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Terrorists (Extradition)
10. Mr. Hunter : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had recently with Ministers of the Republic of Ireland about the extradition of convicted or suspected terrorists from the Republic.
Mr. Brooke : Extradition matters were discussed at the latest meeting of the Anglo-Irish Conference on 2 March. I have not had the opportunity to speak to Ministers of the Republic of Ireland since the disappointing outcome of the Finucane and Clarke hearings, but I hope to do so shortly.
Mr. Hunter : In the light of the recent case of Dermot Finucane and James Clarke, does my right hon. Friend now agree that the Republic of Ireland is a safe haven for terrorists and that that seriously undermines the validity of the Anglo-Irish Agreement? Would not it be better to negotiate and to come to an agreement with Ulster Unionists rather than with a Government who appear to support terrorists?
Mr. Brooke : At the time of the extradition judgments, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear in the House that the judgments might give some people the impression that terrorists would have a safe haven in the Republic. The Anglo-Irish Agreement continues to be a serviceable instrument for the discussion of such matters, and in that respect we shall continue to support it.
Mr. Maginnis : Will the Secretary of State protest in the most strenuous manner at the judgment by a majority of Supreme Court judges in the Irish Republic who ruled that political exemption from extradition should
"apply to persons charged with politically motivated offences when the objective of such offences was to secure the ultimate unity of the country"?
Does the right hon. Gentleman concede that that amounts to a mandate for terrorist warfare conducted against the Unionist community in Northern Ireland being enshrined within the legal interpretation of the Extradition Act 1965 of the Irish Republic?
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Mr. Brooke : The Irish Government have been left in no doubt, through the secretariat, of the strength of our feelings about the judgment to which the hon. Gentleman referred and which he will recall elicited astonishment in the Republic. I agree that the implications for future extradition cases from the Republic, especially those relating to the political offence exception, are extremely serious. However, I do not go as far as the hon. Getleman's final interpretation.
Mr. Gow : Will my right hon. Friend make representations to the Government of the Irish Republic that it is most desirable to remove articles 2 and 3 from the constitution of the Irish Republic? Will he assure the House that he has made such representations, either directly or through the framework of the secretariat?
Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend is correct to refer to articles 2 and 3, as they relate to the Supreme Court's judgment. In answer to an earlier question, I made quite clear the Government's attitude towards articles 2 and 3.
Mr. William Ross : The Secretary of State says that the Government of the Irish Republic have been left in no doubt as to his strength of feeling. Am I to understand that he now understands the full meaning of the judgment to which my hon. Friend the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone (Mr. Maginnis) referred?
Mr. Brooke : I did not entirely catch the hon. Gentleman's question, but I point out that the court's judgment has obviously been subjected to considerable scrutiny with a view to the conversations that we shall be having in the future.
Mr. Hayes : Has my right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear.
Mr. Speaker : Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to ask his question sitting down?
Mr. Hayes : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is nice to get a little sympathy.
Has my right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear to the Irish Government that Conservative Members are utterly appalled at the decision of the Irish Supreme Court? Has he warned them that if this sort of behaviour continues, it will provide more ammunition for those people who are against the Anglo- Irish Agreement and who want to undermine relations between this country and the south of Ireland? Does he agree that that would be regrettable?
Mr. Brooke : I know that I speak on behalf of the whole House in expressing sympathy with my hon. Friend for his injuries. In answer to my hon. Friend's question, I remind the House that this was a decision of the Irish Supreme Court. The Irish Government were acting on our behalf and were as anxious as we were to secure a satisfactory solution. In that light, we shall be having further discussions with the Irish Government.
Mr. McNamara : Does the Secretary of State accept that our overriding concern must be to ensure that offenders are brought to justice- -not where they are brought to justice? Given that the use of the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act does not excite the same controversy as
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extradition, should not the right hon. Gentleman and his Irish counterpart consider means of increasing the number of cases that are tried under that legislation?Mr. Brooke : The hon. Gentleman is correct to raise that issue, but it is really one for my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General.
Enterprise Agencies
11. Dr. Woodcock : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many enterprise agencies are currently operating ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Needham : Twenty six, and a further six agencies are at an advanced stage of negotiation.
Dr. Woodcock : Does my hon. Friend agree that enterprise is the key to success in Northern Ireland? How many jobs and how many industrial units are currently being provided by enterprise agency networks in Northern Ireland? Does he agree that it is Conservative Governments who constantly support enterprise?
Mr. Needham : Of course, I agree with my hon. Friend. In Northern Ireland we have 800 units, in which 26,000 people are employed. The key to the success of Northern Ireland's economy is the private sector and the creation of small businesses. In that regard, we have a very good record, which will improve.
