House of Commons Hansard Debates for 23 Feb 1990

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : It is possible to restore a path quickly, and most farmers do that. As always, we are dealing with a minority who will not do it, who overlook their responsibility or who, in some cases, are deliberately obstructive. The NFU has taken a positive line on this. It recognises that it is very much in the interests of farmers generally to have an unobstructed network of rights of way because it often avoids trespass, which can result from rights of way that simply peter out in a ploughed field and do not clearly sign the way forward for those seeking to cross the fields.

When the issue was approached, there were differences of interest. It is a tribute to the working party set up under the rights of way review committee that it sought and achieved the necessary consensus.

Dr. Woodcock : I listened carefully to my hon. Friend's response to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr Bennett). I heard my hon. Friend say that most farmers reinstate footpaths and that we are dealing only with a

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minority who cause problems. My hon. Friend may recall that in my speech, I said that in 25 years of walking in the countryside, I had never seen a footpath restored properly by a farmer. Although I want to encourage the restoration of footpaths by farmers--and I applaud any farmer who does so--will my hon. Friend tell us from where he is obtaining his information? Are there any national figures or surveys? What is the basis of his contention that most farmers reinstate footpaths?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : My hon. Friend may be able easily to identify paths that have not been restored, but how can he tell whether a path has been restored at some time in the past? Many agricultural operations cause the temporary disruption or blocking of a footpath, but the footpath is restored and reopened. My source of information is my Department, the Countryside Commission and the rights of way review committee. I do not want to minimise the problem. In giving way and through the Government's support for the Bill on Second Reading, I am acknowledging that problems exist, but I do not seek to suggest that most or all farmers are blocking footpaths by ploughing.

Dr. Woodcock : It may be a fairly minor point, but the Minister asked how I or any walker knew that footpaths had not been reinstated. I collect my evidence simply from coming across arable fields that have been farmed, where the clear lines of the plough can be seen and where the footpath has not been reinstated. In the fairly extensive growing season, one can clearly see crops growing across paths.

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I shall not repeat the point at length. However, I seek to suggest to my hon. Friend that when he finds a path that has not been restored, it is a problem, which he has drawn to the attention of the House. I agree that it is too frequent. However, when he is going along a path unobstructed, he cannot know whether that path had been ploughed over or otherwise disturbed and later reinstated. Almost by definition, one finds the problems, whereas paths that have been properly managed in the past and may have been reinstated by responsible farmers are not a problem. I suggest that my hon. Friend should not overlook the many farmers and agricultural interests who take their responsibilities seriously. No single group that comes together to address the issue can get everything that it wants. What is impressive, even in our debate today, is that hon. Members of all parties have given general assent to the Bill. That arises out of the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle has achieved the explicit support of the NFU, the Country Landowners Association, the Ramblers Association, the British Horse Society and local authority representatives. We have heard from the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) and from my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Dr. Woodcock) that they would like the Bill to do additional things. I ask them earnestly to bear in mind that a private Member's Bill is a fragile vessel. It is vulnerable to storms and squalls-- if not in this House certainly in another place. I ask them not to upset the vessel in which my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle has launched himself.

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The provisions of the Bill have been explained by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle in some detail. There may be disappointment that the Bill does not go further or that it does not do everything. It is essentially a measure which clarifies and builds on existing provisions. It will allow local authorities to get tough with those who flout the law. It will penalise persistent offenders and effective enforcement action will demonstrate that it is no longer possible for landowners and farmers to ignore their responsibilities. It will ensure that compliance rests squarely with the occupier, who will not be able to excuse himself because of the inaction of contractors. Rights of way across arable land will be clearly delineated on the ground. The farmer who has always followed the law has nothing to fear.

I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle said ; the Bill is not an excuse for farmer bashing. For centuries, farmers have shaped the countryside, as I have already made clear. My hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden has made the point that many footpaths, byways and bridleways were laid down by the forefathers of the people who presently farm in the countryside. Generally, farmers welcome the making of paths. It clarifies where people have the right to go and prevents trespass.

