| Previous Section | Home Page |
Mr. Leigh : Again, I am grateful to my hon. Friend.
Mr. John Marshall : My hon. Friend has mentioned various members of the Government who he feels ought to be present, but so far he has not referred to the Department of the Environment. It seems to me that the House is all too willing to place additional
responsibilities on local authorities and then complain about the community charge levied by those authorities. Does my hon. Friend agree that a representative of the Department of the Environment should be here to discuss this further additional burden upon community charge payers throughout the country?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I am sure that the hon. Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle will remember that we are dealing with a motion to recommit clause 12.
Mr. Leigh : I do not wish to delay the House any longer than I need to, to underline my constitutional point, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Column 802
How extraordinary it is that the promoter of the Bill--the man who has piloted the Bill through the House so far--has not only informed the House that he was not aware that a money resolution was necessary ; apparently he was not here last night and knew nothing of what the Minister was doing. I may have misunderstood and I shall happily give way to the hon. Gentleman if he wishes me to do so. Is this a private Member's Bill or a Government Bill? Is it really up to my hon. Friend the Minister to rescue the hon. Gentleman from his own mistakes? I am piloting a private Members' Bill through the House at present, and I do not expect Ministers of the Crown to rescue me from my own folly. Ministers of the Crown are supposed to give their views and observations on private Members' Bills on behalf of the Crown. They are not supposed to intervene in this detailed manner in private Members' business.That is another constitutional point. The promoter of the Bill should have spotted the difficulty and ensured that a money resolution was incorporated in the Bill. I must say that, in that regard, some element of responsibility must rest with the Clerks, whose job it is to advise on these matters, although, as I said before, I make no criticism of them. We are not experts. I do not entirely blame the Bill's promoter, and perhaps if I had been bringing in such a Bill I would have made a similar mistake. The Opposition are constantly criticising the Government for increasing the community charge and public expenditure in a way that they do not like. I do not want to waste the time of the House by quoting from the speech made on Second Reading by the promoter of the Bill, but I have read through it. Presumably he was trying to convince the House by what he left unsaid that the Bill would cost nothing. At the end of Second Reading and proceedings in Committee we found that the Bill would be a charge on the public purse. Are our procedures worth nothing? Every schoolboy who studies our constitution knows that a Bill has to go through Second Reading, Committee and Report stage, during the last of which any amendments considered in Committee are considered again by the whole House. Finally, a Bill is given its Third Reading. Schoolboys are not told that in some cases, because mistakes are made, matters are sometimes swept under the carpet and someone says, "Let us send it to a Commitee of the whole House." We should reject the motion and send the Bill back to Committee for proper discussion which it has clearly not enjoyed thus far. I shall vote against the motion.
Mr. Wilshire : Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), I rise to speak not because I oppose the Bill but because I want some guidance from the Minister and the promoter to help me make up my mind whether to vote for or against the motion. As hon. Members have said, the procedures being followed raise fundamental constitutional issues and cannot be allowed to go unchallenged. We must know whether what we are doing is right or merely expedient. If it is right, I shall vote for it ; if it is a matter of expediency to help somebody out of a hole, I shall not vote for it.
I make no apology for detaining the House because two important constitutional issues are raised. First, how do we legislate and how is Britain governed by its legislature? Secondly, what is the quality of our legislation? We need to think about those matters before we go any further.
Column 803
Some hon. Members have said that anybody who wishes to go down this road is simply using a procedural ploy to try to kill the Bill.Mr. Nigel Griffiths (Edinburgh, South) : Quite right.
Mr. Wilshire : The intervention makes my point.
The Official Report makes it crystal clear that in Committee I said that I am not seeking to wreck the Bill. I wholeheartedly support its objectives and the record will bear me out. Every hon. Member wishes to encourage competition in the market place.
Mr. Griffiths: It is becoming apparent that the hon. Gentleman has come halfway round the world to sabotage the Bill and that there is an orchestrated attempt to sabotage it. That is the purpose of all the bogus filibustering points of order and amendments. Spurious points of order have been made, not one of which has been accepted by you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as genuine. It is a monstrous filibuster to ensure that the consumer is the victim and to ensure that the rights of producers are protected by their vested interests.
