| Home Page |
Column 1137
House of Commons
Thursday 14 December 1989
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Associated British Ports
(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order for Third Reading read.
To be read the Third time on Wednesday 10 January at Seven o'clock.
Birmingham City Council
(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order for consideration, amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 11 January.
Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill
[Lords] (By Order) Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Tuesday 19 December at Seven o'clock.
Column 1138
MOTIONS FOR UNOPPOSED RETURNS
Mr. Speaker : I call the First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means to move the nine motions for unopposed returns.
Business of the House
Return ordered,
of--
(1) the total number of Questions to Ministers or other Members which stood on the Order Paper, distinguishing those set down for oral, written priority and written answer respectively, the number of days upon which replies to Questions for oral answers were given in the House ; and the total number of Questions for oral answer to which such answers were given in the House ;
(2) the total number of Notices of Motions given for an early day ;
(3) the number of Members ordered to withdraw from the House under Standing Order No. 42 (Disorderly conduct) showing separately the orders given in the House and those given in Committee ; and the Members suspended from the service of the House under Standing Order No. 43 (Order in debate) or otherwise, distinguishing whether the offence was committed in the House or in Committee, the period of such suspension, the number of occasions on which more than one Member was so suspended having jointly disregarded the authority of the Chair, and the number of occasions on which the attention of the House was called to the need for recourse to force to compel obedience to Mr. Speaker's direction ; and
(4) the number of public petitions presented to the House distinguishing separately those brought to the Table at the times specified by Standing Order No. 133 (No debate on presentation of petition).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Column 1139
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of motion,
Closure claimed, |in respect of |given to Motion |and,if a division
and by whom |or witheld by |Numbers for
|Amendment |by the Chair |and against
and
(c) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders distinguishing
where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under Standing
Order No. 81 (Allocation of time to Bills), showing in respect of each Bill--
(i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing
Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under Standing Order No. 103 (
Business sub-committees) agreed to by the Standing Committee, and the number of sittings
of the Standing Committee pursuant thereto; and
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and
any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in
committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the
House or in Committee.-{The First Deputy Chairman of WQays and Means.]
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of motion,
Closure claimed, |in respect of |given to Motion |and,if a division
and by whom |or witheld by |Numbers for
|Amendment |by the Chair |and against
and
(c) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders distinguishing
where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under Standing
Order No. 81 (Allocation of time to Bills), showing in respect of each Bill--
(i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing
Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under Standing Order No. 103 (
Business sub-committees) agreed to by the Standing Committee, and the number of sittings
of the Standing Committee pursuant thereto; and
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and
any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in
committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the
House or in Committee.-{The First Deputy Chairman of WQays and Means.]
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of motion,
Closure claimed, |in respect of |given to Motion |and,if a division
and by whom |or witheld by |Numbers for
|Amendment |by the Chair |and against
and
(c) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders distinguishing
where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under Standing
Order No. 81 (Allocation of time to Bills), showing in respect of each Bill--
(i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing
Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under Standing Order No. 103 (
Business sub-committees) agreed to by the Standing Committee, and the number of sittings
of the Standing Committee pursuant thereto; and
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and
any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in
committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the
House or in Committee.-{The First Deputy Chairman of WQays and Means.]
and
(2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:
1 |2 |3 |4
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date when |Whether claimed |Whether assent |Result of motion,
Closure claimed, |in respect of |given to Motion |and,if a division
and by whom |or witheld by |Numbers for
|Amendment |by the Chair |and against
and
(c) the number of Bills in respect of which allocation of time orders distinguishing
where appropriate orders supplementary to a previous order) were made under Standing
Order No. 81 (Allocation of time to Bills), showing in respect of each Bill--
(i) the number of sittings allotted to the consideration of the Bill in Standing
Committee by any report of a Business Sub-Committee under Standing Order No. 103 (
Business sub-committees) agreed to by the Standing Committee, and the number of sittings
of the Standing Committee pursuant thereto; and
(ii) the number of days or portions of days allotted by the allocation of time order and
any supplementary order to the consideration of the Bill at any stage in the House or in
committee, together with the number of days upon which proceedings were so taken in the
House or in Committee.-{The First Deputy Chairman of WQays and Means.]
