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North-East (Mr. Campbell) said that they would shorten them. It is hardly surprising that Liberal Members have put their names to these extraordinary amendments.

Under amendment No. 9, students in higher education outside universities in Scotland would not have access to extra resources provided by loans, while those at university in Scotland would receive the benefits of loans.

Under amendment No. 10, students from north of the border would have access to loan facilities to study in England and Wales, while those from the south would apparently have access to a loan if they were studying at university but not at other institutions in Scotland. I cannot conceive of a system that would be more damaging to Scottish higher education.

Whatever the intention of the amendments, the long-standing convention is that support arrangements for students undertaking courses of higher education should be broadly the same throughout the United Kingdom. Although student support in Scotland is governed by different legislation and administered by a different Department, we operate on the principle of broad comparability of treatment. I am sure that that system is in the interest of Scottish higher education, and I see no reason to depart from it. To do so in the way proposed by the amendments would mean that some students would enjoy the benefit of additional resources, while others undertaking the same or similar courses would not. There can be no justification for such a distinction.

Much has been made of the disincentive effect of loans for students wishing to take the Scottish four-year honours degree, but the point has to be made yet again that four-year degree courses are not unique to Scotland ; nor are all Scottish degrees of four years' duration. Any special provision for them would thus create more anomalies than it would resolve, particularly in relation to even longer courses, such as those for medicine and architecture, to which the hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) referred.

10.15 pm

There is no sound reason for altering the basic principle that a loan should be made available for each year of the course, irrespective of its nature or length. A four-year degree course must by definition be more expensive than a three-year course, for all concerned : for the institution, the student support system, the parents and the student, in terms of both time and deferred earnings.

We allow the students themselves to make the judgment of additional cost versus added value, and we then offer them positive help to take the course of their choice. Students on four-year courses already receive more assistance by way of maintenance and tuition fees than their counterparts on three-year courses, and those students will enjoy the same positive benefits under the loan facility for each year of their course.

The threat that hon. Members perceive to the Scottish higher education system is not supported by the facts : the fact that the full-time student population has risen over the past decade in Scotland by around 15,000--an increase of over one fifth ; the fact that the number of entrants to higher education has risen from around 18 per cent. of the relevant age group 10 years ago to over 21 per cent. by 1988 and that by 1991-92 it is on target for 23 per cent.--a level which our colleagues south of the border hope to reach by the end of the century. It is hardly surprising that

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the Education Scotsman, on Wednesday 20 December, had a headline "Scotland reaches tertiary target a decade early".

Student award applications for 1989-90 are up over 70,000 for the first time, despite the demographic downturn. We in the Scottish Office, the universities and the central institutions are all planning and funding for a further increase in 1991. So to talk of closure of colleges as a result of the student loan system, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. Watson) did, is alarmist nonsense.

I do not believe that the prospect of an extra year's study and a somewhat larger loan commitment will discourage students who want to embark on a broad-based Scottish four-year honours degree course. We already know, for example, that some 25 per cent. of the students undertaking four-year courses at Scottish universities come from elsewhere in the United Kingdom. That is evidence of the value which students attach to those courses. They accept the delay in entering the jobs market that the longer course means. I believe that they will be unshaken in their commitment by top-up loans.

I am in no doubt at all that a student's own perception of the nature and content of the course, together with his assessment of the value of the final qualification--a point very ably made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon, South (Mr. Marshall)--will continue to be the most significant factor in the choice of institution and course. To suggest otherwise would mean that the additional year was of little value to students, and there is no evidence to support that theory.

For many years, we have had a broadly uniform system of student support in the United Kingdom. These amendments would end that uniformity and introduce a whole host of anomalies. They would be to the detriment of Scottish higher education, and I invite the House to reject them.

Mr. Wallace : I want first to take up what the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale (Mr. Lang), said when he tried to make the very technical point that if these amendments were passed it would put Scottish students at Scottish universities and colleges, or those from elsewhere in the United Kingdom attending Scottish universities, in a different position, as they would not be entitled to the loans to which students attending colleges elsewhere in the United Kingdom would be entitled. In the strict technical sense that is true, but it is not possible for the Opposition, in framing amendments to this Bill, to make provision--because of the rules of which you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and the Minister are well aware--for the grant system to continue in Scotland and for it to be increased each year in line with inflation.

The Minister cannot be saying that if it is the will of the House that the loans scheme should not apply to Scottish institutions of higher education we shall be left high and dry. The will of the House would be perfectly clear--that the present grant system should continue in Scotland. If the Minister is saying that he will campaign throughout Scotland and say to the students in Galloway and Upper Nithsdale that it will leave them high and dry, he is in for a rude awakening. I do not believe for one minute that that is precisely what he means.

When he resumed his speech after the vote on the business motion, the Minister said that there was a contradiction between my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) and my

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right hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel). Clearly, the Minister cannot understand the distinction between my hon. and learned Friend saying that many Scottish universities are considering the need to reduce their honours courses to three years and my right hon. Friend saying that the length of time that it would take students to complete that course might increase to six or seven years. Perhaps he was not paying attention. If that is the case, he should not try to make smart comments about those points.

Mr. Lang indicated dissent.

Mr. Wallace : I see that the Minister is shaking his head. He was probably paying attention, so he cannot have understood the difference. Perhaps he should go back to university.

The Bill is a disgrace. On a later amendment, we shall focus on how little is in it and how much will be left for orders. There is little reference in it to Scotland. There are one or two passing references to Scottish legislation and Scottish places of education, but the only substantive provision relating to Scotland is paragraph 5 of schedule 2, which is headed "Insolvency : Scotland". It speaks volumes that the Government are having to make specific provision for Scotland in the context of debt failure.