Mr. Wilshire : That was a fascinating speech rather than an intervention, and it was wrong from start to finish. I am perfectly content to stand by my record and I do not worry about such ill-researched accusations. I sat through Second Reading and made constructive comments. The Opposition moved a closure motion which prevented me from making further constructive and helpful comments. I served on the Committee and I defy the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths) to find anything that I said there which was a wrecking tactic. My contributions were constructive. I pointed to weaknesses and offered to try to improve the Bill on Report. I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman again if he wishes to advance evidence to back his stupid claims.
Mr. Griffiths : If the Government were genuine in wanting to protect the consumer, by this stage we should be well into the proceedings and not engaging in nitpicking on technical aspects of the Bill. Notes have been passed to Conservative Members from the Minister's Parliamentary Private Secretary and the Government Whip has been speaking from behind his hand issuing instructions to his colleagues. The tactics being employed are quite clear and we deplore them.
Mr. Wilshire : I shall deal with this continuing nonsense. It is clear from the intervention that if something is important to the Labour party, blow the constitution and the procedures of the House. I shall return to that. When it suits the Opposition's purpose, procedures seem not to matter. I was accused of returning to this country to take part in an attempt to kill the Bill. I shall explain why I made every effort to be here today. It is a courtesy to be involved in every stage of the Bill. I am sorry that I could not be here last night. At least I am prepared to apologise even if other hon. Members are not. I came back because I have played a constructive part from the beginning, and I wished as a matter of courtesy to the House to see the Bill through to the end. I reject the allegations that have been made.
Column 804
10.15 amMr. Viggers : In view of the offensive attack by the Opposition, I should point out to my hon. Friend that when the issue came before the House on 26 January I was the first to intervene in the promoter's speech to say that I had a serious concern on behalf of the consumer electronics industry with which I have no financial connection whatever. I said that appendix 2, which lists the products that are the subject of the Bill, was too wide and I asked the promoter whether he would be prepared to consider revising that list. I have already expressed serious concern about the breadth of the Bill and I find it most offensive that the hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths) should accuse me and others of seeking to filibuster and to destroy the Bill. That is certainly not my purpose.
Mr. Wilshire : My hon. Friend's intervention underlines the fact that the allegations being levelled against us are based on no research whatever. They are not backed by the facts, which makes one wonder just who is trying to wreck the Bill.
Mr. Squire : My hon. Friend will remember that I spoke on Second Reading and have followed the Bill closely. The hon. Member for Edinburgh, South (Mr. Griffiths) accuses us of wrecking tactics, but we did not create the situation. There has been no suggestion that this is the fault of those Back Benchers who did not sponsor the Bill. We have yet to hear whether the fault lies with the Minister or the promoter. We are being accused of delay and I find that offensive.
Mr. Wilshire : I entirely agree, and I shall return to that. As I was seeking to make clear to the House when I was interrupted by Opposition nonsense, every hon. Member seeks to encourage competition in the market place between producers and products. There is no dispute about that. It is equally important to understand, when speaking about procedural matters, that the second objective of the Bill, which is about clearing up any doubt about consumer rights, is supported by all of us. Thirdly, when we pursue important procedural matters it is because we seek a better quality of product through legislation. There is no basic disagreement. It is possible to have concerns about procedural matters without being opposed to the objectives of the Bill. It is dangerous, however, to play fast and loose with the procedures of a sovereign Parliament merely because the intentions behind a Bill are laudable.
I realise that procedural wrangles excite people. Equally, I understand that such wrangles make bad viewing and bad listening. It is important, therefore, to spell out why procedural wrangles are sometimes of fundamental importance to the British people as well as to the House. First, it must be understood that this is a sovereign Parliament. We do not have a constitution and, to put it bluntly, if we wished to do so we could change anything we wished. We could pass whatever legislation we liked. That could be a dangerous power. If we are considering setting a precedent and behaving like a sovereign Parliament, as we have every right to do, we need to stop and think for a moment. We should step back from consumer protection and talk about the sovereignty of Parliament and the interests of the British people.
