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House of Commons
Thursday 1 March 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Birmingham City Council
(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [26 February], That the Bill be now considered.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 8 March.
Midland Metro Bill
(By Order)
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Monday 5 March at Seven o'clock.
Adelphi Estate Bill
(By Order)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [27 February], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 8 March.
Mr. Speaker : As the remaining 14 Bills set down for Second Reading have blocking motions, with the leave of the House I will deal with them as a single group.
Vale of Glamorgan (Barry Harbour) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Exmouth Docks Bill
(By Order)
Hythe, Kent, Marina Bill
(By Order)
London Docklands Railway Bill
(By Order)
London Underground (Victoria) Bill
(By Order)
Penzance South Pier Extension Bill
(By Order)
Shard Bridge Bill
(By Order)
Tees and Hartlepool Port Authority Bill
(By Order)
London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill
(By Order)
London Underground Bill
(By Order)
Cattewater Reclamation Bill
(By Order)
Humberside County Council Bill
(By Order)
Clyde Port Authority Bill
(By Order)
London Local Authority (No. 2) Bill
[Lords] (By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 8 March.
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Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Kincora Boys' Home
1. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will list the responsibilities of his Department in relation to the circumstances surrounding allegations concerning the Kincora boys' home.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Cope) : The Department of Health and Social Services for Northern Ireland has the general duty to secure the provision of personal social services in Northern Ireland, including the provision of homes for children. The majority of, but not all, the statutory functions connected with this general duty are delegated by the Department to area health and social services boards.
Mr. Dalyell : May I ask the Minister a question of which I have given him notice? On what date did the Northern Ireland Office first learn that the RUC, the Belfast social services department or the British Army in Lisburn were aware of alleged irregularities at the Kincora boys' home?
Mr Cope : I am grateful for the notice that the hon. Gentleman gave my office before lunch. Allegations of criminal homosexual activity at Kincora became known to the Northern Ireland Office on 24 January 1980 as a result of the article in the Irish Independent newspaper.
Rev. Martin Smyth : Has the Minister been made aware of the claim by Mr. Justice Hughes that not all the papers concerning Kincora were made available to him? What did those papers say, and what does the Minister have to say about it?
Mr. Cope : I am not aware of Mr. Justice Hughes having made that claim or of any papers not having been made available to him for which he asked or which he thought were relevant.
Mr. McNamara : The Minister of State will be aware of allegations that the Army informed the RUC of what was going on at the Kincora boys' home before the date that he has just given the House. Will he check those allegations? When may I expect a letter from the Secretary of State in reply to my point about forensic evidence to which he referred at the previous Question Time?
Mr. Cope : I shall certainly consider what the hon. Gentleman said in the first part of his question, although it does not change what I said in answer to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell). The letter from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been signed and, as far as I know, is on its way to the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that he will receive it today or tomorrow.
Security
2. Mr. William Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security position in Northern Ireland.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Brooke) : I am pleased to say that since I answered a similar question on 1 February, there have been no deaths in
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Northern Ireland arising from incidents directly related to terrorism. In 1989, more than 430 people were charged with serious terrorist offences in Northern Ireland and large quantities of lethal weapons, ammunition and explosives were recovered, in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland. That trend has continued so far in 1990.Mr. Ross : Is not the Secretary of State deeply concerned that the IRA has the capacity to impose its will on contractors not to carry out work for the security forces and on suppliers not to supply material that could be used in carrying out work for the security forces in Northern Ireland? That prevails especially in parts of my constituency, in south Londonderry and in Mid-Ulster. What effective steps will the Secretary of State take to resolve the problem so that people may go to work without fear and--
Mr. Speaker : Order. One question please.
Mr. Ross : The position is a sad but true reflection on the present security policy.
Mr. Brooke : I share the hon. Gentleman's concern about the IRA's threats against contractors. I pay tribute to the courage of the contractors and those who work for them, and I am delighted that the Government's building programme manages to continue despite those threats.
Mr. Kilfedder : Is the Secretary of State aware that a concerted campaign is being waged by the IRA and IRA sympathisers to discredit the Ulster Defence Regiment, many of whose members have given their lives gallantly in the fight against terrorism? Will he assure the House that he will not allow the IRA to win this propaganda battle?