Naturally, farmers are bothered by irresponsible walkers. There are people who leave gates open, who leave litter, who light fires, who allow stock to get out and who fail to control dogs. It is true that rights entail obligations. I cannot wave a magic wand to make people behave properly in the countryside. However, I urge all who deal with countryside matters and who belong to access organisations to stress that access to the countryside entails an obligation to respect the rural environment and those who seek to make a living there. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle has presented a Bill that is a helpful clarification of the rights of way.

Mr. Harry Greenway : Before my hon. Friend sits down, will he refer to the important question of the width of bridleways?

Mr. Heathcoat-Amory : I must emphasise that I am not answering the debate, but contributing to it. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend's points. We shall come back in Committee to the question of the minimum and maximum widths of rights of way. I listened with particular interest to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway) about the problem of restoring paths over heavy or flinty soils. Separate from this legislation, I shall draw the attention of the working party to my hon. Friend's remarks. In consultation with the working party, we might be able to cover in circular advice or in a revised code of practice the need to restore paths as my hon. Friend suggests.

The Bill represents a welcome clarification of rights of way. It has been drafted competently but, inevitably, very quickly. In all cases, laws must be simple and straightforward and beyond argument. Therefore, while the Government back the Bill in principle, we shall wish to examine its provisions closely to ensure that they are all workable and clear in law. The question of minimum and maximum widths must apply solely for the purpose of the

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Bill. We shall want to look at its scope as it affects highways in general and examine the proposed penalties to ensure that they are consistent.

All those matters can be resolved in Committee. We shall hope to keep Government-sponsored amendments to a minimum. We shall seek to emulate the work of the working party and to secure improvements by compromise. We shall also be looking to the review committee, under the chairmanship of my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden to advise us whether, when the Bill is passed, we need additional advice to cover practical details that are inappropriate for primary legislation.

The committee's resolution of disagreements can have a fundamental influence on policy and practice in future. One of the good things to come out of the Bill is that it will show that we can see the way forward on these difficult questions of access. There are several others that have attracted the attention of the House. We can see a way forward by agreement and compromise. I have no hesitation in commending the Bill to the House ; the Government support its Second Reading.

12.30 pm

Ms. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) : The Minister prefaced his comments with a reference to the general housing survey. He told us that the most popular leisure pursuit was walking while the next most popular was swimming. I am a keen walker and a keen swimmer and I therefore feel particularly well qualified to take part in the debate. The Minister is clearly not as aware as some Members of just how many paths have been ploughed up and how it affects the paths network, or of how difficult it is to walk from one place to another where there is ploughing up. It poses a real problem for keen walkers.

Perhaps the Department of the Environment does not have figures, but surveys have been conducted by the Countryside Commission and voluntary surveys made by Ramblers Association groups throughout the country. In 1982 -83, the association's Cambridge group carried out a survey of paths in south Cambridgeshire. Of 1,276 paths, 405 were ploughed up and few have been reinstated. A survey of most paths in the borough of Maidstone, in Kent, carried out by the association's Maidstone group in 1988 said :

"Following massive publicity on this subject"--

the reinstatement of paths after ploughing--

"from the Countryside Commission, National Farmers Union, Kent County Council and district councils to landowners the resultant activity by the latter was hardly noticeable. The result was that during the maximum period of growth a considerable number of rights of way became obstructed by crops --oilseed rape being the biggest offender."

That is why the Bill has our support--not our qualified but our unqualified support. I congratulate the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) on his choice of subject : it really is a worthy Bill.

Membership of organisations such as Ramblers Association, the Youth Hostels Association, the National Trust and the Open Spaces Society, which promote access to the countryside, has never been higher. That reflects the extent to which people want access to the countryside. It is certain that the Bill will be welcomed by all members of those organisations and by everyone from town and country including hon. Members on both sides of the House who enjoys walking. The single most important

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recreational facility in the countryside is the right of way network. Unfortunately, as we have heard this morning, legislation has never fully protected or maintained it.