Column 805
Secondly--this is a danger to guard against- -we are about to enter into a discussion on whether the ends justify the means. Those who wish to question the means of keeping the Bill on the tracks are being accused of being against the Bill, but I am concerned that we do not take what history has shown time and again to be a dangerous step. When the ends are made to justify the means, awful things have a horrible habit of following. It is important that we take time to consider that.Thirdly, even if we accept that the procedure that we are discussing is right for a sovereign Parliament, and even if we reject the worry about the ends justifying the means, what about the slippery-slope argument--that having done it once, it is convenient to do it again, perhaps in small ways initially--until in three, four or five years' time we discover that the House of Commons, far from being a protector of the British people, has become an organisation which will do anything on the spur of the moment merely because it suits the convenience of a private Member or the Government of the day? These matters are so fundamental that we need to stop and think about them.
The way in which legislation is processed is at the heart of every democracy, and we bring the process into disrepute at our peril. When mistakes are made, as has clearly happened in this instance, we have to learn to live with the consequences. It seems that we are being told that with a bit of sleight of hand, a quick vote and a shuffle, we can get rid of the record and start again. On a matter of such importance to the National Consumer Council and to consumers, we are being asked to do the opposite of what the Bill sets out to achieve.
Mr. Forth : My hon. Friend was kind enough to explain why he was unable to be present last night. I moved the money resolution at about 11 pm, almost at the close of the day's proceedings. My hon. Friend may not appreciate that I was able to move the resolution formally because the promoter was unable to be present. There was no debate on the resolution. My hon. Friend must understand that we have not had a chance to consider the money resolution in the way that we normally would. I hope that he will bear that in mind.
Mr. Wilshire : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention as I wished to refer to that very matter. That is why I raised it on a point of order at the beginning of the debate. I wished to establish from Hansard what was said last night. There are some important issues to consider, and I shall refer to them in due course.
It is important to understand that the purpose of the Bill is to ensure that the manufacturer or supplier of a product is not allowed to get off the hook if it suits his convenience. That is at the heart of the Bill, but to enact it we are being asked to let the drafter, the promoter, the Minister and everyone else go back to the beginning again because a mistake has been made. That privilege will not be granted to a manufacturer if the Bill takes its place on the statute book. We are being asked to set a dangerous precedent.
Mr. John Marshall : Does my hon. Friend agree that the promoter is engaging in a charade with the House? I draw the attention of my hon. Friend to amendments Nos. 133 and 134, which stand in the promoter's name. I note that the promoter is not even listening. His amendments would provide no guarantee. Indeed, if they were accepted they
Column 806
would make this discussion irrelevant. It is disgraceful that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to table amendments in a hole and corner way which, if accepted, would take the guts out of his Bill. We are wasting the time of the House. As I have said, if amendments Nos. 133 and 134 are agreed to, this discussion will be irrelevant.Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We must not anticipate amendments which may be discussed later.
Mr. Leigh : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. A serious matter has been raised. My hon. Friends and I have been accused of trying to waste time when we wish to debate important constitutional issues. We are being asked to agree to a motion which would enable the Bill to be reconsidered in Committee by a Committee of the whole House, to agree to a money resolution and to spend £1 million of public money, when there are amendments which, if agreed to, would wipe out all that we are dealing with now. Those amendments have been tabled by the promoter. It is a farce from beginning to end and there is a danger of the House being brought into disrepute. I urge you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to adjourn the sitting for a few minutes so that the promoter can reflect on what the hell he is playing at.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The procedure before us is complicated enough without introducing further complications. Let us take one step at a time. If we do that, we may get on better.
Mr. Wilshire : I shall follow your guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker. For the moment, I shall be pleased to debate constitutional issues rather than the details of the Bill. It is vital that we separate what is fundamental to the way in which the country is governed from a piece of legislation that we may have to consider at another stage. First, we must overcome the hurdle of whether we can deal with the Bill this morning, but if I am asked to support the Bill I shall need to have frank answers to some pertinent questions. The formal statement made by the sponsor was, in my judgment, wholly inadequate and did not help me to make up my mind. We need to be persuaded why we should support the motion rather than being told why the motion is necessary. We must consider whether to support the motion, not whether it is necessary. We must consider whether we should set a precedent so as to enable the Bill to take its place on the statute book.