Delegated Legislation
Return ordered,
of the number of Instruments considered in Session 1988-89 by the Joint Committee and the Select Committee on Statutory Instruments respectively pursuant to their orders of
Column 1140
reference, showing in each case the numbers of Instruments subject to the different forms of parliamentary procedure and of those within the Committees' orders of reference for which no parliamentary procedure is prescribed by statute ; setting out the grounds on which Instruments may be drawn to the special attention of the House under Standing Order No. 124 (Statutory Instruments (Joint Committee)) and specifying the number of Instruments so reported under each of these grounds ; and of the numbers of Instruments considered by a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c., and by the House respectively, in Session 1988-89, showing the number where the Question on the proceedings relating thereto was put forthwith under Standing Order No. 101(5).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Private Bills and Private Business
Return ordered,
Of the Number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into this House, and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1988-89, specifying also the dates of the House's consideration of the several stages of such Bills ; Of all Private Bills, Hybrid Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1988-89 were reported on by Committees on Opposed Bills or by Committees nominated by the House or partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee ; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee ; the number of days on which each Committee sat ; the number of days on which each selected Member served ; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been proved ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been not proved ; and in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1988-89 were referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on Unopposed Bills,together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee ; the number of days on which the Committee sat ; and the number of days on which each Member attended ;
Of the number of Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, distinguishing those proceeded with under section 7 and under section 9 respectively ; specifying, in the case of Bills proceeded with under section 9 against which petitions were deposited, whether a motion was made to refer the Bill to a joint committee, and if so whether such motion was agreed to, withdrawn, negatived or otherwise disposed of ; and stating for each joint committee to which a Bill was referred the names of the Members of this House nominated thereto, the first and last day of the committee's sitting, the number of days on which each joint committee sat for the consideration of the Bill referred to it, the number of days on which each Member of the committee served, and whether the committee reported that the Order ought or ought not to be confirmed ;
Of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, Bills for the confirmation of Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which were referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the committee ;
And of the membership, work costs and staff of the Court of Referees and the Standing Orders Committee.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Public Bills
Return ordered,
Of the number of Public Bills (other than Bills to confirm Provisional Orders and Bills to confirm Orders under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1986) distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1988- 89, showing : (1) the number which received the Royal Assent, and (2) the number which did not receive the Royal Assent, indicating those which were introduced into but not passed by this House, those passed by this Hose but not by the House of Lords, those passed by the House of Lords but not by this House, those passed by both Houses but Amendments
Column 1142
not agreed to ; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills were dropped, postponed or rejected in either House of Parliament, or the stages which such Bills had reached by the time of Prorogation.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]Sittings of the House
Return ordered,
of the days on which the House sat in Session 1988-89, stating for each day the day of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of the adjournment ; the total numbers of hours occupied in the sittings of the House ; and the average time ; showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after the time appointed for the interruption of business and specifying, for each principal type of business before the House, how much time was spent thereon, distinguishing from the total the time spent after the hour appointed for the interruption of business.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Special Procedure Orders
Return ordered,
of the number of Special Procedure Orders presented in Session 1988-89, the number withdrawn ; the number annulled ; the number against which Petitions or copies of Petitions were deposited ; the number of Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively considered by the Chairman ; the number of such petitions certified by the Chairman as proper to be received and the number certified by them as being Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively ; the number referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses ; the number reported with Amendments by a Joint Committee, and the number in relation to which a Joint Committee reported that the Order be not approved and be amended respectively ; and the number of Bills introduced for the confirmation of Special Procedure Orders.