The Opposition welcome the Bill and believe that it takes us one or two small but important steps in the right direction. We recognise that a tremendous amount of background work preceded the Bill. A very unlikely accord has broken out among the key associations with an interest in rights of way, including the National Farmers Union, the Country Landowners Association and the Ramblers Association. It is rare to see such constructive co-operation among bodies whose interests are usually contradictory. The Bill is an opportunity to include the Moorlands Society which perhaps has not been so keen to debate the issues. There should be co -operation before we resort to compulsion to get access to the rights of way that we all want. We welcome the proposals and will do all that we can to handle the Bill with care and assist its overdue passage on to the statute book. We firmly believe in the public's right to enjoy the countryside. We believe that the legal right to access should be extended to common land, mountains, moors and heaths. We are critical of farmers and landowners who, intentionally or otherwise, prevent the general public from enjoying their legal right to walk along public footpaths or bridleways.

The network of public footpaths and bridleways which by tradition has allowed the landless to get out into the countryside has been eroded in recent years. We need to ensure that we have comprehensive legislation to redress all the deficiencies in access to the countryside. We need legislation that will give local authorities the resources and powers to restore our footpaths network. We could have had such legislation in the Environmental Protection Bill which is currently in Committee. I wish that the Minister had told us why that Bill was not used as a vehicle to iron out some of the many deficiencies, loopholes and anomalies in current legislation. Why was not the Government's professed concern about the environment matched by a commitment to deal with rights of way, access, perhaps even freedom to wander and to common land? Why could not the Government provide time for those issues in their parliamentary programme? The Conservative party manifesto commitment on those issues is clear and it is a pity that we have not had comprehensive legislation to cover those problems. None the less, this private Members' Bill will be an important step forward. I take this opportunity to put on record the bad drafting of the Environmental Protection Bill. Schedule 5(7) to the Bill amends the National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 which set up the National Parks Commission, while the Countryside Act 1968 set up the Countryside Commission to promote access to the countryside through the use of footpaths.

The Welsh element is ignored in the Environmental Protection Bill and the Ramblers Association is concerned about the commitment to Welsh rights of way. The proposals are a contentious part of the Environmental Protection Bill and we hope that they will not reach the statute book in their present form. Does not the Minister recognise that there are fears that the separate Welsh body, as currently proposed, will abandon the Countryside Commission's rights of way targets by the year 2000?

The Bill deals with one aspect of the many issues relating to rights of way --the extent to which ploughing

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and other activities prevent proper access to our footpath network. That is very important. The National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act 1949 did not resolve the matter ; it produced grey areas with which we have had to live ever since. It is impossible for local authorities to deal effectively with obstructions to footpaths and rights of way. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 tinkered with the legislation, but failed to help.

As we heard from the hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst) the next attempt to put things right was the voluntary code of practice drawn up in 1986 between the Countryside Commission and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The code was sent to smallholders and farmers in England and Wales. It would have been nice to think that that voluntary code of practice could work, but clearly it has not. That is why there is an urgent need for new legislation to put the matter right. Some farmers may have tried to put things right, but many, and perhaps the majority, have not. There was no prospect of getting the entire footpath circuit clear of obstructions.

The further failure to put things right in the Environmental Protection Bill as currently drafted means that this is our only reasonable chance in the lifetime of this Government clearly to determine the duties of farmers and local authorities to restore land for public access. Farmers will know that they are under an obligation to keep paths free, and local authorities will have clearly defined duties to enforce the law, using default powers where necessary so that the process can be self-financing.

I wish that the Minister had spent a little time dealing with resources, whose importance was stressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett). All hon. Members recognise that a private Member's Bill is not a vehicle for increased public spending, but we must recognise also that there are resource implications.

The Countryside Commission's survey shows the extent to which we are paying the price of years of neglect of our footpath network. Farmers have taken advantage of the fact that local authorities do not have clear duties and resources to keep footpaths clear. Even though local councils have a statutory duty under the Highways Act 1980 to protect and assert the public's rights and to maintain rights of way, they have rarely been able to do that work properly. Will the Minister tell us, now or in the future, what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport? Why does the transport supplementary grant to highways authorities invariably give money to named traffic schemes but not give sufficient money to the highways committee to carry out its duties under the Highways Act? Will the Minister make it clear to the Secretary of State for the Environment that the poll tax and the amount of money available to local councils will make it less likely that they can increase spending on the footpath network? Why cannot the Government tell us how many highway authorities are unable to carry out their statutory duties? How many highway authorities must be supplemented by the discretionary powers of the Countryside Commission, stretching money that could be spent on circular walks and leaflets to basic rights of way work?