If the promoter can spare a moment from his discussion on tactics, I wish to put some questions which he must answer. First, may we be assured that clause 12 is the only clause which involves a money resolution, or shall we be told at some later stage that there is another? There must be a categorical assurance on the record so that we know where we stand. If things go wrong again, the same arguments cannot be advanced a second time.
Next, who is responsible for this cock-up?
Mr. Wilshire : I am only echoing what was said earlier. I believe that the term that I used properly describes the mess in which we find ourselves and I do not apologise for using it on this occasion--it is the best description that I can think of.
Who is responsible? Is it the National Consumer Council? The briefing that it sent to all hon. Members for
Column 807
Second Reading, in support of a Bill which it openly admits to having sponsored and prepared from the beginning, and then persuaded the hon. Member for Clwyd, South-West (Mr. Jones) to bring forward, states on page 2 under the heading "Legally Sound" :"The report was drawn up by an NCC working party, including practising lawyers and leading academics."
So the report was right. The most telling part of all states : "The Bill was drafted by experienced counsel with guidance from a leading authority on consumer law and technical assistance from the Former First Parliamentary Counsel."
10.30 am
Given that expertise, and that claim about how well things have been done, it is odd that we should be in this mess. Will the promoter of the Bill tell me whether the NCC has anything to answer for? Alternatively, was it the promoter himself? At the beginning he said no, and of course I believe him, but it would be helpful for him to explain in some detail why the answer is no.
No one has yet asked whether the Department of Trade and Industry was somehow responsible. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister could tell me what Sir Humphrey and Bernard were up to during this process. Or, to come closer to home, was the Minister himself responsible? I am sorry to say this, but it must be put on the record if we are seeking to find out who got it wrong. Did his silence, for which he has been criticised, conceal something that he knew?
If it proves impossible to dig the Bill out of this mess, many accusations will follow. There will be attempts to spell out for the British public who was to blame. I can already imagine the toothy smile on a Sunday night, with a series of little pictures saying that these are the people who spoke about the procedures of the United Kingdom--send them a postcard. I can equally see some screaming headlines in Which? , with little photographs-- [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) wish to say something? It seems not.
Hon. Members will be accused of trying to kill the Bill, for whatever reasons. We must get this clear from the beginning. If people outside the House wish to apportion blame, we need to know the truth about who is to blame, or the wrong assumptions will be made. Thirdly, will the promoter address the question of why the mistake was made? His answer will colour the way in which I vote. Was it because the people who prepared the Bill did not seek advice, or because they did not follow advice? It is important for us to know. Perhaps it was because they did not stop to think.
Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) : Tedious repetition.
Mr. Wilshire : Opposition Members may say that I am talking nonsense and accuse me of not wanting an answer, but I want an answer. If someone can show that the mistake was made in good faith, I will have some sympathy for the people who have got themselves into such a pickle. If it was done because someone could not be bothered, however, or because they thought that they knew better than the professional advice that they received, we are being asked to pay too high a price. We are being asked to get someone off the hook because of
Column 808
incompetence. The democratic process is far more important than any piece of legislation, however worthy that legislation may be. Fourthly, why is the promoter asking for a Committee of the whole House? That is dangerous. If clause 12 is considered in isolation by the whole House, what about the other clauses? What about those hon. Members who did not serve on the Standing Committee? Surely we cannot consider a money resolution's implications and a specific clause if hon. Members have not heard the detail of the other parts of the debate. It is doubly dangerous to ask the whole House to deal with a little bit of a Bill that has not been considered in detail.Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North) : It is done every time.
Mr. Wilshire : It is not done every time. If my hon. Friend had been here from the beginning, he would have heard it said that we are in danger of setting a precedent--[ Hon. Members-- : "He was here at the beginning."]--In that case, I withdraw that comment unreservedly. It is certainly dangerous to ask the whole House just to consider clause 12. If we are to involve the whole House in detailed consideration of just one bit, the House should be entitled to consider every clause to put the Bill into context ; otherwise, we are in danger of committing "ad hoccery" as well as setting precedents.
