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Mr. Donald Thompson (Calder Valley) : Is that more or fewer applications than for housing benefit?

Mr. Fearn : More.

Sefton council received 3,500 Government-sponsored newspaper coupons, which proved to be almost useless because they made no distinction between rented and owner-occupied accommodation. Those coupons have been returned for people to explain the information that they put on them. That is a further example of ratepayers' money being wasted. I find it hard to comprehend, given those figures for a not unusual local area, that the Government could possibly have accounted for all administration costs. I am certain that they have not considered the hardships of many people, who will suffer from the inevitable delay in the production of forms.

The poll tax is unfair, unworkable and expensive to run. The poll tax, not the statutory instruments that we are discussing, should be revoked.

11.40 pm

Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West) : When the debate began, the hon. Member for Dagenham (Mr. Gould) sought to suggest that the transitional relief announced by my hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities at the Conservative party conference was different from the scheme now before us. As he sought to explain his remarks, and after the reply from the Minister, it became abundantly clear that the comments of the hon. Member for Dagenham were in line with most comments that we have heard from Labour Members : they simply were not based on facts. Labour Members were trying once again to mislead the public that the scheme is other than what it is. It is disgraceful for them to pretend that people are being denied relief when it was never offered.

Is it reasonable that the transitional relief scheme should be available for use by any Labour council that wants to set an excessive community charge, irrespective of the needs of the borough? I say that for a particular reason. Despite the humbug that we have heard from Labour Members, we have never heard, in this debate or in others on the rating system, any suggestion that transitional relief would be available for people who have suffered enormous rates increases at the hands of Labour councils. What about Labour councils that year after year caused misery to thousands of people by increasing rates in excess of inflation?

Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill) : Will the hon. Gentleman consider the case of a pensioner couple in my constituency who before the poll tax paid £84.20 in rent and rates but this year will have to pay £91.24? Does he agree that that is £7.04 more a month, not £3? Does he expect his constituents to be equally worse off, or will this be another example of people in England being better off?

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Mr. Hughes : I shall be happy to consider that matter provided that the hon. Lady will consider all those people in the London borough of Ealing who, last year, had rate increases of more than 50 per cent., all those older people who were denied money for food and heating because they had to pay excessive bills to a Labour council. It is that sort of point, coming from Labour Members, which does the Labour party no credit because Labour Members shed crocodile tears when it is they who take money from people's pockets to pay for excessive spending. I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Greenway), who can explain some of those matters.

Mr. Harry Greenway (Ealing, North) : I can explain the suffering of some of my constituents. The constituents of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe) do not know they are born. If they lived in Ealing they would suffer. In Ealing, we have had a rate--a local tax--increase of 264 per cent. in four years, when inflation was only about 20 per cent. What about that for Labour wickedness?

Mr. Hughes : My hon. Friend's intervention points up my case. Mr. Nellist rose--

Mr. Hughes : I shall not give way to scabs who make other people pay for their community charge.

Madam Deputy Speaker (Miss Betty Boothroyd) : I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will want to withdraw that remark.

Mr. Hughes : If you, Madam Deputy Speaker, advise me that the remark is unparliamentary, of course, I withdraw it, but it is no worse than anything that anyone who is going to be--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. It is a most objectionable word, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his courtesy.

Mr. Hughes : What the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist) is doing to those people who will have to pay for the services that he enjoys on his high salary simply defies description. What makes it worse is that anyone who follows his lead and does not pay the community charge will be dragged through the courts. He can sit behind his privilege as a Member of Parliament and not be dragged through the courts ; he is making people do things that he will not have to do.

Mr. Nellist rose --

Mr. Hughes : I have already told the hon. Member that I will not give way to him.

The transitional scheme is generous and will come to the aid of those people who have to pay more money as a direct result of the new scheme of local taxation. That is what it is designed to do and what the Government promised it would do. If the Labour party wants to talk about councils which charge a high community charge, it must come up with the explanation of why people have to pay more money. It is no good the Labour party criticising, when it refuses not only to come up with a scheme of its own, but to come up with the answers to any of the questions posed by Conservative Members. Labour

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Members may want to act like deaf mutes, but in the end they will not get away with that, because the electorate will rumble them. 11.47 pm

Mr. Barry Jones (Alyn and Deeside) : The Council of Welsh Districts proposed transitional relief as a less administratively complicated system than that for England. However, since the Welsh Office revealed the final details, the Council of Welsh Districts, the architect of the transitional relief scheme, has expressed deep concern that the Welsh Office has not gone far enough, either in the period of relief--three years, not five--or in the extent of the relief.

Many Welsh communities will not receive transitional relief--541, nearly seven out of 10, will not. Only 323 will receive transitional relief. There are anomalies in the system. Due to the way that community boundaries are drawn, people living on opposite sides of the road, using the same services, may receive different levels of relief. For example, residents in part of Trehafod in the Rhondda will receive £41 relief, but their neighbours whose homes are in Taff-Ely will receive no help. Similarly in north Wales, residents in Llanfynydd in Alyn and Deeside will receive no transitional relief while their neighbours in Brymbo in Wrexham Maelor will receive £8 relief.