Mr. Allan Stewart : The hon. Gentleman made the same point on Second Reading. Why is he delaying the House by repeating it?

Mr. Wallace : Because despite the fact that the Bill has gone through Committee, there has not been much improvement, so the point is worth making again, if only to underline it.

If the Government consider it right and proper, having regard to the distinctive legal system in Scotland, to enact separate legislation for major reforms to the legal system in Scotland, as distinct from that in England and Wales, why should one of the other great pillars of the Scottish nation--its education system--be lumped in with arrangements for England and Wales?

What depressed me most about the Minister's speech was when he said that, although Scotland had a four-year honours course, other places, too, had courses lasting for more than three years. He did not not seem to appreciate the importance and distinctiveness of that four-year honours course. Again, that must be the result of not listening. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fife, North-East clearly illustrated how the four-year honours course in Scotland follows from a broad-based system of secondary education. The two are interlinked, so to take away what underpins one threatens the other. That is why Opposition Members, especially those who represent Scottish constituencies, are so concerned about the damage that we believe will be done to Scottish education if the Bill is passed. Even if we accept the Minister's argument that there are other places where courses are longer than three years, we must wonder what will happen, for example, to teacher training. After four years, students will have to go through another year of teacher training, which will mean another year of debt round their necks before they start to earn--and we all know how little teachers earn, especially in the early years.

One distinctive feature of the Scottish university system is its four-year course and its broad base. Another is that

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far more pupils in Scotland go to local authority-maintained schools than is the case in England and Wales. That is part of the Scottish tradition. As a constituent said in one of the many letters that I have received, education is not a privilege ; it is a right. The Government seek to bring into effect in Scotland what is already the case in England, where education is seen as a privilege rather than a right. We fear that, by putting these financial burdens on students, youngsters from poorer homes will be unable to afford to take on the burden of going to university, or will think twice about it.

If Conservative Members do not believe me, I shall quote from a letter I received from a constituent at Edinburgh university. She said :

"If these plans are implemented then students will lose all entitlement to housing benefit and income support. They will have their grant frozen and be eligible for a loan of £420 a year. Fortunately, I am in the position where I rely on my parents' contribution to finance my education. However, the proposals spell disaster for my colleagues and education in the future."

Not just the additional burden of loans but all the changes in housing benefit and the social security regulations, as well as the imposition of the poll tax, will make it far less attractive for Scottish students to go to university and fulfil their potential. Government policy is shortsighted in the extreme because it means a loss not only to individuals, which is important in itself, but to society and the community as a whole if those individuals cannot fulfil their potential and cannot add their skills to the wellbeing and welfare of the community.

The hon. Member for Moray (Mrs. Ewing) talked about developments in eastern Europe and the opportunities and challenges involved in them. My right hon. Friend the Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale made a similar point in his intervention. It is disappointing that in a letter which I received today the Minister of State said that provision would not be made from Scottish Office funds to enable a Czechoslovakian student, who has spent some time at the Anderson high school in my constituency, to take up a place at Glasgow university if he meets the academic requirements. It is said that where there is no vision, the people perish. I cannot imagine the West German, French or Italian Governments being so narrow-minded in regard to the opportunities opening up in eastern Europe. No doubt those Governments are welcoming eastern European students to their universities, but our Government are putting up financial barriers. I conclude by disagreeing with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Fife, North-East on one point. He said that if the Government are trying to change the system of education in Scotland, including secondary education, we should debate that here, and not through the mechanism of this tawdry little Bill. I do not believe that we should debate it here ; we should be debating it in a Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided : Ayes 144, Noes 201.

Division No. 79] [10.26 pm

AYES

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald

Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barron, Kevin

Beggs, Roy

Beith, A. J.

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Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Bermingham, Gerald

Boateng, Paul

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Canavan, Dennis

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Clay, Bob

Clelland, David

Cohen, Harry

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cousins, Jim

Crowther, Stan

Cryer, Bob

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Eadie, Alexander

Eastham, Ken

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fatchett, Derek

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fisher, Mark

Flannery, Martin

Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

Foster, Derek

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Garrett, John (Norwich South)

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Golding, Mrs Llin

Graham, Thomas

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Harman, Ms Harriet

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Home Robertson, John

Hood, Jimmy

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Howells, Geraint

Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

Hoyle, Doug

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

Kennedy, Charles

Kilfedder, James

Kirkwood, Archy

Lambie, David

Lamond, James

Leadbitter, Ted

Livsey, Richard

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McCrea, Rev William

McGrady, Eddie

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

McKelvey, William

McLeish, Henry

Maclennan, Robert

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Mallon, Seamus

Marshall, David (Shettleston)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Maxton, John

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Mitchell, Austin (G't Grimsby)

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morgan, Rhodri

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Nellist, Dave

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

O'Brien, William

Paisley, Rev Ian

Pendry, Tom

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Primarolo, Dawn

Quin, Ms Joyce

Redmond, Martin

Richardson, Jo

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Ross, William (Londonderry E)

Rowlands, Ted

Ruddock, Joan

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Spearing, Nigel

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Steinberg, Gerry

Stott, Roger

Straw, Jack

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Thomas, Dr Dafydd Elis

Walker, A. Cecil (Belfast N)

Wallace, James

Wareing, Robert N.

Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)

Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)

Winnick, David

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Worthington, Tony

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. John Battle and

Mr. Frank Haynes.

NOES

Adley, Robert

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashby, David

Atkinson, David

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Batiste, Spencer

Bellingham, Henry

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bevan, David Gilroy

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blaker, Rt Hon Sir Peter

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