Those are four genuine questions to which I want answers. I hope that either the promoter of the Bill or the Minister--or both of them--will seek to answer those questions. Who made the mistake ; why did they do it ; why the whole House ; and are we certain that clause 12 is the only clause involved? I do not speak for others, but the answers that I receive will determine how I vote later.
Mr. Gale : I am sad that so few of the Bill's original sponsors are here this morning. I am certain that many of them will have issued press releases to their local press, saying how strongly they support the concept of consumer protection legislation. I do not doubt that the leader of what used to be called the Liberal party, whose name is appended to the Bill and none of whose colleagues are present, will have ensured that the relevant hocus-pocus leaflets were issued the length and breadth of the land.
I strongly believe that all the sponsors of the Bill must take full responsibility for our present position--and I say that as one of those sponsors. I believe that to some extent we have failed in our duty in Committee. I say that with no pleasure whatsoever. There are hon. Members present who believe that this piece of consumer protection legislation is necessary : my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd)--not an original sponsor of the Bill--was stalwart in Committee in putting his point of view. Clearly it is our responsibility that the money implications of the legislation were not perceived in Committee--I accept that unreservedly--it is apparent that many hon. Members are inexpert in parliamentary draftsmanship, and not entirely expert in foreseeing all the financial implications of private Members' legislation. It has been correctly said that this is an ambitious piece of legislation-- perhaps over-ambitious for a private Member's Bill. It would have been helpful if my hon. Friend the Minister, with the support of his civil servants, had in Committee been able to say that there were financial implications that needed further consideration. Had that been done, we could have addressed the matter--even at a late stage--in Committee.
Column 809
My hon. Friend the Minister has been accused of failing in his duty. I am saddened about that, and that aspersions have been cast on the performance of his civil servants and on that of the Clerks--which is unusual in the House, as we take responsibility for our decisions. It is our duty vigilantly to scrutinise legislation and to get it right. I am therefore grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister because although he did not raise the matter as a member of the Committee, at least he came here at a late hour last night and instigated the motion that we are now debating to allow the Bill to stay on the rails. Had he not done so, the proceedings would have collapsed because the Bill would have been unsound.In essence, the Bill is simple. It seeks to give consumers guarantees that are worth the paper on which they are written. They must be written clearly and must be meaningful. As was said on Second Reading and in Committee, the products that we are seeking to include are those upon which most households, albeit infrequently, spend very large sums of money. Although my hon. Friend the Minister does not agree with every dot and comma of the Bill, I know that he believes that additional protection is necessary, either through this Bill or under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. I hope and believe that those hon. Members present today also believe that additional consumer protection is necessary.
At the start of this morning's proceedings, Mr. Speaker ruled that it was in order to take this opportunity to correct an error made by the Committee, and therefore by the House. I do not regard that as setting a dangerous precedent, as some have suggested. The procedures of the House have been followed and Mr. Speaker has ruled that we are in order. Our procedures exist not to prevent legislation but to assist its passage. We want to get the Bill right. A large number of important amendments have been tabled both by the Bill's sponsor and by others, and we need to debate them this morning.
I hope that the House will not this morning send out a message to the public that we either wish to kill the Bill or that we are not concerned with the need for greater consumer protection through proper guarantees. I hope that the House will take this opportunity, which has quite properly been afforded by Mr. Speaker under our procedures, to accept the motion as swiftly as possible, so that the necessary corrections to the Bill can be made. We can then move on to discuss important amendments that will not only improve the legislation but make it possible for it to pass through its stages and become an Act that will give consumers the protection that I, at least, believe they deserve.