Mr. Brooke : I understand the hon. Gentleman's comments. The Government continue to place great confidence in the services of the UDR. The hon. Gentleman is right that it would be wholly wrong for IRA propaganda to be effective against the UDR, and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State and I confirm our support.
Mr. Mallon : Does the Secretary of State share my concern about the fact that, on "Panorama", the commander of the UDR, Brigadier Ritchie, said that UDR patrols were not briefed about Loyalist paramilitaries, but only about Republican paramilitaries? What discussions has he had since with the Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and with Army authorities to ensure that the UDR will be able to enforce the law impartially in all areas where it operates?
Mr. Brooke : In the "Panorama" programme, Brigadier Ritchie said that the UDR was not routinely tasked in the context of Loyalist paramilitaries. I was asked questions about that which were not recorded in the programme. My answer, in what I describe as the invisible part of the programme, was that the RUC tasks the Army and the UDR in actions on patrol and against the terrorist threat.
Inward Investment
3. Mr. Patrick Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on his plans to attract inward investment.
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Richard Needham) : I look forward to an increasing trend in inward investment in the early 1990s.
Mr. Thompson : Will my hon. Friend confirm that private sector involvement in the economy of Northern Ireland is on the increase? Will he give details of new jobs created as a result of inward investment and give us an idea of the countries from which that investment is likely to come in the future?
Mr. Needham : Everyone in Northern Ireland will agree that there has been an immense upsurge in confidence in the private sector in Northern Ireland. Over the past eight years, the economy of Northern Ireland-- probably for the first time this century--has been growing faster than that of the rest of the United Kingdom. In 1989, for example, 4,017 jobs were created through investment of £263 million. There is every reason to expect that that trend will continue in the early 1990s. To give my hon. Friend an example, we believe that the numbers employed in computer software will increase from 900 now to 4,500 by 1995. If the policies of this Government remain, I am sure that the private sector will continue to improve.
Mr. Beggs : We welcome the Minister's enthusiasm in his efforts to attract inward investment to Northern Ireland. Will he assure potential investors that the thousands in my constituency who are unemployed as a result of the closure of the synthetic fibre industry and of Carreras Rothman, and who face the pending redundancies at GEC-Alsthom would be happy to welcome any overseas company, whether British, European, Japanese, American or any other? Will he assure the House that the Industrial Development Board and the Northern Ireland Office will not unduly influence the choice of location by those investors?
Mr. Needham : The Government will always try to encourage companies to go where there are major problems of unemployment. The hon. Gentleman's constituency has had considerable encouragement and it will not be long before it will receive even more. The real question is whether we can continue to attract large inward investment into the Province. Looking at the potential over the next few months, I am sure that investment will be better than it has ever been.
Mr. John Marshall rose--
Mr. Speaker : No, not that Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Jim Marshall : Perhaps that was a demonstration of job creation in the House as well as in the Province.
Does the Minister accept that we all want increased private investment in the north of Ireland to provide more jobs? But has he had time to read the recent report of the Northern Ireland Economic Council, which paints a damning picture of the record of the Industrial Development Board, especially on inward American investment? The Minister will know that the report says that it costs £30,000 to create one job in an American firm in the north of Ireland, which is an appalling figure.
Does the Minister accept the conclusion of the council's report that what is required is a thorough examination of the Industrial Development Board's policy towards
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inward American investment and an appraisal of the performance of American firms in the Province which, in the main, is well below average?Mr. Needham : I refute the hon. Gentleman's comments in the latter part of his question. It is not true that the 9,500 people employed in American-owned companies in Northern Ireland work at a lower level of productivity or quality than people in other companies--
Mr. Jim Marshall : Read the report.
Mr. Needham : I have read the report carefully, and the hon. Gentleman should do the same. The work done by United States companies in Northern Ireland is of a high quality and level of productivity.
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the amount of inward investment from the United States is disappointing, but it is starting to increase and in the not too distant future we hope to be able to make major announcements of further increases.