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Hon. Members should be aware that walkers belong to all age groups and social classes. As a nation whose perception of environmental issues is growing, our deep desire to get out into the countryside and away from pollution is also growing. It is a national scandal that our rights of way network is in such a poor state. It is a national scandal that someone setting out on a random two-mile walk shown on an Ordnance Survey map has only a one in three chance of getting through. There is a two in three chance of obstruction. The Minister must tell us how he proposes to finance the work that needs to be done by local authorities, voluntary groups and the Countryside Commission. Much of the work to the basic infrastructure was done by the Manpower Services Commission. It is all very well for the Minister for the Environment and Countryside to tell local authorities to ignore access at their peril, and say that they should look closely at their leisure budgets with a view to spending more on countryside access and recreation. Will he make available the resources? Will the expenditure be recognised in the standard spending assessments? Will the money granted to the Countryside Commission be increased by the necessary amount? There has been an increase in grant to the Countryside Commission, but the increase in its duties must be taken into account.

When will the Government take the initiative and give local authorities the resources they need to take the action that the Minister recommends? One clear problem lies not simply in the work that can be recovered by default payments but in the expense of appointing rights of way officers and ensuring that there are sufficient officers in the legal departments to allow court cases to be completed rather than left in suspense. What extra resources will the Countryside Commission have to meet its target of opening all rights of way by the year 2000?

I received a letter from David Fowler, the chairman of the Staffordshire ramblers association, asking me to support this private Member's Bill. In Staffordshire walking and rambling is now the most popular outdoor activity, but obstruction of rights of way due to ploughing continues to be a major problem in preserving access to countryside.

Paths in the national park are relatively accessible, as are the paths which Staffordshire county council tends. The problem is elsewhere on paths which are off the beaten track and which farmers and landowners feel that they can get away with not reinstating.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : Does my hon. Friend accept that it is unfortunate that Staffordshire county council seems to have a policy of dealing only with a network of paths which it considers to be important, rather than fulfilling its legal responsibility to ensure that all footpaths are clear of obstructions?

Ms. Walley : That issue has concerned the ramblers association in Staffordshire. I can reliably inform my hon. Friend that Staffordshire county council, in addition to its tremendous work in respect of reserves and footpaths which have been signposted, such as the Staffordshire way, to which it is committed, is ensuring, in close conjunction with the Countryside Commission, similar scrutiny of all paths. The Bill will assist greatly in that.

It is no use having some clearly defined paths if other paths are obstructed. All that happens is that the well-defined paths become over- used while the others are

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avoided. That creates too much congestion on one part of the network of paths, rather than enabling the whole network to be properly used. In Staffordshire we are keen that the latter should happen. We should see the fruits of our policy soon.

A point which has not been made is the importance of footpaths to the rural economy. Footpaths have never really been regarded as an asset, but surveys have established that every visitor to the countryside who goes out with the intention of walking spends between £5 and £6. It must be acknowledged that that could be a great boost to tourism and the local economy, particularly in areas that are taking a battering from Government economic policies. Farmers and landowners must realise that by opening up the network of footpaths they are contributing to the local economy.

In the absence of proper safeguards of access to our footpath network, it has been left to individual campaigners everywhere and the organisations that they have championed, such as the Ramblers Association and the National Trust, to fight for access to footpaths. We owe a great deal to their continuing vigilance and to the programme of protest walks which such organisations have sustained over the years. We owe a great deal to local authorities which produced the adopt-a-footpath scheme. The scheme was introduced by one of the abolished metropolitan councils. We have also encouraged local authorities to take action against farmers and landowners who defy legislation, knowing that the chances of action against them succeeding are remote.

Public anxiety about footpaths has never been greater. It is time for the Government to take a lead and defend the countryside, and the least that they can do is not to hinder the Bill. They should say what resources they will give to local authorities and they should increase the resources of the Countryside Commission. They should set out how they will effectively ensure that the Countryside Commission's target of a legally defined rights of way network, properly maintained and well publicised, will be met by the year 2000. The Government must ensure that everybody who wishes to explore the countryside is aware of his basic rights and responsibilities. The Bill will assist that process and it has our full support. We look forward to working closely with the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle in Committee to ensure that the legislation is enacted by the summer so that walkers can enjoy their holidays.

