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city and that such a development, along with the creation of a huge shopping centre, was the only way for a capital city to develop. It was to the good fortune of us all that that scheme fell and the hook road was not built. Instead there emerged the sort of development for which we were arguing--the organic development of the city. It has since developed in the way that we hoped. Today, Cardiff city centre is one of the finest of any city. That has happened not as the result of any grandiose scheme but for the reverse reason--because we turned our backs on huge developments and went for the sensible, progressive, organic development of the city. There is a parallel between the change of attitude on that occasion and the consideration that we are giving to the barrage today. We rejected that grandiose scheme 20 years ago, and that led to the fine city centre that Cardiff now has. By saying no to the carry-over tonight, there will be a rethink of the whole issue, just as occurred 20 years ago. I hope that, following that rethink, there will emerge a consensus for the idea of a mini-barrage, which will overcome many of the objections that have been voiced on conservation grounds and which will not make the sort of demands on public expenditure that the barrage scheme would make.

It has been suggested that we should not make this an argument of valley versus the city of Cardiff. We do not want that to happen, but we are jealous of the relative proportions of public expenditure that is devoted to the city and to valley communities such as mine. The public expenditure consequences of the Bill and the large proportion of money that one suspects will come from Welsh Office funds make the Secretary of State's Valleys initiative look like an extremely meagre affair.

There are many reasons why the Bill should not be carried over, including the wider, broader national issues that have been mentioned. People who 10 years ago would have dismissed arguments about the needs of wading birds have now become aware of the enormous long-term significance of conservation--

9.59 pm

Mr. Michael rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The House divided : Ayes 192, Noes 58.

Division No. 407] [9.59 pm


Alexander, Richard

Alton, David

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

Ashby, David

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Bell, Stuart

Bermingham, Gerald

Bevan, David Gilroy

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Boswell, Tim

Boyes, Roland

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Budgen, Nicholas

Burns, Simon

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Carlisle, John, (Luton N)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Chapman, Sydney

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)

Coleman, Donald

Colvin, Michael

Conway, Derek

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Couchman, James

Cox, Tom

Crowther, Stan

Currie, Mrs Edwina

Curry, David

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Column 285

Day, Stephen

Dixon, Don

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Duffy, A. E. P.

Durant, Tony

Eadie, Alexander

Evans, David (Welwyn Hatf'd)

Evennett, David

Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fallon, Michael

Favell, Tony

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Flynn, Paul

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forman, Nigel

Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)

Forth, Eric

Foster, Derek

Franks, Cecil

Fraser, John

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Gale, Roger

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Alan

Grant, Sir Anthony (CambsSW)

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Sir Eldon (Bury St E')

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Grist, Ian

Ground, Patrick

Hague, William

Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)

Harris, David

Haynes, Frank

Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.

Home Robertson, John

Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd)

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Irvine, Michael

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Kilfedder, James

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Kirkhope, Timothy

Kirkwood, Archy

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knowles, Michael

Knox, David

Lang, Ian

Lawrence, Ivan

Lee, John (Pendle)

Lightbown, David

Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Lord, Michael

Lyell, Sir Nicholas

McFall, John

MacKay, Andrew (E Berkshire)

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

McNair-Wilson, Sir Michael

McWilliam, John

Mans, Keith

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Martin, David (Portsmouth S)

Mawhinney, Dr Brian

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Michael, Alun

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Mitchell, Sir David

Monro, Sir Hector

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Murphy, Paul

Neubert, Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Nicholson, Emma (Devon West)

Norris, Steve

Oppenheim, Phillip

Page, Richard

Paice, James

Parry, Robert

Patnick, Irvine

Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Raison, Rt Hon Timothy

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

Renton, Rt Hon Tim

Rhodes James, Robert

Rifkind, Rt Hon Malcolm

Roberts, Wyn (Conwy)

Robertson, George

Rost, Peter

Sackville, Hon Tom

Sayeed, Jonathan

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Shelton, Sir William

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Squire, Robin

Steel, Rt Hon David

Stern, Michael

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Stokes, Sir John

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Strang, Gavin

Summerson, Hugo

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Tebbit, Rt Hon Norman

Temple-Morris, Peter

Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

Thorne, Neil

Thurnham, Peter

Tredinnick, David

Trotter, Neville

Twinn, Dr Ian

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Walker, Rt Hon P. (W'cester)

Wallace, James

Waller, Gary

Wardell, Gareth (Gower)

Warren, Kenneth

Wheeler, John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wilkinson, John

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Winterton, Nicholas

Wood, Timothy

Woodcock, Dr. Mike

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Gwilym Jones and

Mrs. Llin Golding.


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