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House of Commons
Monday 6 November 1989
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
South Yorkshire Light Rail Transit Bill
[Lords]
United Medical and Dental Schools Bill
[Lords] Orders for consideration read.
To be considered on Thursday 9 November at Seven o'clock.
City of London (Various Powers) Bill
(By Order) Order for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Monday 13 November.
Medway Tunnel Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Monday 13 November.
British Film Institute Southbank Bill
Motion made,
That the Promoters of the British Film Institute Southbank Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;
That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session the Bill shall be presented to the House ;
That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;
That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and, having been amended by the Committee in the present Session, shall be ordered to lie upon the Table ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
To be considered on Thursday 9 November at Seven o'clock.
Redbridge London Borough Council Bill
Motion made,
That the Promoters of the Redbridge London Borough Council Bill shall have leave to suspend proceedings thereon in order to proceed with the Bill, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament, provided that the Agents for the Bill give notice to the Clerks in the Private Bill Office not later
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than the day before the close of the present Session of their intention to suspend further proceedings and that all Fees due on the Bill up to that date be paid ;That on the fifth day on which the House sits in the next Session shall be presented to the House ;
That there shall be deposited with the Bill a declaration signed by the Agents for the Bill, stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of its proceedings in this House in the present Session ;
That the Bill shall be laid upon the Table of the House by one of the Clerks in the Private Bill Office on the next meeting of the House after the day on which the Bill has been presented and, when so laid, shall be read the first and second time (and shall be recorded in the Journal of this House as having been so read) and, having been amended by the Committee in the present Session, shall be ordered to lie upon the Table ;
That no further Fees shall be charged in respect of any proceedings on the Bill in respect of which Fees have already been incurred during the present Session ;
That these Orders be Standing Orders of the House.-- [The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
To be considered on Thursday 9 November at Seven o'clock.
Oral Answers to Questions
WALES
Industrial Development
1. Mr. Wigley : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what financial resources are available to the Welsh Development Agency during the current financial year for the purposes of industrial development ; and what plans he has to increase this sum for the next financial year.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Walker) : The Welsh Development Agency has a total budget for 1989-90 of £130 million which will be deployed in promoting economic development in Wales. This represents an increase of over 50 per cent. on the budget for 1987-88. The agency's spending plans for 1990-91 will be announced following the Chancellor's Autumn Statement.
Mr. Wigley : Is the Secretary of State aware that the WDA in Gwynedd has not been able to go ahead with some scheduled industrial site projects because of a lack of finance? At a meeting with me, the WDA attributed this to the effect of projects such as those involving Bosch and Toyota--welcome though they are in themselves--on the overall budget. Budgets for areas such as Gwynedd are sucked in to meet those requirements. Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the WDA has asked that additional resources be made available? Can he confirm that major additional resources will be made available to meet the needs of major projects? Will he ensure that the resources from capital sales are available to the WDA for such projects and that it can roll its budget over from one year to the next?
Mr. Walker : I am pleased to say that, partly because of sales and partly because of extra Government funds, there has been a substantial increase in the budget of 50 per cent. In Gwynedd, 23,000 sq ft of WDA floor space is vacant. The WDA plans to start work on an additional 50,000 sq
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ft of factory and workshop floor space in the current financial year. On average, one factory a month has been built in the past 10 years. Much has been done, but I recognise that there is much more to be done.Mr. Raffan : Does my right hon. Friend agree that now that substantial private sector investment is creating business parks and providing factory space in south-east Clwyd--in Wrexham Maelor and in Alyn and Deeside--the WDA should concentrate its resources on factory development in north-east Clwyd, coastal Clwyd and Gwynedd, so that we can achieve a more balanced provision of WDA factory space in north Wales?
Mr. Walker : It is important that the WDA concentrates its substantially increased facilities and money in those areas where job creation has the highest priority.
Mr. Barry Jones : The WDA plays an important role abroad. In the interests of Welsh business, can the Secretary of State tell the House when he thinks that Britain should join the exchange rate mechanism of the European monetary system? Is he hiding behind the Prime Minister's skirts, or is he shoulder to shoulder with the Leader of the House, the former Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Walker : I consider that careful judgment needs to be given to the exact timing.
Hospital Waiting Lists
2. Mrs. Clwyd : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will list the current in-patient and out-patient hospital waiting lists in each of the Welsh area health authorites, by specialty.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ian Grist) : As the answer contains numerous figures I will with permission, Mr. Speaker, circulate the information in the Official Report.
