A. The terms and conditions of appointments under paragraphs 18 and 19 above shall require the approval of the Secretary of State and the consent of the Treasury.
19B. The licensing authority shall, as regards such of its inspectors, officers and employees as with the approval of the Secretary of State and the consent of the Treasury it may determine, pay to or in respect of them such pensions, allowances or gratuities (including pensions, allowances or gratuities by way of compensation for loss of employment), or provide and maintain for them such pension schemes (whether contributory or not), as may be so determined.
19C. If an inspector, officer or employee of the licensing authority--
(a) is a participant in any pension scheme applicable to that employment, and
(b) becomes a member of the licensing authority,
he may, if the Secretary of State with the consent of the Treasury so determines, be treated for the purposes of the pension scheme as if his service as a member of the licensing authority were service as an employee of the licensing authority, whether or not any benefits are to be payable to or in respect of him by virtue of paragraph 10 or 11 above.'.
No. 45, in page 23, line 34, at end insert--
Accounts and audit 19D. The licensing authority shall keep proper accounts and proper records in relation to the accounts, and shall prepare for each accounting year a statement of accounts in such form as the Secretary of State, with the approval of the Treasury, may direct.
19E. The accounts of the licensing authority shall be audited by auditors appointed for each accounting year by the Secretary of State.
19F. A person shall not be qualified for appointment for the purposes of paragraph 19E above unless he is--
(a) a member of a body of accountants established in the United Kingdom and recognised for the purposes of section 389(1)(a) of the Companies Act 1985 ; or
(b) a member of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy ;
but a firm may be appointed if each of its members is qualified to be so appointed.
19G. A copy of any accounts of the licensing authority which are audited under paragraph 19E above and of the report made on those accounts by the auditors shall be sent by the licensing authority to the Secretary of State as soon as reasonably practicable after it receives them ; and the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament a copy of any accounts or report received by him under this paragraph.
19H. The Comptroller and Auditor General may inspect any records relating to the accounts.
Column 10519I. In paragraphs 19D and 19E above, "accounting year" means the period beginning with the day when the licensing authority is established and ending with the following 31st March, or any later period of twelve months ending with the 31st March.'-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendment made : No. 33, in page 8, line 7, after prove', insert
either that the spectators were admitted in an emergency or'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendments made : No. 18, in page 8, line 22, at end insert-- (2A) The licensing authority shall not refuse to grant a licence without--
(a) notifying the applicant in writing of the proposed refusal and of the grounds for it ;
(b) giving him an opportunity to make representations about them within the period of twenty-eight days beginning with the service of the notice ; and
(c) taking any representations so made into account in making its decision.'.
No. 19, in page 8, line 31, at end insert--
(4A) A licence to admit spectators may also include conditions requiring specified descriptions of spectators to be refused admittance to the premises to watch designated football matches or specified descriptions of designated football matches or a particular such match.'.
No. 29, in page 8, line 31, at end insert--
(4B) Where a designation order includes the provision authorised by section 1(3)(b) above as respects the admission of spectators to any ground as authorised spectators, the licensing authority may, by notice in writing to the licence holder, direct that, for the purposes of any match or description of match specified in the direction, the licence shall be treated as including such specified terms and conditions as respects the admission of spectators as authorised spectators as the licensing authority considers appropriate ; and the licence shall have effect, for that purpose, subject to those terms and conditions.'.
No. 20, in page 8, line 46, after notice', insert in writing'. No. 21, in page 9, line 3, after holder', insert in writing'. No. 22, in page 9, line 8, leave out his' and insert the'. No. 34, in page 9, line 15, after that', insert
, except (in the case of the procedures) in an emergency,'. No. 38, in page 9, line 36, at end insert--
( ) The fees charged on the issue of licences--
(a) may be fixed so as to reimburse the licensing authority their expenses under this Part of this Act ; and
(b) shall be paid by the licensing authority to the Secretary of State.'.
No. 30, in page 9, line 41, after licence' insert
or in the case of subsection (4B) in the direction'.
No. 39, in page 9, leave out lines 44 to 46.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendments made : No. 23, in page 11, line 23, at end insert--
Column 106( ) Before exercising its power under subsection (2) above to require the inclusion of specified terms and conditions in any safety certificate, the licensing authority shall consult the local authority, the chief officer of police and either the fire authority (where the local authority is in Greater London or a metropolitan county) or the building authority (in any other case).
( ) As respects those terms and conditions, the local authority need not consult the chief officer of police, the fire authority or the building authority under section 3(3) or 4(8) of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 before issuing a safety certificate or about any proposal to amend or replace one.'
No. 41, in page 11, line 43, at end insert--
( ) Section 5(3) of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975 (appeals against terms and conditions of safety certificates) shall have effect with the insertion, after paragraph (ii), of the words "but not against the inclusion in a safety certificate of anything required to be included in it by the Football Licensing Authority under section 13(2) of the Football Spectators Act 1989".'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendment made : No. 35, in page 13, line 19, at end insert in ordinary language'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Amendment made : No. 40, in page 17, line 40, leave out , out of money provided by Parliament,'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
.--(1) Any expenses of the Secretary of State under this Act shall be paid out of money provided by Parliament.
(2) Any fees received by the Secretary of State under this Act shall be paid into the Consolidated Fund.'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.] Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Amendments made : No. 24, in line 3, after spectators ;', insert
to provide for the safety of spectators at such matches by means of such licences and the conferment of functions on the licensing authority in relation to safety certificates for grounds at which such matches are played ;'.