Mr. John Marshall : I was surprised when, earlier in the debate, my hon. Friend the Minister was described as unhelpful. I have known him for some time. He and I, together with our hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor) were elected to the European Parliament in 1979. My hon. Friend the Minister is an independent person, and he became known as a highly conscientious and hard-working MEP. Now that he is a British Minister, he has unfortunately lost his independence, but he remains as hard-working and conscientious as ever. Both my hon. Friend and the Bill's sponsor knew last night that a money resolution was required. It is obvious that the Bill's sponsor knew that, because it was he who tabled the motion on the Order Paper in respect of clause 12. However, it is significant that, of the two individuals
Column 810
who are the kernel of the debate, it was my hon. Friend the Minister who was here last night to move the money resolution. My understanding is that the Bill's sponsor was not even here. Who is the more helpful Member--my hon. Friend or the Bill's sponsor? It is quite clear that it is very much my hon. Friend, who has been at the forefront in this matter.It is appalling that a number of hon. Members have criticised the civil servants and the Clerks of the House, who must be silent advisers. As one of my right hon. Friends said on another occasion, advisers advise and Ministers decide. To attack advisers is deplorable and unparliamentary. They have no redress-- [Interruption.] It should be put on the record that advisers are hard-working, conscientious and, perhaps, reasonably well paid.
10.45 am
I am appalled that so much of the time of the House is being devoted to this discussion when the Bill's promoter wants to take the guts out of his own legislation. He intends to move amendments Nos. 133 and 134. Had he done that in Committtee, I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister would have accepted them. I should like some guidance from my hon. Friend on whether he finds the amendments acceptable
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman must not anticipate amendments that will be discussed later.
Mr. Marshall : They are relevant to this debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are being asked to commit clause 12 to a Committee of the whole House, yet later the Bill's sponsor will move an amendment asking that a large slug of the Bill be removed. Clause 12 will then be irrelevant. How can the sponsor ask that clause 12 be committed to a Committee of the whole House and then later, on Report, ask that it be taken out of the Bill? It is Alice in Wonderland.
Has there ever been another occasion on which a Bill's sponsor has come to the House on a Friday morning and asked for a discussion in time that has not been allocated? I am sure that the House is aware that some of my colleagues want other Bills, such as the War Crimes Bill, to be considered by a Committee of the whole House. The Bill's promoter wants a Committee of the whole House to discuss clause 12, and then later he will say, "Take it out." That is monstrous. I cannot understand the logic that makes him think that this is the way in which the House should spend its time on a Friday morning. This very important clause 12, which we are being asked to debate and then to take out of the Bill, seeks to impose statutory duties upon local authorities to enforce the provisions of the Bill--the provisions that the sponsor then wants to remove. The clause is a monstrous further imposition upon local Government. We are asking trading standards officers, who already have many important responsibilities--which many of us feel are not adequately carried out--to undertake additional responsibilities at a cost to the community charge of £1 million.
Only yesterday, Labour Members told us that the community charges were too high. I wonder how they will react when some authorities are capped in a few weeks' time. Will they vote for or against capping? This morning they are planning to increase the level of local Government expenditure--and at a time when trading standards officers cannot carry out all their current responsibilities. It
Column 811
is highly irresponsible to discuss a clause that will add to local Government expenditure and the responsibilities of local authorities.It is monstrous that the Bill's sponsor should waste so much of the time of the House asking us to debate clause 12 in detail, and then, when we come to debate amendments Nos. 133 and 134, ask us to take the guts out of the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman had had the courage to say that in Committee, my hon. Friend the Minister would have accepted the amendments, and the House would not need to spend time today discussing a Bill that its own promoter believes is highly defective.
Mr. Squire : As I said at the beginning of my speech on Second Reading, I have a long-standing interest in Lombard North Central, which employed me before I became legitimate--if that is what one does on entering the House--and I remain a financial adviser to that company. However, that interest is not relevant to the motion before the House. When we debate the amendments, I hope that I may have an opportunity to explain that, thanks to the Bill's promoter and to the amendments that have been introduced, the finance industry is now satisfied with the Bill, whereas it was somewhat anxious about its original form. I make that point now in case there is any suggestion that I am speaking on behalf of that industry.