Of Special Procedure Orders which, in Session 1988-89, were referred to a Joint Committee, together with the names of the commons Members who served on each Committee ; the number of days on which each committee sat ; and the number of days on which each such Member attended.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Standing Committees
Return ordered,
of (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the Standing Committees showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings to which he was summoned and at which he was present ; (2) the number of Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items referred to Standing Committees pursuant to Standing Order No. 102 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), or Standing Order No. 103 (Standing Committees on European Community Documents) considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of sittings of each Committee and the titles of all Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items as above considered by a Committee distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords, and showing in the case of each Bill, Estimate, Matter and other item, the particular Committee by which it was considered, the number of sittings at which it was considered (including, in the case of the Scottish Grand Committee, the number of Meetings held in Edinburgh, pursuant to a motion made under Standing Order No. 95(3) (Scottish Grand Committee)) and the number of Members present at each of those sittings ; and (3) of the membership, work costs and staff of the Chairmen's Panel.-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Select Committees
Return ordered,
of statistics relating to the membership, work costs and staff of Select Committees (other than the Standing Orders Committee).-- [The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]
Column 1143
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Intergovernmental Conference
1. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the recent meeting of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.
3. Mr. Corbett : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what issues were discussed at the last meeting of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference.
10. Mr. Hunter : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last held discussions with Ministers of the Government of the Republic of Ireland ; and what matters were discussed.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Brooke) : The joint statement issued following the last Intergovernmental Conference held on 30 November has been placed in the Library. Discussions included the political situation in Northern Ireland, security co-operation and economic co-operation.
Mr. Winnick : Has there been, or is there likely to be, any discussion at the conferences of the remarks made by the Secretary of State on 3 November? This is the first Northern Ireland Question Time since his controversial remarks on what might happen once terrorist violence comes to an end. We all deeply mourn the latest tragic murders of two soldiers. Does the Secretary of State agree that the setting up of the Anglo-Irish parliamentary body will be a step further towards closer co-operation and discussion between the Irish Republic and ourselves?
Mr. Brooke : In answer to the hon. Gentleman's first question, there was brief and informal discussion of that matter. On his second question, I believe that the parliamentary group could do nothing but good.
Mr. Corbett : Given that the Secretary of State has committed himself to more Ulster Defence Regiment patrols being accompanied by the Royal Ulster Constabulary, what steps has he taken to achieve that and how often has it happened?
Mr. Brooke : We have had a longstanding commitment to increasing RUC accompaniment of patrols, whether of the Regular Army or of the UDR. We have set up a working group, working inside the Northern Ireland Office and in collaboration with the security forces, and a similar working group at official level with the Irish, to discuss the modus operandi for adding to the accompaniment. It has been remarked that greater accompaniment has been seen.
Mr. Hunter : As one who is becoming increasingly disillusioned about the Anglo-Irish Agreement, may I seek reassurance, in the light of continuing opposition in Northern Ireland and no discernible decrease in terrorism, on what is being achieved? Are not the value, effectiveness and even morality of the agreement open to serious question?
Mr. Brooke : I can only speak with particular vividness of the working of the agreement and the conferences since I became Secretary of State. During that time, we have had
Column 1144
four meetings, three of which lasted a considerable time. They have provided a great opportunity for me and for my right hon. Friend the Minister of State to establish a good working relationship with our colleagues in the Government of the Republic on which we have been able to draw informally between the workings of the conference.Mr. Peter Robinson : Does the Secretary of State recognise that many people in Northern Ireland and outside believe that it would be appropriate to move towards an alternative to the Anglo-Irish Agreement? Has the Secretary of State a sense of justice and fair play such as to cause him to consider whether it would be wise to hold an event in which one participant, the Social Democratic and Labour party, would have a head start, while the other, the Unionists, could be locked in the pavilion? Will he cause such an event to be called so that negotiations can take place and attempt to ensure that all meet on a fair and equal basis, with the Anglo-Irish Agreement not being operated during that period?
Mr. Brooke : To use the hon. Gentleman's vivid metaphor, it goes without saying that it would be impossible to have a game or a match unless all sides were on the field. If all sides were on the field, talks would take place.
The Government have always said that they will operate the agreement sensitively in the interests of bringing about talks. The arrangements that we have reached with the Government of the Republic for meetings of the conference in the first half of 1990 will make it possible for there to be uneven intervals between the conferences.
Mr. Clifford Forsythe : During the conference, was there any discussion about the electricity interconnector, the improvement of roads in border areas or Northern Ireland's railway problems and the sabotaging of railway lines?