Mrs. Clwyd : Is it not true that while the figures for mid-Glamorgan show a slight improvement, within those figures there is another tale, especially in the Cynon-Merthyr area? Is it not a fact that, over the past five years, the number of in-patients and out-patients waiting for hospital treatment has remained more or less the same? Is that the best that the Minister can do?
Mr. Grist : First, may I congratulate the hon. Lady on her electoral success and take leave to evince that I do not think that she will ever hide behind her convictions.
I think that the hon. Lady would like to join me in congratulating her health authority on the 30 per cent. reduction between March 1987 and March 1989 in the number of in-patients waiting more than one year for treatment.
Sir Anthony Meyer : Can my hon. Friend say anything about the proposed treatment centres intended to shorten waiting lists for certain forms of treatment?
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Mr. Grist : Yes. My hon. Friend knows that Ysbyty Gwynedd will have one of the treatment centres. We debated them fully in the Welsh Grand Committee last week. The centres will speed up operations for people on waiting lists. Although I do not wish to overemphasise waiting lists, the centres will make a major contribution to shortening the waiting lists which we all deplore.
Mr. Livsey : Does the Minister agree that Powys health authority should be congratulated on its attempts to reduce waiting lists by means of its health education programme aimed at eliminating hydatid disease? Does he further agree that such a programme would be more effective if the Welsh Office fully funded a dog-worming scheme, as has been done in New Zealand where the disease has been practically eliminated? Was it not self-evident on Saturday, from the way in which the New Zealand team performed, that that had been effective?
Mr. Grist : I did not know that it was a case of a need for worming. The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. He will be aware that the Welsh Office funded a worming programme which has now been handed over successfully to the Powys health authority, which has welcomed the programme.
Mr. Michael : Will the Minister confirm that he has not given us three treatment centres to tackle waiting lists, but merely an extension of the time of three consultants and support staff? That hardly amounts to three centres. Will he further confirm that all health authorities in Wales are having to make cuts and savings in the middle of the current financial year because of the Government's economic failure? What does he intend to do about that? Will he make available a special allocation of funds to tackle the £130 million repairs backlog in Welsh hospitals? Will he now address the problem of waiting lists in Wales, which he has so far failed to tackle?
Mr. Grist : I can confirm that authorities are expected to raise 1.3 per cent. of their funding through cost improvements and income-generation schemes, as they have successfully done in the past. We anticipate that on top of the 7.3 per cent. increase in funding, that will be sufficient to meet their immediate requirements. On all the other matters that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, such as upkeep and the £130 million backlog, he might like to take into account that when his party was in office, health authorities did not even know the capital value of their stocks because they did not bother to record them. Of the enormous value of hospital stocks in Wales, £130 million is a small proportion. Every hon. Member knows of old hospitals in his constituency that are due to be changed, modernised or closed and replaced with new facilities. That is included in those figures.
Following is the information :
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31 March 1989 |Out-Patients Waiting List
Specialty |Pembrokeshire |Clwyd |East Dyfed |Gwent |Gwynedd |Mid Glamorgan |Powys |South Glamorgan |West Glamorgan |Wales
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Medicine |180 |510 |357 |674 |523 |908 |9 |792 |328 |4,281
Paediatrics |39 |144 |85 |121 |62 |205 |27 |448 |103 |1,234
Chest Disease |14 |14 |68 |15 |78 |94 |17 |300
Dermatology |465 |760 |724 |2,304 |226 |3,174 |41 |2,354 |2,016 |12,064
Neurology |114 |176 |16 |33 |23 |9 |634 |705 |1,710
Cardiology |1 |462 |463
Phys Med/Rehab
STD
Rheumatology |94 |72 |436 |923 |8 |435 |455 |2,423
Geriatrics |2 |30 |14 |24 |32 |50 |152
Younger
Disabled
General Surgery |409 |1,301 |849 |1,646 |785 |1,612 |97 |2,847 |1,568 |11,114
