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Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South) : We have been debating a number of different issues more or less simultaneously which may be confusing to those hearing or watching these proceedings. The first part of the debate on these matters was spent deciding how long we should

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debate them and whether an amendment should be made. In that debate, matters were rehearsed relating to the substance of the motions on the Order Paper.

In the past three quarters of an hour, we have discussed one motion which relates to a well-founded attempt by the Leader of the House, supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr. Cunningham), to stop a gap which was ingeniously discovered by the hon. Member for Maidstone (Miss Widdecombe) and her hon. Friends in pursuit of a controversial private Member's Bill. A gap in the procedures was found by which to extend, through private Members' motions, the opportunity for debate on private Members' Bills, which were otherwise limited in time. None of us would deny the hon. Lady's right to attempt that.

The main question is whether, in the balance of the private Members' time available, that facility should be used and whether it is desirable. Although I agree that the hon. Member for Maidstone had the right to make that attempt, the balance of private Members' time should be retained as it is, and that path should be closed. I disagree in some measure with the motion because of the method used to close it. I am concerned with paragraph (d). I fully understand why it was inserted.

It would seem necessary and common sense to deal with the situation precipitated by the hon. Member for Maidstone. I understand that the motion was tabled without much notice. I agree with the hon. Member for Berwick- upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) that, perhaps inadvertently, the inclusion of paragraph (d) precludes any Member from tabling a motion to amend Standing Orders at any time, however much notice is given--whether it has been promoted by the Procedure Committee or otherwise. That encroachment on private Members' rights may need to be considered again.

I ask the Leader of the House, who takes these matters seriously and my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland to consider the motion again, if it is passed, so that Members' rights are maintained without allowing the route taken by the hon. Member for Maidstone to be followed. I hope that, even if the Leader of the House cannot accept an amendment--I hope that he will-- the motion will be ameliorated.

6.58 pm

Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire, South) : The motions do not touch on the subjects on which the hon. Member for Bolsover, (Mr. Skinner) spoke--the power of Back Benchers and the right of the legislature to curb the Executive. In the two minutes that are left I simply wish to say that I hope that the House will do something to redress the balance between the power of the legislature and the power of the Executive.

The House should be a curb on the Executive which scrutinises properly. Instead we have become a tool of the Executive. That has distorted the balance of power in this country. It is time for another Dunning's motion that the power of the Executive has increased, is increasing and ought to be diminished.

Question put, That the amendment be made :--

The House divided : Ayes 83, Noes 218.

Division No. 90] [7 pm

AYES

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

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Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Bermingham, Gerald

Bradley, Keith

Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Clay, Bob

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cryer, Bob

Dalyell, Tam

Day, Stephen

Dover, Den

Eadie, Alexander

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Flannery, Martin

Forsythe, Clifford (Antrim S)

Gill, Christopher

Gordon, Mildred

Gorman, Mrs Teresa

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Gregory, Conal

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Heffer, Eric S.

Hinchliffe, David

Hood, Jimmy

Howells, Geraint

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Robert G. (Harrow W)

Jessel, Toby

Johnston, Sir Russell

Kennedy, Charles

Kilfedder, James

Knowles, Michael

Lamond, James

Lawrence, Ivan

Livingstone, Ken

Livsey, Richard

McAvoy, Thomas

Maclennan, Robert

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Marlow, Tony

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Martlew, Eric

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Mills, Iain

Molyneaux, Rt Hon James

Montgomery, Sir Fergus

Nellist, Dave

Patchett, Terry

Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Primarolo, Dawn

Shersby, Michael

Skinner, Dennis

Smyth, Rev Martin (Belfast S)

Stanbrook, Ivor

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Summerson, Hugo

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Waller, Gary

Watts, John

Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

Widdecombe, Ann

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Alan Beith and

Mr. Nigel Spearing.

NOES

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Allen, Graham

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

Ashby, David

Aspinwall, Jack

Atkins, Robert

Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Baldry, Tony

Batiste, Spencer

Battle, John

Beaumont-Dark, Anthony

Beckett, Margaret

Benyon, W.

Bevan, David Gilroy

Biffen, Rt Hon John

Blunkett, David

Bonsor, Sir Nicholas

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Boswell, Tim

Bottomley, Peter

Bottomley, Mrs Virginia

Bowis, John

Brandon-Bravo, Martin

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brooke, Rt Hon Peter

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Browne, John (Winchester)

Bruce, Ian (Dorset South)

Buck, Sir Antony

Buckley, George J.

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butler, Chris

Butterfill, John

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Carrington, Matthew

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Churchill, Mr

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Colvin, Michael

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Couchman, James

Cox, Tom

Critchley, Julian

Cummings, John

Cunningham, Dr John

Curry, David

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Davis, David (Boothferry)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Dickens, Geoffrey

Dixon, Don

Dorrell, Stephen

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Duffy, A. E. P.

Dunn, Bob

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Durant, Tony

Dykes, Hugh

Eastham, Ken

Eggar, Tim

Emery, Sir Peter

Fallon, Michael

Favell, Tony

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