12.51 pm

Mr. David Nicholson (Taunton) : I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh) and for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst) on the part that they have played in bringing the Bill before the House. Both my hon. Friends worked hard on this matter and have brought together a remarkable array of disparate bodies such as the Department of the Environment, the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the two sides of agriculture--the National Farmers Union and the Country Landowners' Association--the Association of County Councils, ramblers and the British Horse Society, all of which have been mentioned.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle might consider the skill of the late Prince Bismarck the Chancellor of the German empire. It was said about his great power of diplomacy that he managed

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to keep together a collection of greased balls throughout his time as Chancellor. I assure my hon. Friend that that will be my last reference to globular objects.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle will recall that the last time that I spoke in the Chamber on 7 February he made a rather unkind intervention, and outrageously suggested that he and I should not believe the statistics issued by the Department of the Environment. I am sorry that the Minister has just left the Chamber. Perhaps he had some divine expectation that I would mention this subject.

I listened with interest to the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway). Unfortunately he is not present. He will be interested to know that I served on the Committee that examined the City of London (Various Powers) Bill. That private Member's Bill did not really deal with the normal activities of the City but with bridleways in Epping forest, the varying rights and responsibilities of horse riders, and the requirements of the environment, the countryside and walkers. I am happy to say that last week that Bill proceeded through the House. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North will also be happy about that. I cannot speak with great experience about horse riding. I have only once been seriously astride a four-footed beast. That was in the Kingdom of Jordan some 15 years ago when we were trekking across extremely rough country. I am sure that the beast that I was astride had formerly been used by the Abbasid Caliphs. It was extremely ancient and broke into life only when somebody took a pot shot at some birds, at which point there was almost a disaster.

Despite my expanded girth I am a walker. At one time I had a sylph-like shape that was maintained by walking. I have walked in Lancashire and Cheshire where I was brought up. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) may be interested to know that I have walked along the banks of the Goyt which is near his constituency. My mother was brought up in that area. I have walked in Anglesey in north Wales and more recently in Devon and Somerset. I wish to narrate an experience that I had about two years ago. One sunny summer afternoon, I was persuaded by my wife to take my children, who are fairly tiny, for a long walk while she did something useful ; she was either painting a room or doing some gardening, but she wanted the children out of the way. I followed the instructions on the Ordnance Survey map, on which a footpath was printed between two roads quite near my home and across quite a lot of scrub country. I decided to explore the footpath. We went down a track past a farm, where there was a fierce dog--I do not know whether it was a Rottweiler, but it certainly was fierce--and at the bottom of the hill the path disappeared and we got into considerable difficulty. We had to cross a barbed wire fence--the House can imagine the difficulties and dangers of crossing a barbed wire fence--and then we got into a bog. I do not know whether hon. Members have experience of navigating a marsh, but inevitably one's foot gets stuck. When one pulls one's foot out of one's wellington boots, the boot stays stuck and one's foot get all muddy. My children became a little perturbed because I gave voice to a few Anglo-Saxon epithets.

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That was all because in practice the pathway marked on the map did not exist. It had not been ploughed over, but it had been covered by natural vegetation. That is why I have a particular interest in the Bill progressing.

I am pleased that the Minister mentioned the positive and constructive attitude of the farming community. I was glad to receive a letter from the parliamentary adviser to the National Farmers Union. It says that the NFU has contributed throughout all the negotiations of the working party of the rights of way review committee. It was a member of that committee and it supports the Bill because :

"we believe that farmers and landowners will benefit from many of the Bill's provisions.

Although, at first appearance, the Bill places extra requirements on farmers in the restoration of cultivated parts, and maintenance of paths and ways free from growing crops, we do not believe that those farmers who presently uphold their responsibilities of keeping such paths open and convenient to public use have anything to fear from this Bill. Indeed, in respect of the cultivation of rights of way all farmers will benefit from the clarification of the present law which this Bill will make."