Mr. Molyneaux : Does the Minister agree that if this agency is to achieve its aims, it must have a skilled work force at its disposal? Can he explain the remark of the Secretary of State for Employment on 27 March? Referring to training credits, the Secretary of State said :
"There are no present plans to extend the scheme to Northern Ireland.--[ Official Report, 27 March 1990 ; Vol. 170, c. 215.] Mr. Needham : We are just about to launch the Training and Employment Agency, which we believe is the first step in substantially improving the skills of our work force. We have a very good education system and many skills, but we believe that we can do much better. The best way of achieving this is through the Training and Employment Agency. Of course, at some stage in the future we shall consider what further steps need to be taken, and whether we should come closer to the system in the rest of the United Kingdom.
Kincora Boys' Home
12. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, pursuant to the Official Report, 1 March, column 370, what consideration he has given to allegations that the Army informed the Royal Ulster Constabulary of what was going on at the Kincora boys' home before 24 January 1980.
Mr. Cope : Various statements have been made by individuals, but all these allegations were available and were investigated as fully as possible by the RUC and by Sir George Terry six years and more ago. If anyone has new evidence, will he please put it to the police?
Mr. Dalyell : Have Ministers changed their minds about the authenticity of the two Army documents to which Michael Taylor, the former Army information officer at the time, referred on "Channel 4 News" last night? The
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Minister asks for new information. It came from Broderick and from others involved in the programme. Who was right-- Ministers or the people who bore witness last night on "Channel 4 News"?Mr. Cope : I saw the news programme to which the hon. Gentleman referred, but I am in no position to confirm or deny the authenticity of the documents. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the RUC forensic report was inconclusive. That has been known for a long time. As to the individuals who made statements on the programme, all the allegations that were repeated yesterday have been investigated, but we stand ready to look at new evidence if it comes forward. I did not detect any in the programme last night, but I am having the transcript of it carefully examined to see whether there is any new evidence there.
PRIME MINISTER
Engagements
Q1. Mr. Hoyle : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) : This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today. This evening I shall be speaking at the Anglo-German Koenigswinter conference dinner to be held in Cambridge.
Mr. Hoyle : Will the Prime Minister take time off from her engagements to investigate why the out-patient vehicle service in Cheshire has not been raised from the skeleton level to which it was reduced during the ambulance dispute? Is not it wrong that her Government are cost-cutting at the expense of the sick, the infirm and the disabled? Instead of the Prime Minister giving her usual outmoded and outdated statistics on the Health Service, will she take steps immediately to bring that inhuman treatment of patients to an end?
The Prime Minister : I shall refer the detailed matter to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Health. I do not give the House outdated statistics. This year, according to contemporary statistics, the taxpayer has contributed an extra £2.4 billion to the National Health Service and next year the taxpayer will be contributing a further £3 billion to the NHS. The total figure was £7.5 billion a year when I came into No. 10 Downing street : now the taxpayer will contribute £29 billion a year to the National Health Service.
Q2. Mr. Kirkhope : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Kirkhope : When my right hon. Friend sees Chancellor Kohl tomorrow, will she explain to him that the British people understand Germany's desire for unification, but that they want to be sure that it will strengthen Europe's security and stability and that it will mean the united Germany being a member of NATO, and the presence of British and American forces, with nuclear weapons, on German soil?
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The Prime Minister : My hon. Friend is right. I am sure that he will be listened to carefully because I understand that he was one of the parliamentary observers at the recent East German elections. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Chancellor Kohl has been very firm in his support of NATO and of a united Germany being in NATO. He has also been very firm in his support for American troops and nuclear weapons being stationed on German soil. Those are vital for the future defence of freedom.Mr. Kinnock : If the Prime Minister had her time again, would she still introduce the poll tax?
The Prime Minister : Yes, Sir.
Mr. Kinnock : I am very grateful for that reply-- [Interruption.] Does the Prime Minister think that if they had their time again, her hon. Friends would vote for the poll tax?
The Prime Minister : Yes. It is infinitely-- [Interruption.]
The Prime Minister : It is infinitely preferable to a rating revaluation, which would put a colossal burden on half the people who reside in local authority areas, and it is infinitely preferable to Labour's roof tax and local income tax.
Mr. Kinnock : The Prime Minister must be just about the last person in the country who believes all that claptrap. The people of Britain know that from Sunday they will have imposed on them a tax of monstrous injustice and cost, and it will have been imposed by her Government. It is incompatible with democracy.
The Prime Minister : I notice that the right hon. Gentleman wisely keeps silent about his own policy of a roof tax plus a local income tax-- [Interruption.] Of course he does, because the moment he enunciates a policy it is blown sky-high.
Mr. Ashby : My right hon. Friend will know that the whole House is deeply concerned about the discovery of nuclear triggers destined for Iraq, about which there will be a statement later. There has been a steady flow of defensive weapons and technology to Iraq over the years. Will my right hon. Friend get together with our European friends as a matter of urgency and institute a meeting to try to stop the flow of this technology and equipment to Iraq and to preserve peace in the middle east?