With regard to anomalies, the professionals in local government finance in Wales believe that the Government are less than competent in deciding what area should have relief. The anomalies set area against area and it is clear that the Government have not done their homework. The arbitrary use of areas means that thousands of people are losing.

The average community charge in Wales will be £232, which is almost £60--or one third--more than the Government's figure of £173. A comparison between the average rates bill for the current year for adults and the community charge starting next month shows that poll tax payers in Blaenau Gwent, in Cynon Valley and in Rhondda will pay more than £100 more per person once transitional relief ends. No council in Wales--be it Labour, Conservative or independent--has levied a poll tax at the Welsh Office figure. The introduction of transitional relief smacks of panic by a Government who have recognised the enormity of the opposition to the poll tax among ordinary people and the size of electoral disaster that threatens to engulf them. The Government have dug themselves such an immense hole that they need more than transitional relief stepladders to get out of it.

If Welsh authorities are charge-capped, who will do the capping? Will that be the last act of the present Secretary of State for Wales or the first act of the present Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities? That question should be answered. Should there be charge capping, the Secretary of State should make a statement in the House. We are tired of statements of importance to Wales being made outside this place. We are tired of Government by press release. The poll tax is unpopular in Wales. We believe that it will create more debt in the Principality. We fear that it will divide families and that young people may leave home because of the tension and debt that it will create within

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homes. We regret that people looked after by carers or relatives must pay the poll tax, while those in institutional care will not. We also believe that the Government have greatly underestimated the administrative costs of this iniquitous tax. No council treasurer in Wales believes that there will be 100 per cent. collection of the poll tax.

We in Wales believe that the poll tax is unjust. It is not related in any way to ability to pay. Nobody would deny that Wales is a mature political democracy. However this despised tax is dubbed and however it is tarted up, the Welsh people will continue to believe that the poll tax is unjust and entirely unacceptable. When the poll tax demands go through letter boxes in Wales next week, the shame will be that the poorest of our people will be hit the worst. That is why the Opposition oppose what the Government propose.

11.55 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Ian Grist) : It is extraordinary that the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mr. Jones) accords such importance to this subject that, at the last sitting of the Welsh Grand Committee, instead of debating this subject, we debated the effect on Wales of the Channel tunnel. That demonstrates the hon. Gentleman's depth of feeling.

I assure my right hon. and hon. Friends that we have the operation of the community charge very much in mind and we are aware of their concerns about it. We listen to what is said, and that is why we have the regulations and why they are in the shape they are. The Government will go on listening and taking note of what happens on the ground, and we will act accordingly. We could, of course, do absolutely no less. I certainly make that promise to my right hon. Friend the Member for Brent, North (Sir R. Boyson).

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon) : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Grist : I shall not give way.

The regulations are designed to ease the passage from one system to another --they are not permanent crutches. Indeed, the three years over which they are to operate give local authorities, if they have any concern for their poorer citizens, time to moderate their expenditure ambitions and thus to keep their community charge at a reasonable and moderate level. Certainly, as we have seen north of the border, after the initial disgraceful burst when the new system was set up last year, local authorities have begun to moderate this year as those who pay the charge come to understand the system a little better. What is clear is that many councillors, mainly supporters of the Opposition, enjoy spending other people's money. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) pointed out, their motto is "Spend, spend, spend." Of course we are still in the dark about just how Labour Members would raise the money that they are going to spend. Will it be from income tax, a roof tax, or from some sort of capital values? Will rates be revived? We never hear the answer. We always hear how to spend money, never how to raise it. It beggars belief that they should propose such expenditure ; the effect on inflation and interest rates would be catastrophic.

A major purpose of the community charge is that local councils will be answerable to local electors. Electors will quickly see in their bills the results of councils' inefficiency

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or empire building. The effects of local authority overspending were outlined very clearly in the earlier speech by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

The regulations for Wales have been welcomed by Welsh local authorities and by the financial adviser to the Welsh counties, who said that they were extremely well targeted. They are clear, easily understood, and cheap to operate. [Interruption.] Hon. Members from England could not have been listening to the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside. He accepted that the Welsh system is easily understood, and so it is. It has benefited about 750,000 people by between £1 and £93. It is based on communities, or parishes as they are called in England, and compensates all those who--

Mr. Barry Jones : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Grist : No.

It compensates all those who, on the basis of last year's rates, uprated by the retail prices index and allocated per head, find themselves paying £18 or more than the Welsh Office's target figures. Any payment above that figure is the result of the local authorities dunning their own citizens. As a result of the transitional scheme, 324 communities out of 860 in Wales will benefit and 35 out of 37 districts contain communities that will benefit from the relief. Already community charge bills incorporating this scheme have been sent out. Were the regulations to be defeated, all those authorities and communities involved would have to cancel their current bills and send out higher, and in some cases much higher, fresh bills--at heaven knows what expense--and to the dismay of beneficiaries and local authorities. That, of course, applies to England as well as Wales. In the Welsh context, it is noticeable that 14 district authorities and two counties have increased budgets by 10 per cent. or less from 1989-90. If they were able--

It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Madam Deputy Speaker-- put the Question pursuant to Order [23 March] :

The House divided : Ayes 233, Noes 305.