How often does legislation, particularly private Member's legislation, clarify the law when it is unclear? That is a welcome feature of the Bill. The letter states that the NFU believes that the application of the provisions of the Bill

"will reduce the conflicts between walkers, other path users, highway authorities, and farmers which have arisen because of inadequate restoration and difficulties of identifying the route of paths through growing crops. Such conflict often arises because all parties are uncertain about the extent of their responsibilities and the methods of adequately restoring and identifying the paths or ways across arable land."

I welcome the fact that the NFU recognises that the Bill, supported by a negotiated and flexible system of applying its provisions--my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden referred to that aspect--will benefit all parties. That is excellent.

I pay tribute to the work of other organisations, particularly the Countryside Commission. Hon. Members may have seen a document that it has produced entitled "Snakes and Ladders". It points out all the difficulties that can arise when one is walking, such as the absence or otherwise, of signposts, trying to cross not just the ordinary single strand of wire but the coiled bands of electrified wire, the disappearance of paths, the presence of gates that are falling down, so that one can neither open them nor get across them, as well as ordinary maintained gates. Horse riders are particularly affected by gates that are padlocked.

I pay tribute to the work of the Countryside Commission, and the survey that its volunteers did when they attempted to walk all the footpaths, or to ride and cycle all the bridleways in a number of randomly selected squares throughout the length and breadth of England and Wales--a total of almost 3,000 rights of way. They completed a report for each path, and gathered information. The leaflet that the Countryside Commission produced is based on that work. There were nearly 13,573 completed survey forms, and that was a great achievement.

I referred earlier to the various factors that posed difficulties in the NCC's analysis--ploughing, crops, natural vegetation, fences, hedges and walls, areas that are muddy, boggy or flooded and difficult gates. The report is very welcome.

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This morning I was pleased to receive a letter from the Central Council of Physical Recreation. Let us not underestimate the health aspect, as we hear a lot about that subject at the moment. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley) mentioned the Environmental Protection Bill, and I have been serving in the Committee on the National Health Service and Community Care Bill for the past few weeks. If we can facilitate more exercise in the countryside, how much will that do to minimise the ill-health and heart disease which plague so many people who have to pursue sedentary occupations in their professional lives?

The council gives wholehearted support to the Bill. It thinks that its measures will greatly benefit riders and walkers and says that no restrictions beyond those currently set out in the code of practice will be placed on farmers. In certain ways landowners and the natural landscape will benefit.

The council emphasises that the guidance in the Bill

"is particularly important in areas where the grubbing-up of hedges has removed the natural marker and a sharp turn in the path becomes almost impossible to spot."

If there had been time--I am sorry that there is not--I would have referred to the last report of the Nature Conservancy Council, the work it has done on sites of special scientific interest and elsewhere, and the reference it makes in that report to the Water Act 1989 and the various discussions that took place to ensure that the consumer--the walker or the person seeking leisure--was able to get access to water authority land.

Mr. Eddie Loyden (Liverpool, Garston) : Is the hon. Gentleman satisfied that those rights will be maintained when the privatisation of the land takes place under the new water authorities?

Mr. Nicholson : I confess that I did not serve on the Committee that considered the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) did, and if she catches your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, she may like to comment on that. We need to monitor that, and I see from the NCC's report that it has certain reservations about that aspect of water privatisation, although there has been progress.

One aspect of this subject links it to tourism. We increasingly find that people who live in the United Kingdom, instead of jetting-off to extremely hot and crowded Mediterranean resorts to take holidays, or going to the seaside, as was traditional, go to the British countryside.

I have here "The Caravanners Guide to South-West England", published by the Caravan Club, which was presented to me a few days ago at a reception in the House. It is a marvellous guide to people--particularly those with young children--whose idea of a holiday is to park the caravan on a plot where the planning arrangements permit and to walk in the surrounding area. On page 5 is an article by Keith Bungay, the national park officer for Exmoor. I was pleased to see that, because the plateau of Exmoor--perhaps the most attractive part--is in my constituency. The article describes the prehistoric remains, barrows, cairns and circules that can be seen there-- items which should be preserved, because they are of interest to walkers. Iron age forts of more recent vintage can also be seen, and the author adds that Exmoor is the land of the

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wild red deer. The guide contains some splendid descriptions of Exmoor walks, such as the Lorna Doone walk.