The Prime Minister : My hon. Friend is right. The attempted spread of nuclear weapons is very serious and Customs are to be congratulated on having foiled an effort to spread them further. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will be answering a private notice question, during which he will make a full statement. In the meantime, we shall urgently be contacting the signatories to the non-proliferation treaty and the missile technology control regime to see what we can do to prevent a repeat of this serious incident.
Q3. Mr. Barron : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
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Mr. Barron : Does the Prime Minister think it right that over 42, 000 student nurses in Britain on low incomes should have to pay the full rate of poll tax?
The Prime Minister : Before long, most student nurses--those who are not yet registered as full nurses--will be on Project 2000. That means that they will be paid a bursary and treated fully as ordinary students ; therefore, they will pay only 20 per cent. of the community charge. Before long, most of them will be on that system. [Interruption.] In the meantime, some student nurses who are in receipt of a salary will be treated like all other trainees who are in receipt of a salary. If the salary were very low, they would be eligible for rebate, but most of them will be paying the community charge in full. That was taken into account in the recent pay award and the speed at which it was implemented.
Q4. Sir John Stokes : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Sir John Stokes : Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is considerable anxiety about the teaching of English history in our schools? Instead of teaching only what are called themes, why cannot we go back to the good old days when we learnt by heart the names of the kings and queens of England, the names of our warriors and battles and the glorious deeds of our past? [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker : Order. I am sure that the whole House wants to hear the reply.
The Prime Minister : As usual, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. What children should be taught in history is the subject of vigorous debate. I agree with him. Most of us are expected to learn from experience of history and we cannot do that unless we know it. Children should know the great landmarks of British history and should be taught them at school.
Mr. Hume : Will the Prime Minister recall with me that 16 years ago, 21 working-class people were having a quite drink in public houses in Birmingham when they were blown to pieces by the IRA? Does she agree that there is no greater injustice than an atrocity of that nature because it cannot be changed and those people cannot come out of their graves? Does she further agree that the wave of anger and emotion that swept Britain following that atrocity was both natural and understandable?
Does the Prime Minister agree that it is not understandable that that wave of anger and emotion should distort the course of justice and lead to the conviction of the wrong people? Given the overwhelming evidence that is emerging and the deep anxiety that has been expressed by respected national figures in Britain and abroad, will she now personally order an independent inquiry into the whole affair?
The Prime Minister : Most of us recall the scenes of that terrorist act, and the great tragedy will live with some families for ever. But we do not conduct trial by television. The place to put any new evidence is with the police. My right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary said that if there is any fresh evidence in the meantime, of course, it will be looked at carefully. The hon. Gentleman will be aware of investigations that are under way with the
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chief constables of the West Midlands and of Devon and Cornwall to inquire into the latest evidence. Then it will be for the prosecuting authorities and my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary to decide whether any further action should be taken, bearing in mind that there has already been one rehearing by the Court of Appeal, which gave a very detailed judgment.The hon. Gentleman referred to emotions. We must not let our emotions run away with us either. It is a matter of evidence before the courts, not of feelings.
Q5. Mrs. Maureen Hicks : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mrs. Hicks : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the need for her trade union electoral reforms was never more obvious than in recent weeks with the dubious electoral practices of the Transport and General Workers Union--the union which sponsors the Leader of the Opposition?
The Prime Minister : All our measures on trade union reform were well judged and have been of great benefit to ordinary members of trade unions. I hope that one day the Transport and General Workers Union will take a move to the right. It will be very welcome.
Mr. Mullin : Is the Prime Minister aware that this morning her press secretary quietly briefed the press that no new developments have occurred in the past few days in the Birmingham pub bombing case? Would not the appropriate course of action be for the Home Secretary to come to the House and say that out loud so that hon. Members can ask the many questions that arise?
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The Prime Minister : No. A television programme alters nothing. We do not have trial by television, and the day we do, the rule of law will have left this country for good. The only thing that matters in a court of law is evidence and the only thing that matters in reopening a case is whether there is any fresh evidence. I am not yet aware that there is, but if there is, that matter will be fully taken into account by my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary.
Q6. Mr. Beaumont-Dark : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 29 March.
The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.
Mr. Beaumont-Dark : Does my right hon. Friend accept that she has many friends and admirers in this House? [Interruption.] Does she also accept that there was a need to change our system of local government finance? But the poll tax has become friendless even among those who gain most because they do not recognise it as fair or as based upon people's ability to pay. Can we set ourselves upon a path on which ability to pay plays a bigger part than where one happens to live, fortunately or unfortunately?
The Prime Minister : First, ability to pay is taken care of by the most generous community charge rebates this country has ever known. Every penny of those rebates is taken care of by the taxpayer. Secondly, the majority of expenditure of local authorities is met not by the community charge payer, but by the taxpayer. The taxpayer is part of a progressive system of tax under which, of course, the rich pay far more than the poor. Those are two facts. I can think of nothing more unfair than a system of rating that ensured that half the people who voted for local authorities did not pay a penny piece.
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