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Mr. Squire : I did not make the point clear when I read the letter from my own borough secretary because I did not want to take up too much time. I must now make it clear that my borough secretary confirmed that an informal approach had been made, but, as he put it, as the purpose of the discussion would in no way reduce ultimately the presence of the Bill--and it is the principle to which Havering objects--no discussion took place.Mr. Thorne : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. It is important that people try to get together in these matters and to resolve issues, because if that had been done at an earlier stage the defects that my hon. Friend saw in the Bill on Second Reading might have been overcome before the matter ever arrived in the House. Many of the corrections that have now been made would have been ironed out before the Bill arrived in the House--if it ever arrived at all. My local authority is not wholly to blame for the changes that have taken place--quite properly-- as a result of the deliberations in the Opposed Private Bill Committee. We have already covered the question of the number of markets, so I shall not say more on that point.
The hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Pike) raised an important point--
Mr. Squire : I am making the assumption that my hon. Friend has disposed of my argument. I hope that before he finishes he will tackle the question that I raised briefly about the measurement of profit and whether we are talking about market traders or someone else.
Mr. Thorne : I dealt with that point at the time and said to my hon. Friend that I felt that he was confusing the market operator with the market trader. We are, of course, talking about the profit to the market operator and that is the basis on which profit is to be calculated. It would not be difficult for a competent accountant to calculate that. It is a question of calculating the number of rents that have been received in a year, and the number of outgoings for the management and the running of the market. That would be relatively easy and straightforward, and it would not require many qualified people to cover it. I have every confidence that the right figure will be produced at the right time without too much difficulty. The Bill also provides for interest on late payments, so that matter has been covered. There is no point in any delay and I am sure that none will ensue.
The hon. Member for Burnley raised some interesting points, especially on the historical side. I was grateful to him for the way in which he described how various towns had been built six and two thirds miles apart, probably on the road from London to York. Eventually, through horrible ribbon development, they may have been joined up. Perhaps they are attractive towns or cities now with one franchise market at each end of the high street.
He also raised the question of substantial investment. If the market is to be successful, it must have major investment. It is no good any more doing these things on a shoestring. A piece of wood on a couple of wheels is no longer adequate. One has to produce something far more attractive to attract the customers to the stall. We need to consider how frequently these markets take place nowadays, and whether that requires an overall view or whether the matter should be dealt with individually on its merits. Hon. Members have said that a change was last suggested about 90 years ago. My local authority would
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not want to wait 90 years for an answer. That is why it wants to pursue the matter now. This is not the first time that this has happened. There have been others--Bexley and so on--where reasonable agreements have been reached. That is perhaps the way that the public would wish the matter to be pursued so that it is properly considered.It is not an inexpensive operation to bring a private Bill here. Counsel and others have to be instructed. It will not be done quickly or on the cheap. The Opposed Private Bill Committee, which comprises two Opposition Members and two Conservative Members, with an Opposition Chairman, investigated the matter thoroughly from every angle, instructed by counsel on behalf of the two councils. Therefore, I believe that we should accept what our colleagues have recommended to the House and that the Bill should proceed to consideration. Question put, That the Bill, as amended, be now considered :-- The House divided : Ayes 56, Noes 24.
Division No. 63] [9.06 pm
AYES
Amess, David
Arbuthnot, James
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Beith, A. J.
Bendall, Vivian
Boswell, Tim
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Browne, John (Winchester)
Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)
Carlisle, John, (Luton N)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Chapman, Sydney
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cormack, Patrick
Fearn, Ronald
Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Fookes, Dame Janet
Forth, Eric
Fox, Sir Marcus
Garel-Jones, Tristan
Glyn, Dr Sir Alan
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)
Hague, William
Harris, David
Hawkins, Christopher
Hunt, David (Wirral W)
Irvine, Michael
Jack, Michael
Janman, Tim
Kennedy, Charles
Kilfedder, James
King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)
Knight, Greg (Derby North)
Lawrence, Ivan
Maclean, David
Maclennan, Robert
Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick
Nicholls, Patrick
Page, Richard
Paisley, Rev Ian
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Riddick, Graham
Sackville, Hon Tom
Shaw, David (Dover)
Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)
Summerson, Hugo
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)
Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)
Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Thorne, Neil
Thurnham, Peter
Walker, Bill (T'side North)
Widdecombe, Ann
Wilshire, David
Wood, Timothy
Tellers for the Ayes :
Mr. Jacques Arnold and
Mr. Nicholas Bennett.
NOES
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Cryer, Bob
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)
Dixon, Don
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth
Durant, Tony
Gill, Christopher
Golding, Mrs Llin
Gregory, Conal
Haynes, Frank
McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)
Meale, Alan
Nellist, Dave
Neubert, Michael
O'Brien, William
Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Snape, Peter
Spearing, Nigel
Wareing, Robert N.
Wells, Bowen
Wray, Jimmy
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Robin Squire and
Mr. Peter Pike.
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Question accordingly agreed to.Bill, as amended, considered.
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