Mr. John Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that inward investment in Northern Ireland will take place only so long as internationally mobile companies wish to locate in the United Kingdom? Does he agree that the adoption of the social charter, with the return of high inflation, would make that a much less likely prospect?
Religious Tolerance
4. Mr. Allen : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps he is taking to encourage religious toleration in Northern Ireland.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr. Brian Mawhinney) : Steps have been and are being taken to improve relations between the two sides of the community in Northern Ireland. These include measures directed at increasing contact and co-operation across the community ; increasing greater mutual respect and understanding ; and ensuring the existence of equality of opportunity and equity of treatment.
Mr. Allen : I know that the Minister agrees that one of the main ways in which to combat religious bigotry is to ensure that it does not get a grip in schools. I thank him for the work that he and his colleagues have done in this matter. Is he aware of the problems being encountered by integrated schools? Can he assure the House that sufficient money will be allocated to the programme to ensure that it is fulfilled? Will he take time to look at yesterday's Belfast Telegraph, which highlighted some of the problems, and to write to me with his views on how to counter them?
Dr. Mawhinney : I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his consistent support for measures taken in Northern Ireland to try to reduce community division. I am aware that one or two of the integrated schools are having difficulty financing the borrowing that they made before they were given maintained status. I shall certainly look at the article to which the hon. Gentleman referred and write to him.
Mr. Andrew MacKay : Is my hon. Friend aware that Conservative Members strongly support integrated
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schools in the Province and that we are delighted with the measures that he has brought forward to ensure that they prosper?Dr. Mawhinney : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his kind words. Since we last discussed the matter the Education Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 has become law and, for the first time, parents have a third schooling option--integrated education--available to them.
Mr. A. Cecil Walker : As the question is one of religion, not of culture or nationality, which can also pose problems, does the Minister agree that tolerance can come about only if there is a clear understanding of how to teach the principles of the various denominations in Northern Ireland? Will he ensure that those who teach children about religion are fully qualified in matters concerning theological inspiration?
Dr. Mawhinney : I share with the hon. Gentleman the understanding that at the heart of the Christian gospel is an emphasis on tolerance. By way of encouragement, I remind him that under the new education reform legislation, for the first time school boards of governors can bring inspectors into schools to inspect the teaching of religious education. That is a major step forward and I hope that he will welcome it.
Security Forces
5. Mr. Loyden : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what measures he is taking to improve public confidence in the security forces.
7. Mr. Ernie Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what initiatives he has authorised to improve public confidence in the security forces.
Mr. Cope : The police and the Army need the support of all sides of the community to be fully effective. The Government, the Chief Constable and the GOC therefore continue to attach the greatest importance to the maintenance and improvement of confidence in the security forces by all appropriate means.
Mr. Loyden : Can the Minister say whether Brian Nelson, who is helping in the Stevens inquiry, had any connection with the security forces before his arrest?
Mr. Cope : Not without notice, but the inquiry is progressing ; it is extremely thorough and is looking into all the matters that it has been asked to consider.
Mr. Ross : Now that we know that the screening of members recruited into the UDR has been unsatisfactory, does the Minister accept the suggestion of Sir John Hermon that screening should be done by the RUC?
Mr. Cope : The RUC plays a considerable advisory role in such screening for the UDR and others. But in the end the decision about who joins the British Army must be a matter for the British Army.
Sir Michael McNair-Wilson : May I press my right hon. Friend on this? The "Panorama" programme made serious allegations against the UDR suggesting that it was biased in favour of the Protestant community. One point that it brought out was whether the RUC is always consulted in the vetting procedure. Will he give the House an assurance
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that the vetting procedure is now conducted in consultation with the RUC and that no one is allowed to join the regiment without its approval?Mr. Cope : Yes. I thought that the "Panorama" programme was unbalanced in that it did not look at the entire record of the UDR. I assure my hon. Friend that the RUC is involved in vetting in every case. But the final decision on who joins the British Army must be a matter for the Army.
Mr. Barry Field : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to restore and keep public confidence is for Members of Parliament not to make ludicrous statements about the actions of members of the security forces? It was unbelievable that a soldier was accused of planting an explosive device on a British Army lorry. It was an extraordinary and outrageous suggestion.