I have reservations about the Bill, although I do not share the ideological resistance expressed by Opposition Members. Like the hon. Members for Stoke -on-Trent, North and for Denton and Reddish--and, in a brief intervention at the beginning of the debate, the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith)--I am a bit worried about resources. Although I appreciate that each highway authority will be asked to provide a fairly modest sum, I am afraid that the community charge will pose a problem. In many areas it will be much higher than the Department of the Environment predicted, often because of overspending by Labour authorities, but partly because of next year's grant settlement. I am glad that the Minister is present to hear me make that point ; I made a similar point in a debate two weeks ago. I fear that valuable aspects of the work of local authority highways departments will be sacrificed.

Ms. Walley : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Nicholson : No, there is not enough time.

This problem will be the "delenda est Carthago" theme of my speeches this year, for it is a source of great concern to many of my constituents. In the meantime, I have the greatest pleasure in congratulating my hon. Friend and supporting his Bill.

1.7 pm

Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West) : It is a great pleasure for me to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), who illustrated very clearly some of the pitfalls for ramblers and walkers, and also some of the advantages that the Bill will bring to farmers and landowners. Clearly defined rights of way would prevent people from getting lost and trespassing.

I am privileged to be a sponsor of the Bill, which was admirably introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh). He is certain to win golden opinions, both in his constituency and elsewhere. He is also a brave man, for during the next few weeks he will probably meet his predecessor, who was a very fine Member of Parliament. I was trying to decide this morning what kind of Bill he would have introduced had he come fifth or sixth in the ballot. He might have introduced a Bill to prevent such people as the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) from visiting the countryside, or a Bill to make foxhunting compulsory ; he might even have introduced a Bill to close all rights of way. The question is probably academic, however, for he would not have been here on a Friday in any case : he would be doing something more constructive. As the owner of land in Norfolk with rights of way going through it, I must declare not only a personal but a major constituency interest. Pressure on the countryside is on the increase in Norfolk. Norfolk's population is increasing. The roads are being improved. More and more people want to come to one of the most beautiful parts of the countryside and enjoy it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle referred to the growth in leisure activities. Walking in the countryside is one of the most popular pastimes. It is important that leisure activities should be reconciled with the interests of the farming and land

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owning community. The land-owning community is beginning to feel isolated. Farming is having a difficult time. Farmers' incomes have fallen sharply. Nothing will do more to encourage that sense of isolation than antagonism building up between the farming community and those who want to exercise their right to enjoy the countryside. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle eruditely documented the network of rights of way. The majority of farmers respect right of way and behave properly, but a minority do not ; they abuse and neglect their duties. They have given the rest of the farming community a very bad name.

Above all, the law needs to be clarified. In counties such as Norfolk, 60 per cent. of the rights of way network could be open ; the other 40 per cent. might not be. If 5 per cent. of the network is not open, that may be enough to ruin a walk. That point was made very well by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish. If one small link in a walk is unavailable, it can completely ruin one's enjoyment of it. It may be just one farmer who is causing the trouble. I was prepared to be a sponsor of the Bill because it was the result of a great deal of discussion, negotiation and debate and represents a compromise. Above all, it has been endorsed by all the key interests, parties and organisations. I join my hon. Friends in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mr. Haselhurst), who has done so much work on the subject.

If the Bill is passed, as I hope it will be, the law relating to ploughing will be clarified. Until now the statute law has been uncertain. We relied in most cases on common law. That was most unsatisfactory. Farmers will know exactly where they stand. If I am fortunate enough to serve on the Committee, I shall refer to various rights of way that are little used. Certainly farmers may object to the Bill. There are certain rights of way in my constituency that have not been used for 15 or 20 years. However, there may be a right of way nearby that is used. A diversion of the existing right of way may represent a far better route across that section of the countryside.

If the Bill is passed, it will create a far greater sense of trust and co- operation. When the closure of some rights of way that are never or are rarely used is proposed, the climate for negotiation will be much better. The Bill represents a move in the right direction. I referred earlier to the fact that farmers and landowners will benefit from the Bill. They will have to give up certain rights, but in return they will know exactly where they stand. Their rights and duties will be laid down in black and white.