As I also said on Second Reading, parts of the Bill are important and should be put on the statute book, whereas other of its provisions are unworkable. I have tabled amendments that seek to improve what I consider to be the unworkable provisions.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale), a sponsor of the Bill, on his fair summation. I share his view that the Bill deserves support, but unlike my hon. Friend, I find it difficult to approve of the Bill in its entirety--partly because of my experience of the finance industry over a number of years. My hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) legitimately raised the question of whether the House can be certain that no other part of the Bill similarly requires a money resolution, or some other form of resolution. That goes to the heart of our difficulty this morning. I am not too concerned about where responsibility for the error lies, with one exception that I shall mention later. Perhaps I was unfairly critical earlier of my hon. Friend the Minister, but we shall hear about that in a moment. However, I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members are united in wanting to avoid any repetition of such an oversight. To do so, the House must establish where the responsibility for the error lies. If the responsibility for this lies with my hon. Friend the Minister, it is arguable that the House should, today or on another occasion, instruct Ministers that they have a responsibility to ensure that a Bill's promoter--be it a Department or a private Member--is advised of any provisions in it that will require specific additional parliamentary action. It may be that ultimate responsibility for the oversight does not lie with my hon. Friend the Minister. If not, it must be that of the Bill's promoter. In that case, I should have an enormous amount of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman, having myself piloted a Bill through the House. Whatever the theory may be, it is impossible in practice for every right hon. and hon. Member to be wholly aware
Column 812
of the more arcane aspects of parliamentary procedure and to be able unaided to spot an omission such as that which we are now debating. Even if a right hon. or hon. Member is expected to be so informed, the Select Committee on Procedure should consider how Members of Parliament--and the problem particularly affects ordinary right hon. and hon. Members--can be provided with sufficient information to ensure that the need for a money resolution is identified early, so that the House does not need to waste time when it should be debating the amendments that I am anxious to reach.Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) : The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, and he approaches the problem rationally. It may be helpful if I explain the procedure that is followed. Before a Bill reaches the Floor of the House for its Second Reading, it goes before a senior ministerial committee considering the following week's business. It used to be the most senior committee below the Cabinet. At that level, all the procedural expertise of the Government is brought to bear. The Department concerned advises the committee as to whether it opposes the Bill, and other interests within Government point out any procedural flaws or shortcomings. From the very start, the Bill now before the House should have been subject to scrutiny at the most senior level below Cabinet. It is inconceivable that the Minister and his Department could not have known of the flaw.
Mr. Squire : The House will be most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who speaks with past ministerial experience. If one accepts the accuracy of his remarks--and I certainly do--then clearly the finger points at my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Industry and Consumer Affairs and at other Ministers. The principle is of such importance because, although the legislation in question is a private Member's Bill, it is still a public Bill of this House. What if the Government had produced non-controversial legislation--for example, the National Health Service and Community Care Bill, or even the community charge Bill--and at the eleventh hour or later, had told the House, "We're terribly sorry, but we're advised that the Bill needs a money resolution to cover a particular clause."? I can imagine what the response would be. The Minister concerned would be laughed out of the Chamber, and the House would be unable to take any decision, perhaps for one week, and be held up to ridicule--as would the Government, and, arguably, rightly so.
When a Bill leaves Standing Committee, it becomes the property of the whole House and the distinction between a Government Bill and a private Member's Bill is no longer relevant for virtually all purposes. That, for the benefit of the public watching or reading this debate, is the significance of the matter before us. As to the principle of what business should or should not be considered on the Floor of the House, during my 11 years in this place, it has been clear to me at least the kind of legislation that is conventionally considered by a Committee of the whole House--[Hon. Members : "The Patronage Secretary is here at last."] It is not often that my right hon. Friend the Patronage Secretary arrives in the Chamber in the middle of one of my speeches, but whether that is a good thing or bad, I am not sure.
One category of legislation that is usually considered by a Committee of the whole House is that involving major
Column 813
points of principle. Right hon. and hon. Members will soon be debating embryo research, when I understand that a key clause of that Bill will be considered on the Floor of the House. Many right hon. and hon. Members hold strong views on that subject, so it is right and proper that it should be debated in the Chamber rather than in Committee. Another category is legislation of constitutional importance.11 am
Mr. Viggers : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch (Mr. Squire) for intervening in his speech. Eleven o'clock on Friday is the normal time for statements and I see that the Patronage Secretary has just arrived. I am not sure whether he is the harbinger of a statement. Late last night I was given information for the first time that the Ministry of Defence has unilaterally broken off negotiations with the borough of Gosport in my constituency about the future of the Royal Naval armaments museum there.