Mr. Cope : Those who jump to conclusions immediately after an incident make a great error and can contribute greatly to the lowering of confidence.
Mr. Molyneaux : When the Minister and the Secretary of State receive a copy of the Stevens report, will they publish it in the context of a Command Paper, setting out the number of persons arrested for questioning, the number of cases referred to the Director of Public Prosecutions and the number of persons against whom terrorist-related charges have been authorised by the DPP? Subsequently will they publish another report giving in full the number of convictions obtained in those cases?
Mr. Cope : The Stevens inquiry will report to the Chief Constable of the RUC. As such, it would not be normal to publish it. Nevertheless, I am sure that the details for which the right hon. Gentleman asked will be forthcoming.
Mr. McNamara : Does the Minister accept that the Stevens inquiry is a matter not merely of supplying information to the DPP but of gaining confidence in the security forces among all communities in Northern Ireland? Therefore, it would be advantageous for the Government to find at least part of the report that they could release to the public.
The Secretary of State said that the RUC tasks all patrols. Did the RUC task the patrol that shot the two or three men outside the bookmaker's shop in Belfast? Why can we still not have the figures for the number of patrols accompanied by the RUC? As it is only a simple logging procedure and the Government inform us that the RUC tasks all UDR patrols, why cannot we have the figures?
Mr. Cope : The Stevens inquiry will report to the Chief Constable. I have no doubt that the report will contain some information that it would not be desirable to publish, but which is for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Chief Constable to consider. We have undertaken to consider those matters arising from the report that affect ourselves in the Northern Ireland Office. Although it is not a document for publication, I take the hon. Gentleman's points. The shooting in the Whiterock road and Falls road area is currently under investigation, so I do not wish to add anything on that subject. On the hon. Gentleman's point about accompaniment, it remains the policy of the
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Government, the Army and the police to ensure that wherever possible patrols are accompanied to the maximum.Political Structures
6. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to develop further democratic structures in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Brooke : Plans for new political structures in Northern Ireland, if they are to work, need to be devised and implemented in consultation with the elected representatives who would participate in them. I should welcome talks between the political parties about these matters.
Mrs. Gorman : I thank my right hon. Friend for his comments. Now that the Conservative party is properly constituted in Northern Ireland, with over one third of all constituencies having associations up and running and with the selection of the first two parliamentary candidates under way, will my right hon. Friend confirm that in future discussions on democratic structures in Northern Ireland, local Conservatives will be represented and that if the leaders of parties in Northern Ireland are involved, our own Conservative leader will be involved, too?
Mr. Brooke : I hesitate to advise as experienced a parliamentarian as my hon. Friend, but the candidates who have been adopted are prospective parliamentary candidates. On the second part of her question, the Conservative associations in Northern Ireland have suggested that if I consult the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland, I should be consulting my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and I can be assumed to know her views.
Mr. Harry Barnes : Might not the key to devolved government in Northern Ireland be for the Government to introduce a Bill of Rights to protect minorities, be they Protestant minorities in Catholic areas or Catholic minorities in Protestant areas?
Mr. Brooke : It would be an unusual constitutional development to introduce a Bill of Rights for only one part of the United Kingdom. However, the Government do not rule out discussion of that in the later stages of such conversations.
Drainage Schemes
9. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what reassessments are being made of major drainage schemes ; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Bottomley) : Major drainage scheme proposals are subject to reassessment at various stages in their development to validate economic worth and to take note of their impact on the environment.
Mr. Bruce : In view of the great problems of flooding and with sea defences in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom, would my hon. Friend welcome, on behalf of the Province, a United Kingdomwide body to look after all our sea defences and flood relief schemes and
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ensure that money was spent in the most cost -effective way to solve the problems of people being flooded out of their homes?Mr. Bottomley : We all need to learn the lessons of where sea defences are not fully protecting people and farming. I am delighted that Department of Agriculture drainage staff in Northern Ireland have managed to stop the threats to the Myroe embankment. It would have caused great chaos if it had been breached, although it is regrettable that the nearby burn flooded. I pay tribute to the staff who have been working for four or five days in near-freezing conditions. I am sure that they take it amiss if the odd journalist watches that work on television, with his or her feet up by the fire, and criticises their work.
