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Mr. Dalyell : This is my last intervention. Is the Minister sure that he is right? Was not the crucial decision to go to Coopers and Lybrand for the report that was wanted--not the "whether" but the "how" report-- taken inside the Treasury and Civil Service Department and not in the Department of the Environment?

Mr. Luce : Much though I should like to think that Ministers of the Civil Service are infallible, I fear that they are not. If I am wrong in these matters, I shall put it right with the hon. Gentleman by means of a letter or other contact.

The hon. Member for Bradford, South referred to the ethical standards of civil servants and the possibility of agencies being privatised. As a Minister with day-to-day responsibilities for the Civil Service, I attach great importance to the maintenance of the high ethical standards that the Civil Service already has. Certain rules, codes and guidelines on these matters can and must be followed. There are already rules and guidelines covering civil servants who wish to obtain a job outside the Civil Service. The rules involving the Diamond committee, of which the hon. Member for Bradford, South will be aware, are clear. Very high standards are maintained. Clearly, we must always ensure that there are no conflicts of interest. That is my duty and the duty of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister as Minister for the Civil Service. There is no evidence that civil servants as a whole have any wish to abuse those rules in any way.

The hon. Member for Bradford, South made another point which should be seriously considered. I apologise for not picking up the hon. Gentleman's point earlier in my wind-up speech on Second Reading. I could have reassured the hon. Gentleman then. The Government propose to introduce an amendment to make orders under new section 2B(8) subject to affirmative resolution. This was omitted in the drafting. I hope that this undertaking, which we can consider in Committee, will reassure the hon. Gentleman and answer his main point. Question put and agreed to.


That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Government Trading Bill, it is expedient to authorise--

(a) the payment out of the National Loans Fund or money provided by Parliament of sums required for the purpose of issues by way of loan to trading funds, subject to a limit of £2,000 million or such greater sum not exceeding £4,000 million as the Treasury may specify by order, and

(b) payments into the National Loans Fund or Consolidated Fund.

Column 786


Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 90(6) (Second Reading Committees), That the Bill be now read a Second time.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 61 (Committal of Bills).


Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 101 (Standing Committees on Statutory Instruments, &c.), That items 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13 (a)(e)(f)(g)(h)(i)(j)(k), 14 (a) (vi), 14 (b), 15, 17, 18 and 19 of Schedule 2 and items 2 and 3 of Schedule 3 to the Order in Council, entitled the Census Order 1989, a draft of which was laid before this House on 13th November, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved -- [Mr. Dorrell.] The House divided : Ayes 93, Noes 16.

Division No. 30] [9.23 pm


Alexander, Richard

Amos, Alan

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Atkins, Robert

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard

Brazier, Julian

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Chapman, Sydney

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Dorrell, Stephen

Durant, Tony

Fallon, Michael

Fookes, Dame Janet

Forth, Eric

Freeman, Roger

French, Douglas

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodlad, Alastair

Gorst, John

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hague, William

Hamilton, Hon Archie (Epsom)

Hanley, Jeremy

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Hind, Kenneth

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Hunt, David (Wirral W)

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)

Knapman, Roger

Knight, Greg (Derby North)

Knox, David

Lamont, Rt Hon Norman

Lawrence, Ivan

Lee, John (Pendle)

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Luce, Rt Hon Richard

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

Macfarlane, Sir Neil

MacGregor, Rt Hon John

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mans, Keith

Miller, Sir Hal

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Moynihan, Hon Colin

Neubert, Michael

Nicholls, Patrick

Norris, Steve

Paice, James

Patnick, Irvine

Patten, Rt Hon Chris (Bath)

Pawsey, James

Porter, David (Waveney)

Redwood, John

Renton, Rt Hon Tim

Riddick, Graham

Rowe, Andrew

Stern, Michael

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Summerson, Hugo

Thurnham, Peter

Trippier, David

Waller, Gary

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Sir John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wilshire, David

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Winterton, Nicholas

Wolfson, Mark

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Tom Sackville and

Mr. John M. Taylor.


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