Mr. Brooke : I shall answer the hon. Gentleman in reverse order. On the most recent occasion, 30 November, we discussed co-operation in the context of the railway. We set an agenda for conversations at the conference during 1990, including cross-border co-operation, economic development and approaches to the Community. I do not think that we discussed the hon. Gentleman's first point on 30 November.
Mr. Gow : Will my right hon. Friend reaffirm that it is the Government's policy to maintain and strengthen the union between Great Britain and Northern Ireland? As it is the Government's policy that there should be no assembly in Scotland, on the ground that a Scottish assembly would injure the union, why does my right hon. Friend persist in advocating an assembly in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend asks a teasing and tempting question. He knows that it has been the Government's policy for a significant time to move towards the transfer of power to local politicians in Northern Ireland.
Mr. McGrady : Under the auspices of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, will the Secretary of State consider setting up a cross-border panel of economists to examine the implications of the Single European Act in 1992? Such a
Column 1145
panel could look into the problems of harmonisation of value added tax, fiscal rates and a common currency for the island of Ireland and report to him on possible ministerial action both north and south.Mr. Brooke : It has taken us a little time in the working of the conference to set in motion the conversations that we are currently having about the Community. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion would be somewhat more ambitious than what we have already secured, but it is always sensible to have objectives that go beyond the immediate business. We will have plenty of time in 1990, and I will certainly remember the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. I make no comment about the value of the hon. Gentleman's suggestions, but I will remember them as we move to the second half of 1990.
Mr. McNamara : First, may I congratulate the Secretary of State on, over the past two days, successfully uniting all Irish
parties--Catholic, Protestant and dissenter--to vote against the Government's policies? That is a significant act of unity on which the Government should be congratulated.
Secondly, as the Anglo-Irish Agreement is turning its attention from some important security matters, which were highlighted by the tragic event yesterday, to other more co-operative matters, would it not be in the interests of the people of Northern Ireland, the Republic and all parties concerned if the Government's position papers on the various economic and social matters were to be published by the respective Governments so that there could be an informed debate on those important issues throughout the island of Ireland?
Mr. Brooke : I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's mock congratulations, and I return the compliment. I heard that his party would go into the Lobby last night with the SDLP. The fact that 18 people from several political parties managed to assemble suggests that Labour Members were not present in force.
On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, we are making early progress on cross-border matters relating to the Community. It would be too early to take the step which the hon. Gentleman suggests, but I will bear it in mind.
John Francis Green
2. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will raise at the next meeting of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference the possibility of the publication by the Irish Government of the Garda report on its inquiry into the death of John Francis Green, referred to by the Minister of State for the Armed Forces at Official Report, column 817 on 29 November.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Cope) : No, Sir.
Mr. Dalyell : Is the Minister aware that it is over 20 years since I went to Harold Wilson and James Callaghan to ask them why they imagined that they would be more successful than Strafford or Cromwell, and to plead with them not to send Scottish and English troops into Ireland? The answer was that the troops would be out by Christmas--Christmas 1969. Given that the Army is there, would it not be much better to be absolutely frank and to tell all that is known of the truth of John Francis Green?
Column 1146
Mr. Cope : In answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I was not aware of the advice that he gave to the Prime Minister of the day 20 years ago, or of the Prime Minister's response.
In answer to the second half of the hon. Gentleman's question, we are, of course, as frank as we can possibly be in matters of this kind, but the hon. Gentleman must understand that there are operational considerations. On the specific allegations contained in the book referred to in the question, the hon. Gentleman is asking for the publication of a Garda report to the Irish Director of Public Prosecutions. We would not publish such a report in this country and the House would be astonished if we did. It would be even more exceptional for us to ask the Irish to do so. Investigations have been conducted on both sides of the border and in co- operation between the two police forces. I am satisfied that the allegations have been thoroughly investigated and reported to both Directors of Public Prosecutions.