Division No. 141] [12 midnight

AYES

Abbott, Ms Diane

Adams, Allen (Paisley N)

Allen, Graham

Alton, David

Anderson, Donald

Archer, Rt Hon Peter

Armstrong, Hilary

Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy

Ashley, Rt Hon Jack

Ashton, Joe

Banks, Tony (Newham NW)

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)

Barron, Kevin

Battle, John

Beckett, Margaret

Beith, A. J.

Bell, Stuart

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Bermingham, Gerald

Bidwell, Sydney

Blair, Tony

Boateng, Paul

Boyes, Roland

Bradley, Keith

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)

Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)

Brown, Ron (Edinburgh Leith)

Buckley, George J.

Caborn, Richard

Callaghan, Jim

Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)

Campbell, Ron (Blyth Valley)

Campbell-Savours, D. N.

Carlile, Alex (Mont'g)

Cartwright, John

Clark, Dr David (S Shields)

Clarke, Tom (Monklands W)

Clay, Bob

Clelland, David

Clwyd, Mrs Ann

Cohen, Harry

Cook, Frank (Stockton N)

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Corbett, Robin

Corbyn, Jeremy

Cousins, Jim

Cox, Tom

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Column 174

Crowther, Stan

Cryer, Bob

Cummings, John

Cunliffe, Lawrence

Cunningham, Dr John

Dalyell, Tam

Darling, Alistair

Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli)

Davies, Ron (Caerphilly)

Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H'l)

Dewar, Donald

Dixon, Don

Dobson, Frank

Doran, Frank

Duffy, A. E. P.

Dunnachie, Jimmy

Dunwoody, Hon Mrs Gwyneth

Eadie, Alexander

Eastham, Ken

Evans, John (St Helens N)

Ewing, Harry (Falkirk E)

Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray)

Fatchett, Derek

Faulds, Andrew

Fearn, Ronald

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Field, Frank (Birkenhead)

Fields, Terry (L'pool B G'n)

Fisher, Mark

Flannery, Martin

Flynn, Paul

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Foster, Derek

Foulkes, George

Fraser, John

Fyfe, Maria

Galloway, George

Garrett, John (Norwich South)

George, Bruce

Godman, Dr Norman A.

Gordon, Mildred

Gould, Bryan

Graham, Thomas

Grant, Bernie (Tottenham)

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)

Grocott, Bruce

Hardy, Peter

Harman, Ms Harriet

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Haynes, Frank

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Henderson, Doug

Hinchliffe, David

Hoey, Ms Kate (Vauxhall)

Hogg, N. (C'nauld & Kilsyth)

Home Robertson, John

Hood, Jimmy

Howarth, George (Knowsley N)

Howell, Rt Hon D. (S'heath)

Howells, Geraint

Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd)

Hoyle, Doug

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Hughes, Roy (Newport E)

Hughes, Simon (Southwark)

Illsley, Eric

Janner, Greville

Jones, Barry (Alyn & Deeside)

Jones, Ieuan (Ynys Mo n)

Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S W)

Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald

Kennedy, Charles

Kilfedder, James

Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil

Kirkwood, Archy

Lamond, James

Leadbitter, Ted

Leighton, Ron

Lewis, Terry

Litherland, Robert

Livingstone, Ken

Livsey, Richard

Lloyd, Tony (Stretford)

Lofthouse, Geoffrey

Loyden, Eddie

McAllion, John

McAvoy, Thomas

McCartney, Ian

Macdonald, Calum A.

McFall, John

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

McKelvey, William

Maclennan, Robert

McNamara, Kevin

McWilliam, John

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Maxton, John

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Meacher, Michael

Meale, Alan

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Michie, Mrs Ray (Arg'l & Bute)

Moonie, Dr Lewis

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Mowlam, Marjorie

Mullin, Chris

Murphy, Paul

Nellist, Dave

Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon

O'Brien, William

O'Neill, Martin

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Owen, Rt Hon Dr David

Patchett, Terry

Pendry, Tom

Pike, Peter L.

Prescott, John

Primarolo, Dawn

Quin, Ms Joyce

Radice, Giles

Randall, Stuart

Redmond, Martin

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

Richardson, Jo

Robertson, George

Robinson, Peter (Belfast E)

Rogers, Allan

Rooker, Jeff

Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)

Rowlands, Ted

Ruddock, Joan

Salmond, Alex

Sedgemore, Brian

Sheerman, Barry

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Short, Clare

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

Smith, Rt Hon J. (Monk'ds E)

Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

Snape, Peter

Soley, Clive

Spearing, Nigel

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Steel, Rt Hon Sir David

Steinberg, Gerry

Stott, Roger

Strang, Gavin

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