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Nellist, Dave

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Prescott, John

Ruddock, Joan

Skinner, Dennis

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Alan Meale and

Mr. Harry Barnes.

Question accordingly agreed to .

Bill read a Second time and committed .

Mr. Bell : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not want to challenge your ruling in any way, but would it be in order if, through you, I put it on the record, for the information of the Secretary of State for Transport, that I shall be calling for a formal Department of Trade and Industry investigation into the affairs of the Tees and Hartlepool port authority and into the financial shenanigans that I have revealed tonight on the Floor of the House?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is not a point of order for the Chair, but the hon. Gentleman has put his point on the record.

Mr. Harry Barnes : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. According to page 366 of "Erskine May", relating to an hon. Member raising a point of order during a Division, only when a question of order arises during a Division may a Member speak seated and covered. That implies that there is a procedure for raising a point of order during a Division and, like many other hon. Members, I have used that procedure in the past.

My point of order is whether I should have been prevented from raising a point of order during the Division. This relates to the point of order that has just been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell). I had been attempting to raise another point of order, which it is now too late to raise, about the nature of the Division that was then taking place, given the statement made by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough, which I feel should lead to a Department of Trade and Industry inquiry, and affects our procedure in relation to this legislation.

Although I feel aggrieved about it, I accept that that has now passed. My point of order relates to whether, by that precedent, hon. Members will be refused the right to raise points of order during a Division.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : No new precedent has been created. This matter is at the discretion of the Chair. Depending on the circumstances, it is usual for the Chair

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to take a point of order during a Division if it relates directly to the conduct of the Division, such as whether the Division bells are ringing.

I am sure that, from the point of view of common sense, the whole House will appreciate--the hon. Gentleman himself made this point--that, when a Division is taking place and hon. Members are going through the Division Lobbies, it is exceedingly difficult in practical terms for the Chair or anyone else in the House to hear what is being said by the hon. Member who is raising the point of order.

From the points that the hon. Gentleman raised during the first Division, it is clear that he was not making a point of order relating to the Division. It is sensible and practicable in those circumstances for the Chair to use its discretion in this way--[ Hon. Members-- : "No."]-- and to take points of order after the Division when they can be properly heard and properly dealt with--

Mr. Dave Nellist (Coventry, South-East) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is clearly within your recollection--this has happened during the seven years that I have been a Member of the House--that there have been many occasions when the Chair has accepted points of order during a Division--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order.

Mr. Nellist : I have not made the point of order yet.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. It is clear that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to question the judgment of the Chair. I am sure that he does not intend to do that. We now come--

Mr. Nellist : On a different point of order--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order.

Mr. Nellist rose --

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We now come--

Mr. Nellist : It is a different point of order--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : If it is a different point of order, I shall hear the hon. Gentleman, but it must be a different point of order.

Mr. Nellist : It is a totally different point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can you explain to me under which Standing Order the occupant of the Chair can decide whether or not a point of order is valid if the case has not even been made?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : I have already dealt with that point of order, and there is nothing that I can add.

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Estimates

Mr. Deputy Speaker -- proceeded to put forthwith the Questions which he was directed to put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 53 (Questions on voting of estimates, &c.), and the Order [12 March], as modified by the Order yesterday.

ESTIMATES, 1989-90 (AIR) VOTE A

Motion made, and Question put.

That during the year ending on 31st March 1990 an additional number not exceeding 3,800 all ranks be maintained for the Royal Air Force Reserve-- [Mr. Fallon.]

The House divided : Ayes 90, Noes 3.

Division No. 134] [11.10 pm

AYES

Alexander, Richard

Alison, Rt Hon Michael

Amess, David

Amos, Alan

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Baldry, Tony

Barron, Kevin

Beith, A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)

Boswell, Tim

Bowis, John

Brazier, Julian

Bright, Graham

Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)

Buck, Sir Antony

Burns, Simon

Burt, Alistair

Butterfill, John

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Carrington, Matthew

Carttiss, Michael

Cash, William

Channon, Rt Hon Paul

Chapman, Sydney

Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Devlin, Tim

Dixon, Don

Durant, Tony

Emery, Sir Peter

Fallon, Michael

Fenner, Dame Peggy

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fisher, Mark

Gale, Roger

Gill, Christopher

Glyn, Dr Sir Alan

Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hague, William

Hargreaves, Ken (Hyndburn)

Harris, David

Haynes, Frank

Heathcoat-Amory, David

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Knapman, Roger

Lamond, James

Leadbitter, Ted

Lilley, Peter

Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

Maclean, David

McLoughlin, Patrick

Mans, Keith

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick

Meale, Alan

Mills, Iain

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Neubert, Michael

Norris, Steve

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Renton, Rt Hon Tim

Riddick, Graham

Ryder, Richard

Sackville, Hon Tom

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Stevens, Lewis

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Summerson, Hugo

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Trotter, Neville

Waller, Gary

Widdecombe, Ann

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. David Lightbown, and

Mr. Irvine Patnick.

NOES

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

Nellist, Dave

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Dennis Skinner and

Mr. Ronnie Campbell.

Question accordingly agreed to.

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