Health Services
Rev. Martin Smyth : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assessment he has made of the effect which Irish Republican Army terrorist actions have on the provision of health services for the population in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Richard Needham) : Any terrorist crime that maims or kills addsto the cost of care and therefore reduces resources in other parts of the National Health Service.
Rev. Martin Smyth : I welcome that frank admission by the Minister because we are often told that we are spending undue amounts of money in Northern Ireland. Will he join me in paying tribute to the specialists, doctors, nurses, the professions supplemental to medicine, the ambulance workers and the ancillaries for their tremendous work throughout the long years of terrorism?
Mr. Needham : Of course, Sir. That goes without saying. In Northern Ireland we have one of the finest Health Services not only anywhere in the country, but anywhere in Europe, and we are deeply indebted to those who work in it.
Mr. Stott : I support what the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) said about the Health Service in Northern Ireland. The Minister will be aware that all the catering services of the Western health board have been privatised to a company called Gardner Merchant. Can he confirm that Anderson house, a former maternity unit that is now closed, is being used as free office space by that company? Is he further aware that Gardner Merchant is using telephones and stationery supplied by the Western health board? Is he aware that an environmental health investigation into the kitchens at three hospitals found dirty dishes left lying around overnight, floors not cleaned, meals arriving up to one hour late, staffing being halved and junior doctors in Altnagelvin hospital complaining about the standards of hygiene? Is not privatisation doing more damage to the Health Service in Northern Ireland than the terrorists ever could?
Mr. Needham : The original question referred to IRA terrorism and its effect on the Health Service. I can
Column 1147
understand the hon. Gentleman wishing to make his political points, but they are hardly in line with the question.On the point about competitive tendering, clearly we should encourage anything that reduces costs in one area in Northern Ireland and can lead to more spending on direct health care. Although Northern Ireland has been slower going down that road than elsewhere in the country, as the hon. Gentleman is fully aware, £1.3 million can now be saved by the Western health board and go directly to improved patient services.
Mr. Bellingham : Is the Minister aware that it is always possible to find isolated examples of standards being below par? Can he confirm that expenditure on the NHS in Northern Ireland per head of population is much higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom?
Mr. Needham : It is higher than elsewhere in the United Kingdom because we have a higher incidence of disease and poverty there. Since 1979, the amount of money that we have spent on the Health Service has increased from £690 million to over £1 billion. That is a real increase of over 20 per cent. We can be justifiably proud of our record.
Security
5. Mr. William Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
7. Mr. Molyneaux : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in Northern Ireland.
9. Mr. Riddick : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the latest security situation.
12. Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement about the security situation in the Province.
Mr. Brooke : Since my predecessor answered a similar question on 22 July, 23 people have been killed in Northern Ireland in incidents directly related to terrorism. They included 12 civilians, six regular soldiers, a part-time member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and four members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. From the beginning of this year until 30 October, 360 people have been charged with serious terrorist offences in Northern Ireland and large quantities of lethal weapons, ammunition and explosives have been recovered, in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
I am sure that the whole House will join me in condemning the horrific attack in Derryard last night and in extending sympathy to the families of the soldiers killed or injured. We pay tribute to the courage and resolution of all members of the security forces, who have never flinched in their determination to protect the ordinary decent people of Northern Ireland, prevent terrorist activity and bring terrorist criminals to justice.
Mr. Ross : Did yesterday's carefully planned murders in Northern Ireland convince the Secretary of State that there must be no ambiguity about the need to bring about the total military defeat of the IRA? He did not mention that in his answer. Does he accept that if that military defeat is to be brought about, the IRA must be convinced that it
Column 1148
will not succeed in detaching Northern Ireland from the United Kingdom? Does he further accept that only action will convince the IRA of the Government's firm intention, and that a major step would be to begin treating Northern Ireland, in local government powers and legislative matters, as though it were fully part of the United Kingdom? That is an action which he could put in hand straight away and which would be very telling to the IRA.Mr. Brooke : The Government's intention remains to defeat terrorism in all its forms by the concerting of military, social, economic and political policies. Those policies are designed to protect the right of the people of Northern Ireland to decide their future. In that sense, I freely give the commitment that the hon. Gentleman seeks. In the latter part of his question, he went a little wide of the security question.