The borough of Gosport wished to take over the armaments museum, which contains unique and priceless artefacts ranging from the time of Henry VIII through to nuclear weapons and weapons used in the Falklands campaign. That museum is of great importance to my constituents.
The point of order is that I was not informed in advance of that unilateral decision by the Ministry of Defence. Within the rules of order, for example under Standing Order No. 20, or in some other way, is it possible to seek to bring this important issue before the House?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is a request for a statement from a Minister. At this stage it is not possible for the hon. Member to use Standing Order No. 20 procedure, but I am sure that he will find other ways to raise that important matter. In the meantime, I am sure that what has been said has been heard on the Treasury Bench.
Mr. Henry Bellingham (Norfolk, North-West) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that I am one of the sponsors of the early-day motion on the Birmingham Six. In a Granada television drama documentary two weeks ago serious allegations were made about police brutality and the way in which the police had forced confessions out of the defendants. Yesterday, the deputy chief constable of the Yorkshire constabulary, who is conducting the inquiry into the now disbanded West Midlands serious crime squad, revealed that a number of police documents and notebooks have gone missing. Surely we should have a statement on that important matter today. If the Home Office does not clarify the issue there will be further doubt about its good faith in the matter of the Birmingham Six. Can we have a statement on that today as a matter of urgency?
Mr. Deputy Speaker : I give the same answer to the hon. Gentleman as I gave to his hon. Friend. He should seek other ways to raise that important matter in the House. I am sure that his comments will also have been heard on the Treasury Bench.
Mr. Squire : I hope that the House does not believe that I have finished my speech.
Column 814
I was talking about the second reason for Bills to be legitimately debated in a Committee of the whole House--major constitutional issues.Scottish devolution is one obvious example. If we were to have a Labour Government--however unlikely that is--I am sure that they would wish to discuss such as issue on the Floor of the Chamber, and no one would argue with the principle behind that. We would argue with the policy but not with the principle of taking it on the Floor of the House.
I do not argue that clause 12 is of such major or constitutional importance, but discussing it on the Floor of the House means that we seem to be acting out of mere convenience, rather than sending the Bill back to Committee for detailed examination, and I regret that, because it is not the right way for us to proceed.
Mr. Gale : My hon. Friend has said that this is a matter of administrative convenience. I am sure that the House wishes the Bill well and wants it to proceed. Therefore, this debate should be seen as a way forward rather than simply as a matter of administrative convenience. To take up his other point, there is a precedent for discussing financial matters in a Committee of the whole House. This subject is a financial matter and there is no reason why, as such, it should not be considered by the whole House.
Mr. Squire : I do not want to enter into an argument with my hon. Friend as I have much respect for him. However, my impression is that big issues--such as the Budget--tend to be discussed on the Floor of the House and others in Committee. I am happy to accept the principle behind what he says.
I regret that we are in this position today and I shall be happy when we come to discuss detailed amendments to the Bill.
Mrs. Teresa Gorman (Billericay) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
As the Patronage Secretary is present and as he has such important influence in this place, I should like to know whether he will make a statement about the Greenham Common situation developing across the road on College Green, where one person was camping out with a notice board at the beginning of the week and now there are more than a dozen people. Every time I go past on my way to my office and back again I am accosted by people who ask me to sign petitions. When I tell them that the matter on which they are crusading appears to be the community charge, and that I like it, they are extremely abusive to me.
This morning there is a large notice there asking drivers to toot as they go past if they dislike the community charge. Since that is taking place within the curtilage of this House, where we discuss national issues and where visitors to our capital gather in large numbers, is it appropriate that such a group of people should be allowed to remain on the green?
I have made inquiries and asked for the matter to be brought before the House urgently. I have been given to understand that by some freak accident private consent was given for one person to be on the green for a limited time. However, this is developing into a Greenham Common situation and we must deal with it urgently or it will bring the House into disrepute. Think of the noise that
Column 815
will be caused in the neighbourhood by the tooting of many car horns--by drivers who I have no doubt support the community charge.Mr. Deputy Speaker : I think that the hon. Lady is saying that the situation that she describes is taking place within the precincts of the House, and I shall cause inquiries to be made.
| Next Section
| Home Page |