ENT |920 |1,376 |1,300 |1,572 |834 |2,641 |261 |2,648 |2,363 |13,915
Trau and Orth |757 |1,182 |839 |2,721 |708 |3,219 |275 |3,111 |3,169 |15,981
Ophthalmology |84 |1,043 |360 |864 |1,302 |1,787 |186 |1,523 |1,377 |8,526
Radiotherapy |16 |26 |15 |57
Urology |490 |128 |170 |633 |1,524 |2,945
Plastic Surgery |206 |39 |208 |26 |26 |169 |674
Thoracic Surgery |2 |2
Dental Surgery |32 |517 |109 |902 |224 |204 |37 |304 |519 |2,848
Orthodontics |20 |230 |260 |330 |86 |87 |92 |1,352 |321 |2,778
Neurosurgery |5 |7 |82 |26 |120
Gynaecology |196 |826 |605 |1,307 |424 |1,614 |28 |1,233 |1,152 |7,385
Psych Children |47 |46 |34 |127
Mental H'Cap
Mental Illness |67 |62 |259 |33 |454 |3 |210 |85 |1,173
Adol Psych Units
GP Medical
GP Dental
Others:-
Pain Relief |50 |6 |6 |13 |75
Colposcopy |17 |17
Obstetrics |171 |32 |59 |262
Haematology |5 |8 |14 |8 |35
Sex. Dysfunction |6 |6
Cardiac Surgery |56 |56
Psycho Geriatric |22 |22
|--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |--- |---
Total |3,135 |9,200 |5,890 |13,616 |5,360 |17,223 |1,073 |19,294 |15,954 |90,745
31 March 1989 |In-Patients Waiting List
Specialty |Pembrokeshire |Clwyd |East Dyfed |Gwent |Gwynedd |Mid Glamorgan |Powys |South Glamorgan |West Glamorgan |Wales
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Medicine |5 |39 |2 |46
Paediatrics |135 |135
Chest Disease
Dermatology |9 |5 |14
Neurology |63 |18 |81
Cardiology |110 |110
Physical Medical
Rehabilitation |151 |151
STD
Rheumatology |28 |10 |2 |60 |100
Geriatrics |1 |12 |4 |17
Younger
Disabled
General Surgery |1,457 |1,118 |940 |1,762 |843 |1,742 |1,299 |1,264 |10,425
ENT |1,215 |479 |914 |735 |2,124 |737 |1,057 |7,261
Trauma and
Orthopaedic |800 |904 |436 |2,043 |119 |1,132 |1,801 |1,079 |8,314
Ophthalmology |356 |674 |868 |611 |397 |633 |964 |4,503
Radiotherapy |54 |16 |70
Urology |568 |651 |66 |822 |81 |2,188
Plastic Surgery |2,049 |2,049
Thoracic Surgery
Dental Surgery |267 |266 |354 |140 |255 |418 |1,700
Orthodontics
Neurosurgery |54 |79 |133
Gynaecology |232 |706 |229 |938 |272 |862 |470 |706 |4,415
Psych Children
Mental Handicap
Mental Illness |6 |6 |12
Adolescent Psych
Units
GP Medical |113 |113
GP Dental |8 |8
Others
Pain Relief
Colposcopy
Obstetrics
Haematology
Sexual
Dysfunction
Cardiac Surgery |119 |119
Psycho Geriatric
|-- |-- |-- |-- |-- |-- |-- |-- |-- |--
Total |2,489 |5,139 |2,776 |9,531 |2,934 |6,630 |117 |6,598 |5,750 |41,964
Eye Tests
3. Mr. Coleman : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has made a review of the numbers of people in Wales undergoing eye tests since the change in the regulations ; and what the corresponding number was for the appropriate period prior to the change.
Mr. Grist : Most of the sight tests undertaken since 1 April 1989 have been private transactions and statistical information is not available centrally. The number of National Health Service sight tests from April to September 1988 for which payment was made to opticians was 329,925. It is considered too early to review the effect of the change in regulations, but the Government intend to commission a survey later this year on the volume of sight tests.
Mr. Coleman : Under the new lights here in the Chamber, can I not see a blush of shame on the Minister's face? Is he aware that ophthalmologists acting as consultants to opticians are worried that, as a result of the abolition of free eye tests, they are now unable properly to monitor people whom they suspect to be liable to suffer from glaucoma, even though the disease does not exist at present in the family? Will he impress upon his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Health the need to take note of the matter and to restore free eye testing to ensure good eye health for everyone?
Mr. Grist : The hon. Gentleman and others describe the average charge of around £10 as rather too much of a deterrent to the ordinary person. It is worth remembering that about 20 million people are eligible for free sight tests, including, as the hon. Gentleman must know from the way in which he put the question, all those who are closely related to people who suffer from glaucoma disease.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : Is my hon. Friend aware that some opticians are offering free sight tests? Does he agree that this is a matter best left to opticians as part of a comprehensive service? Does he further agree that as a result of the Government's changes, opticians are now offering a far better range of glasses and contact lenses at a far lower real cost?