No. 36, in line 4, leave out by designated agencies'.-- [Mr. Moynihan.]
Order for Third Reading read.
As many hon. Members will know better than I, this Bill has been debated at length in their Lordships' House and in this House, totalling 100 hours for a Bill of fewer than 30 clauses and it must still return to their Lordships, for them to consider amendments made in this place. The Bill has received a thorough examination in both Houses. I have not been involved with it until now--I have come on to the pitch rather late in the game. I have a strong sense of personal deprivation at not having been involved in the
Column 107Bill's proceedings until now. I am told that I missed a particularly entertaining Committee stage, full of whippets and nostalgia. Although the debates have shown evidence of the strong feelings that the subject arouses, they have been conducted in a courteous and often good-humoured way, and I wish to thank the hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) for that. As the House will recognise, debates with them are often vigorous but seldom, if ever, bitter.
It is a sad fact that hooliganism has been an ugly scar on the face of football for several years. The measures taken by the Government, the police and the football authorities have reduced the number of very serious incidents over the past year or two, but the effect has been to contain the problem rather than to eradicate it. The price of containment has been the rigid segregation of supporters of rival teams and a massive police presence at and around football grounds every weekend of the season.
In the face of the continuing problem of football hooliganism in this country and when the England team travels abroad, the Government decided to introduce this Bill, and I regret that there have been repeated reminders of the continuing menace of violence at football matches during its passage. The Hillsborough disaster, of course, was not attributable to hooliganism, and we paused in proceedings on the Bill for a two-month interval following that tragedy. Unfortunately, however, the hooligans were unable to pause even for two months before resuming their activities. Less than a month after Hillsborough, on the last full Saturday league programme of the season--13 May--a series of violent incidents occurred inside football grounds and among travelling supporters throughout the country, and 300 people were arrested that weekend.
The opening months of this season have seen yet more incidents in, among other places, Stockholm on 6 September, in Manchester and other cities on 23 September, and in Blackpool on 30 September. I attended a game at Tottenham on that date.
The trouble at the Sweden v. England game in Stockholm, despite the efforts of the Football Association to deter the so-called England supporters from travelling, demonstrated the importance of part II of the Bill. The Manchester City v. Manchester United game showed how close violence can be to the surface of matches in this country if the strict segregation of rival spectators slips. The problems will be solved only if there is a fundamental change in the atmosphere among football crowds. We believe that the national membership scheme can bring about that change.
Mr. Orme : With regard to the England v. Sweden game, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the problem will not be resolved unless the hooligans are charged in the country where they have committed the offence? The Bill will not affect them if they are simply put on a train and sent home. What does the Secretary of State think about that?
Mr. Patten : I very much sympathise with the right hon. Gentleman's point. We made that clear at the time to the Swedish authorities and we must work through the Council of Europe and in other ways to ensure that if hooligans are responsible for violence they are taken to
Column 108court and dealt with appropriately. It is extremely important that all countries where football is played and which love football should take tough action against hooligans wherever they come from. With regard to the particular events in Stockholm, hon. Members on both sides of the House were very much in agreement about ways in which we could deal with the people who bring not only the game of football in this country but England itself into such bad repute around Europe and beyond.
Mr. John Greenway : There is common agreement on both sides of the argument about this Bill that we must tackle the problem of football hooliganism abroad. What plans does my right hon. Friend have to discuss with other member states, whose international football clubs could be taking part in the World Cup in Italy next year, to ensure that any fans who besmirch the name of this country by behaving violently abroad will be prosecuted in Italy and not let free as happened in Stockholm? That is no help in the fight to defeat football hooliganism.
Mr. Patten : I know how much my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) knows about the issue and how concerned he is that we should find appropriate answers and solutions. I assure him that we are already discussing with the Italian authorities how best to cope with any hooliganism which might occur during the World Cup. My hon. Friend is entirely right to say that those discussions should be carried forward as soon and as vigorously as possible. As I said earlier, we must discuss these issues not only with the Italian authorities, with next year's World Cup in mind, but more broadly with the Council of Europe as well as through Interior Ministers of the European Community.
I shall deal with one recent statement before moving on to the precise terms of the Bill. I totally repudiate the allegation 10 days ago by the chairman of Crystal Palace football club that the Government need more hooligan problems in the next few weeks to help the Bill through Parliament. He also made the extraordinary request to supporters of his club to be on their best behaviour for the next few weeks so as to impede the passage of the Bill. The implication seems to be that once those few weeks are up the fighting can start. My information is that Crystal Palace supporters do not have a bad reputation, in which case they deserve considerably better of their chairman.
I have referred to the pause in proceedings on the Bill as a result of the Hillsborough disaster, but the continuing violence has demonstrated a continuing need for its provisions. The Bill has, however, been amended in a number of important ways following the Hillsborough disaster and will, I hope, become law very shortly--before we have seen the final report of Lord Justice Taylor's inquiry into the needs of crowd control and safety at sports events. Parliament will, however, have two opportunities to debate the scheme following receipt of the final report--first, before the Football Membership Authority is appointed and, secondly, when the scheme has been submitted and approved by me. We have provided also for the Football Licensing Authority to have powers in respect of safety at football grounds if Parliament should so decide in the light of Lord Justice Taylor's final report.
This is a relatively short Bill, but it contains a number of major elements. First, there is the national membership scheme, to which almost all those attending designated matches in future will have to belong. Secondly, there is