Mr. McGrady : Will the Minister confirm that, after the meeting on 28 November between officials of the drainage division and the planning department, he is actively considering the alternative drainage scheme to that at Altnadua, Castlewellan, and giving priority to the development and planning for the Newcastle area in general? When will the results of those discussions and negotiations be known?
Mr. Bottomley : I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman's question and others when we have further announcements to make. I can now say that we assess schemes even more effectively than in the past, and we want to ensure that we get the right balance between the interests of farmers, wildlife and the environment. People will appreciate the further improvements in schemes when they go ahead. Some suggested improvements may not meet the economic criteria, so that the environmental or green tinge does not need to be considered. If those improvements meet the economic criteria, that will be the time to ask whether they have an acceptable impact on the environment and wildlife.
Mr. Clifford Forsythe : Is the Minister aware that the drainage division attempted to carry out work on the beds of the Maine and Kellswater rivers during the recent fish-spawning season? Will he instruct the department's officers that that should not be done in the future? Will the Minister take urgent action to bring together under one officer all the departments concerned with drainage, including those involved with land, road, agricultural and river drainage, so that he can co-ordinate the drainage operations?
Mr. Bottomley : It would not be right to have one officer, but it is right to recognise that my right hon. Friend has appointed the same junior Minister to look after both the agriculture and environment sectors, and we should be able to see some benefits from that. However, it will not be perfect and there will still be issues to argue out.
Badgers
10. Mr. Beggs : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether any evidence exists of tuberculosis in badgers in Northern Ireland ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Peter Bottomley : The Department of Agriculture has been monitoring badgers for the presence of bovine tuberculosis over many years and has carried out a number
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of field studies. Present evidence does not suggest that badgers represent a significant health risk to cattle in Northern Ireland.Mr. Beggs : I thank the Minister for his reply. He must be aware by now of the excellent health record of Northern Ireland livestock and the good work that has been done to eradicate both brucellosis and tuberculosis from our cattle herds. Nevertheless, is not he concerned, as are many farmers who have clear herds, and have had clean herds for many years, who suddenly find an outbreak of TB with no identifiable source that can be connected with their farming operations? Will he undertake to seek the co- operation of the Department of the Environment and district councils to ensure that all badgers that are killed on our roads can be collected, taken to the Department's veterinary research laboratories and tested to eliminate the fear and establish any influence that badgers may have on the spread of TB? Will he ensure that all imported cattle from the Irish Republic are properly tested before they come into Northern Ireland and are also tested on Northern Ireland farms?
Mr. Bottomley : We need to make sure, both north and south of the border, that TB is eliminated. There was a recent brucellosis outbreak which was, I think, tracked down and eliminated. Fewer than one in 50 of the TB outbreaks could possibly be attributed to badgers. It would be totally wrong to try to eradicate badgers in Northern Ireland, when 49 out of 50 of the TB outbreaks have other causes.
By the time badgers become a significant issue, I hope that we shall have found some way of dealing with it other than eradication.
Mr. Mallon : Does the Minister agree that it would be an evasion of the truth if we were to blame the poor badger, which cannot answer back, for a problem that exists for many other reasons? I am sure that he is aware of the high incidence of bovine tuberculosis in the Newry and Armagh constituency. Will he tell the House when he will take steps to ensure that 100 per cent. compensation is given for herds with bovine tuberculosis with the same speed as 100 per cent. compensation was given for cattle with mad cow disease in Britain?
Mr. Bottomley : Let us be absolutely clear that the incidence of BSE is dramatically lower in Northern Ireland than in other parts of the United Kingdom. We shall try to keep it that way as far as we possibly can.
Were we to have gone for 100 per cent. compensation on all animal illnesses, I fear that we would not have introduced compensation in the first place for any, so we must be careful about rolling it forward into every area. The main associations with tuberculosis are markets and nosing across boundary fences. Those areas are more important than eradicating brocks.
Stevens Inquiry
11. Rev. Martin Smyth : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he has raised in the Anglo-Irish Conference the allegations made in the Dail by a Cabinet Minister that the fire in the offices of the Stevens inquiry was deliberate.
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