Mr. Grist : That is absolutely true and bears out the rules of competition in the market place. As I said in my original answer, we are monitoring what is happening and we shall want to see what occurs. We have no desire, of course, to damage anybody's eyesight.
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Mr. John P. Smith : On the important issue of eye tests, the Minister and other hon. Members would be forgiven for thinking that I am holding a jar of marmalade. In fact, it is drinking water drawn off by a constituent of mine in the community of Craig Penllyne. Does the Minister wish to comment on that?
Mr. Speaker : Order. Does this have anything to do with eye tests?
Rail Electrification
4. Dr. Marek : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any discussions with British Rail regarding electrification of the Crewe to Holyhead line or the Western main line from Paddington to Swansea.
The Minister of State, Welsh Office (Mr. Wyn Roberts) : My right hon. Friend discussed electrification when he met the chairman of British Rail on 12 December 1988.
Dr. Marek : I have been told that the Welsh Office favours electrification of the line from Paddington to south Wales, as opposed to electrification of the line from Crewe to Holyhead. If that is not the case, I should welcome the Minister's assurance to that effect and I should like him to say unequivocally that he will press British Rail--if in its wisdom it wishes to do it--for electrification of either line. One should not precede the other, for both are important to the industrial development of the Principality.
Mr. Roberts : I can give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. There is no justification for saying that the Welsh Office has pressed the case for one line as opposed to the other. I must warn the hon. Gentleman that the case for electrification is weak on both economic and financial grounds for both lines. There is a tendency to regard electrification as magical. We are really interested in improved journey times and I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that British Rail is considering improving the north Wales line so that the maximum speed could be 90 mph rather than 70 mph, as at present.
Mr. Sayeed : On the journey between Paddington and Swansea, the train passes through a number of English and Welsh constituencies. As my hon. Friend will know, the average size of an English constituency is 69,533 electors, whereas a Welsh constituency has an average of 57,753 electors. Will my hon. Friend tell us why a Welsh vote is worth 20 per cent. more than an English vote?
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Mr. Roberts : I suppose that the simple answer is that we are. My hon. Friend will be aware of the different sizes of constituencies in England, Scotland and Wales, and of the three, Scotland is the most favoured.
Mr. Geraint Howells : Is the Minister aware that there are two important lines going through mid-Wales, one from Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth and one from Shrewsbury through Llandrindod Wells to Swansea. Will the Minister have a word with the chairman of British Rail and try to persuade him to spend more money on those important routes?
Mr. Roberts : The hon. Gentleman will concede that there have been considerable improvements to rail services in different parts of Wales, including mid-Wales. There is an improved frequency of services in north Wales, as a result of the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. There are extra trains and coaches on the south Wales line and improvements in mid-Wales as well.
Welsh Counties Committee
5. Mr. Morgan : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the Welsh Counties Committee ; and what matters were discussed.
7. Mr. Murphy : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the representatives of district councils in Wales ; and what matters were discussed.
Mr. Peter Walker : I met representatives of the Welsh Counties Committee and the Council of Welsh Districts at a meeting of the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance on 2 November to discuss local government finance matters.
Mr. Morgan : Perhaps one of the burning topics that will be put before the Secretary of State when he next meets the Welsh Counties Committee will be the appalling bungle that the Welsh Office has made during the past 12 months. It has prevented Welsh counties, including South and West Glamorgan and Clwyd, from submitting to the European Commission applications for grants from the regional development fund to help with infrastructure schemes. Now that the counties are in a position to submit schemes for consideration, the EEC has changed the rules, and large infrastructure projects are no longer available. I should like to hear from the Secretary of State what his own estimate is, but it looks to me as though his Department and his bungling have cost the British taxpayer more than £66 million. Can he comment on that?
Mr. Walker : Yes, I can comment on it. The hon. Gentleman's assertions are mythical and unfounded, and the Welsh counties local authorities have expressed considerable gratitude for all the help that the Welsh Office has given them.