Apart from a better climate of co-operation, we should also avoid the instances that were documented by my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton. He referred to people going on a walk where the route peters out because of an impenetrable jungle of undergrowth, or fields of growing corn. Then they wander off in all directions. That may well lead to gates being left open, damage to stock and disturbance of nesting birds. Such activities can lead to antagonism between farmers and the rambling public. On the other hand, if rights of way are properly marked and maintained, people will know where they stand. We will then move into a new era and a climate of trust and co- operation.

Clause 4(5) provides great advantage to farmers who wish to carry out major draining or engineering works.

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Until now that matter has been unclear, but now they will know their rights, will carry out the work and will restore the right of way.

Action must be taken about the minority of scrambler bike riders and four- wheel-drive vehicle users who abuse tracks across the countryside. I have heard about a number of examples of tracks being badly damaged by people who consistently drive up and down them in four-wheel-drive vehicles. In a number of cases in Norfolk and Hampshire, councils have opened up tracks, which presumably were previously bridleways, for the use of such vehicles. Action should be taken to prevent that from happening. We do not want more vehicles using tracks. Obviously vehicles are allowed to use some tracks, but those activities could lead to antagonism between the public and farmers and between people who engage in such activities and ramblers and horse riders who enjoy the countryside in a civilised way. I must make it clear to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle that I entirely support the right of a local authority to bring prosecutions, but if there is any attempt in Committee to extend that right of prosecution to members of the general public, I shall go flat out to resist it. Although the vast majority of people who walk in and enjoy the countryside will not store up trouble or do anything that is likely to lead to conflict, there will always be a minority who may do that. A general right of prosecution for the public would be dangerous, and if there are any attempts to introduce such a right I shall forcefully resist them.

Given that the Environmental Protection Bill is going through the House at the moment, we ought to consider the situation regarding landfill sites. I should declare an interest as an occasional adviser to the National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors, which represents the waste disposal industry. Many people in the industry are concerned about rights of way across landfill sites. We have had some ridiculous examples recently of local bodies and organisations pressing hard for rights of way through landfill sites to be maintained and kept open. Obviously there are problems of scavengers and people coming into close contact with heavy working machinery on landfill sites. Anyone who wants to walk on a landfill site must need his brains tested, but there have been attempts to keep open rights of way over landfill sites in some parts of the country. The obvious solution is to apply for a diversion.

Ms. Walley : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Bellingham : I shall not give way as I want to be brief. We can discuss the matter afterwards, perhaps in Committee.

If the Bill results in a better climate and more trust and confidence between the rambling organisations and the farmers and others with interests in the countryside, diversions will be agreed more readily because there has been ludicrous opposition to diversions of rights of way across landfill sites. We cannot tolerate that, and I hope that a much more constructive attitude will develop among a very small minority.

I support the Bill. It is a historic step forward from the days when there was antagonism, conflict and lack of trust to an era when there is greater use of the countryside, with

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people coming from the towns, living in the villages and making use of their right to walk in the countryside. We shall move forward if their rights can be reconciled with those of landowners and farmers. It is important that the people who walk or ride in or otherwise enjoy the countryside understand what makes it tick and exactly why farmers want to enjoy their land in particular ways--for field sports and other sports and amenities. If people who go into the countryside understand why farmers enjoy those pursuits, there will be less antagonism in some circles towards them. We are certainly moving in the right direction.

I hope that the Bill will leave the Committee stage a far better Bill, perhaps with one or two minor improvements. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle quoted Tennyson. I should like to conclude by quoting Blake, who, in his "Auguries of Innocence", said :

"To see a world in a grain of sand

And a heaven in a wild flower,

Hold infinity in the palm of your hand

And eternity in an hour.

A robin redbreast in a cage

Puts all Heaven in a rage,

A dove-house filled with doves and pigeons

Shudders Hell through all its regions.

A dog starved at his master's gate

Predicts the ruin of the state."

I am sure that my hon. Friend's predecessor would approve of the last verse :

"A horse misused upon the road

Calls to Heaven for human blood.

1.21 pm

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