Mr. Molyneaux : Out of respect for the dead and consideration for the bereaved, should we not stop claiming great improvements in security co -operation in the frontier region, particularly in the aftermath of yesterday's events and other similar incidents in which it is clear that the mobile strike forces of the IRA can assemble in the Irish Republic, carry out their dastardly deeds and return to a safe haven unhindered and along roads that have been illegally reopened in the frontier region?
Mr. Brooke : I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman shares my confidence in the commissioner of the Garda and the efforts of the Garda to follow up the dastardly crimes that were committed yesterday. I appreciate the frustration, particularly of people in the border areas, about the ability of terrorists to cross the border and return to the Republic. -- [Hon. Members : "They go both ways."] I agree that there are crossings in both directions. That is a matter which I have already brought most vividly to the attention of the Irish Government and I shall do so again on the next occasion.
Mr. Riddick : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that Martin Galvin, the Noraid representative in America, was involved in the illegal reopening of the Lacky bridge crossing over the weekend? Will he further confirm that the IRA terrorists who so callously murdered the two soldiers yesterday used that crossing to escape from Northern Ireland? Does he share my hope that Americans who might be tempted to support Noraid, believing it to be an innocuous organisation, will cease to give it help and support now that Martin Galvin has revealed Noraid for what we all know it to be?
Mr. Brooke : Mr. Galvin is said to have taken the action that my hon. Friend describes, but to ascribe more importance to Mr. Galvin than he warrants is unhelpful. I am not sure that my hon. Friend is correct in his analysis of the operational question, but I appreciate his main point.
Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : Will my right hon. Friend reaffirm that the Government will never give in to or be influenced by the terrorists? If those 421 British soldiers who have been killed in the Province since 1969 are not to have died in vain, should not the Government be able to prove that the Province is better governed now than it was previously? Should we not have the proper legislative procedures in this House to deal with Northern Ireland legislation which are so clearly lacking? Should we not put
Column 1149
before the leaders of the Northern Ireland parties political initiatives to give them a say, in the Province, in the affairs of their Province?Mr. Brooke : I wholly reiterate the commitment that my hon. Friend sought in the first part of his question. He asked about good government within Northern Ireland. I am confident that many who live in the Province would point to improvements that we have been able to effect across the life of the Province in recent years, and I hope that that will long continue. My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House and I are always happy to discuss the procedures of the House, but my hon. Friend's question on that goes a little wide of the specific question that I was asked.
Mr. Ashdown : May I congratulate the Secretary of State on his sensible comments several weeks ago which caused such a furore? Will he take it from me--I have had personal experience in three anti-terrorist campaigns--that he is right to say that the Army alone cannot defeat the terrorists? It is up to the Army to hold the reins and to maintain law and order while politicians achieve the solutions that defeat the terrorists. Is it not the case that politicians in Northern Ireland would better serve their nation if they showed more imagination and flexibility in achieving a political solution and less synthetic anger about what seemed an entirely sensible statement on the position in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his observations. At the time to which he refers I was asked a question and I sought to answer it straightforwardly. He raised the wider consideration of political advance. I concur with him that the defeat of terrorism will involve political, social and economic developments as well as military effort.
Rev. Ian Paisley : Will the Secretary of State confirm that all right-thinking people in Northern Ireland salute the memory and gallantry of Lance-Corporal Michael Paterson, aged 21, and Private James Houston, aged 22, of the 1st Battalion of the King's Own Scottish Borderers who were murdered savagely yesterday, and that our thoughts are with the other soldier who has been seriously injured? Will the Secretary of State comment on the remarks of the local Church of Ireland rector, who said :
"There seems to be complete apathy from the authorities. There seems to be no determination to see this violence at an end. I have tried talking to the Northern Ireland Office. They just will not listen."
Will the Secretary of State tell the House whether he confirms three statements which were reported largely in Northern Ireland newspapers? First, on 4 November, he said :
"The IRA could not be militarily defeated"--
Mr. Speaker : Order. This is Question Time. We should not have comments on statements of others.
| Next Section
| Home Page |