Mr. Murphy : Did not Welsh council leaders tell the Secretary of State at the meeting last Thursday that his figure of £175 for the Welsh poll tax is a massive underestimate? Will he admit that the implementation of the poll tax in Wales is now a shambles, and that councils face even higher administrative and running costs as a direct result of his Government's policy? Does not all this
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anyway smack of back-pedalling and panic because there is not one friend of the poll tax in the Principality of Wales?Mr. Walker : I am only sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not present at the meeting, which was cordial and constructive. There were no complaints along the lines that he describes, and I suggest that he consults local authorities more fully to find out what is really going on.
Mr. Gwilym Jones : Did my right hon. Friend discuss the fear of many in Wales that some local councils are using the inevitable confusion arising from the change in revenue raising next April and the fact that many of them do not have to face elections to raise the community charge far higher than is necessary? That will be a decision of the Welsh local councils. What steps does my right hon. Friend propose to take to protect the people of Wales from such councils?
Mr. Walker : I hope that such actions will not be taken. The background is that Welsh authorities in the main have acted responsibly and that is one reason why we have succeeded in negotiating a community charge in Wales of about £100 less than that in England or Scotland.
Mr. Flynn : Did the counties committee raise with the Secretary of State the disparity in spending in Scotland and Wales--especially spending on the Health Service? Is he aware that two parliamentary answers today show that the average spending on the Health Service per head of the population is £504 in Scotland, whereas the average in Wales is a mere £445. Why is that?
Mr. Walker : As the hon. Gentleman tabled the questions himself, he will know that exactly the same differential existed in 1978 and 1979.
Mr. Barry Jones : On a matter as important as poll tax transitional relief and revenue support grant in Wales, why has the right hon. Gentleman decided not to make an oral statement? We note that the Secretary of State for the Environment proposes to make such a statement and to submit to oral questioning. Do you note, Mr. Speaker, that on the Order Paper for written answer today are questions tabled by the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) relating to the poll tax and revenue support grants? Why is the Secretary of State running away from the House? Why has he decided not to make a statement and answer questions? Why has he elected to behave in so slippery a style? He knows that Wales hates the poll tax and that Welsh local authorities are starved of cash. Why is there no statement to the House?
Mr. Walker : I assure the hon. Gentleman that I intend to make an oral statement as usual--certainly way before Christmas--when I shall give full details of my proposals for local government finance. Following my constructive meeting with local authorities the local authority associations shared my view that it would not be helpful at this stage to publish examples illustrating the likely effects of my proposals on individual authorities. As Wales has done far better in terms of the poll tax than the rest of the United Kingdom, I shall rejoice in making that statement.
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M4
6. Mr. Gareth Wardell : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales if he will invite tenders in 1990 to enable the sections on the M4 between Lon -las and Baglan to be completed by the end of 1992.
Mr. Wyn Roberts : Tenders have been invited for the Earlswood Lon- las scheme with a view to letting the contract before the end of this financial year. Work on the two remaining schemes is planned to start early in the period April 1991 to March 1994 as shown in "Roads in Wales 1989". These schemes will take two and a half and three years respectively and will be completed simultaneously.
Mr. Wardell : The Minister has given a totally unacceptable time scale in his reply involving a three-year span and he is not willing to give a precise date when those two sections will begin. Does the Minister accept that the people of Wales must be deeply embarrassed after 10 years of Conservative Government because the M4 in Wales remains incomplete and that is a major obstacle to the creation of new jobs west of that particular bottleneck which is driving inward investment away from an area which desperately needs it?
Mr. Roberts : The hon. Gentleman cannot have heard my reply. I said that the two remaining schemes were planned to start early in the period April 1991 to March 1994. We are well aware of the problems with congestion on the M4 and A48 and that is why we are currently undertaking a scheme of road widening and traffic signalling at Baglan roundabout which will be completed early in the new year. We have further schemes to alleviate congestion for Briton Ferry and the Earlswood roundabouts. Those schemes will give us time to complete this very large project which will cost £116 million at November 1988 prices.
Mid-Glamorgan Health Authority
8. Dr. Kim Howells : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of Mid-Glamorgan health authority ; and what matters were discussed.
Mr. Grist : The Secretary of State and I met the chairman of Mid- Glamorgan health authority, together with other Welsh health authority chairmen, on 30 November 1988. We discussed a number of issues, including the NHS review and resource allocations for 1989-90.
Dr. Howells : Given the high rates of morbidity and illness in the Mid-Glamorgan health authority area and the dilapidated state of key sections of its most important hospital--East Glamorgan general hospital-- does the Minister have any plans to speed up the replacement of that hospital? Given that until now it has been common currency that the site for the replacement hospital will be Ynys Plwm to the north of Talbot Green, will he explain the curious anomaly whereby information has been made public recently stating that the Minister wants that site to be available for industrial and commercial expansion?
Mr. Grist : I can assure the hon. Gentleman that although a number of planning approval and funding issues remain to be resolved, it is understood that Mid-Glamorgan health authority continues to focus its
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efforts on securing land at Ynys Plwm. That remains the position as of today. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we deferred consideration of the health authority's proposals pending the authority's financial and timing proposals. That remains the present position.Mr. Ron Davies : May I draw the Minister's attention to the situation in Rhymney valley and will he raise that issue with the chairman of the health authority the next time he meets him? Waiting lists in Rhymney valley are increasing almost monthly and the quality of the service is deteriorating, but there are no plans to make adequate provision in Rhymney valley and the neighbouring Islwyn valley because of administrative arrangements and disagreements between Mid-Glamorgan health authority and Gwent area health authority. Does the Minister accept that about 150,000 people do not have a district general hospital? Instead of cutting the service and undermining the morale of staff in the National Health Service, should not the Minister be persuading those two area health authorities to get together and co-operate? If he provides the funds, we can have our new district general hospital.
Mr. Grist : I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's local point on this contentious issue which has been running for a great many years now. However, it is ludicrous for the hon. Gentleman to talk about cuts when expenditure on the Health Service in Wales has risen from £488 million to £1,600 million. I assure him that our proposals under the NHS review should assist his constituents to have operations and treatment in neighbouring hospitals more easily and flexibly than hitherto.
Mr. Rowlands : Did the Minister's discussions relate to the problems faced by elderly people in Merthyr, for example, who are awaiting hip operations--people who do not have a lot of time to wait? Was he able to discuss how many such operations were to be conducted at the treatment centre at Rhydlafar, and how many people who are presently on the Prince Charles hospital waiting list will go for that treatment? Above all, why can we not have the facility at the hospital in the community in which those people are living?
Mr. Grist : The hon. Gentleman has put his finger on the very point that I was making to his hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. Davies) about our Health Service review. His health authority had various visiting consultants to the Prince Charles hospital, illustrating that the facilities there could be used at a far higher intensity. That is precisely what would be available under our proposals.
British Rail
9. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones : To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the chairman of British Rail ; and what matters were discussed.
Mr. Peter Walker : I last met the chairman of British Rail on 12 December 1988. The discussions covered a wide range of issues.
Mr. Jones : In view of the Minister of State's reply to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Dr. Marek), will the Secretary of State now give the House the whole picture and confirm that British Rail intends to cut expenditure and upgrading work on the section of line between
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Holyhead and Bangor? That information was provided by British Rail only recently. Does the Secretary of State agree that such cuts are utterly disgraceful, bearing in mind that British Rail is prepared to commit millions of pounds to the Channel tunnel project but is withdrawing investment from an important line connecting Ireland and Europe? Does he agree that that priority causes the people of Holyhead to wonder whether British Rail is committed to the future of that line? Will he make our views known to the chairman of British Rail when he next meets him?Mr. Walker : The hon. Gentleman must bear in mind that British Rail is spending a great deal of money on improving rolling stock and times in mid-Wales and north Wales. Total expenditure by British Rail in Wales is at a high level, some of which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, must be heavily subsidised, and correctly so. British Rail is doing a great deal of modernisation work, which I welcome.
Mr. Denzil Davies : Is the Secretary of State aware that there is a justified fear in south-west Wales that British Rail is not interested in anything west of Cardiff? In particular, there is concern that InterCity services will stop at Cardiff. There is concern also that no attempt is being made to provide a direct and speedy link from south-west Wales to the Channel tunnel. When the right hon. Gentleman next meets the chairman of British Rail, will he get an assurance that InterCity services will not end at Cardiff? Will the Welsh Office, British Rail and the county council try to plan a direct link from south-west Wales to the Channel tunnel?
Mr. Walker : Rail services to Swansea are exceedingly good by any standards. It is a great mistake for the right hon. Gentleman to imply that they have not been maintained to a high order. There are no plans to reduce that service. There are quite a few plans to improve British Rail's rolling stock and general service. On the Channel tunnel, there is a need for better terminal arrangements in south Wales and north Wales. Important as it is to get good use of the Channel tunnel, if it has maximum success it will carry only 15 per cent. of freight from this country to Europe. It is in Wales's interests to look at where the other 85 per cent. is going.
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