House of Commons Hansard Debates for 2 Apr 1990

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of State has a duty, year by year, to review that benefit in the light of several factors. In recent years, we decided to concentrate help on less well-off families, poorer pensioners and the long-term sick and disabled, rather than uprate child benefit.

ATTORNEY-GENERAL

Committal Procedure

64. Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Attorney-General if there are any proposals for changes in the committal for trial procedure ; and if he will make a statement.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Nicholas Lyell) : A consultation paper on mode of trial procedure and committal proceedings was issued jointly by the Home Office and the Lord Chancellor's Department on 27 July 1989. A copy was placed in the Library, and the responses are now being considered.

Mr. Hughes : The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that there is widespread concern that the committal procedure should be improved. Does he share the view held by practitioners and many others affected that the present system is slow, ineffective, expensive, and thereby unjust? If he does, how soon will all those shortcomings be put right?

The Solicitor-General : The hon. Gentleman has obviously read the consultation paper. The shortcomings that he mentioned are among the many reasons why we put the matter out for consultation, to try to produce an improved procedure.

Crown Prosecution Service

65. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Attorney-General if he will make a statement about recruitment to the Crown prosecution service.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : The recruitment of law clerks and support staff is generally satisfactory. The recruitment of lawyers has improved steadily, with total numbers in post rising from 1,200 in 1986 to just under 1,600 today. There is an overall shortage of lawyers of about 20 per cent., but that is partly due to the complement being increased by 25 per cent. Recent improvements in pay, newly authorised changes in the career structure and a very promising legal trainee scheme will all improve the ability of the service to recruit and retain able lawyers.

Mr. Marshall : In view of events in north London recently, is my right hon. and learned Friend satisfied that the CPS is as competent as it might be?

The Attorney-General : I believe that my hon. Friend refers to an episode on a Saturday two or three weeks ago in Brent magistrates court, which I dealt with fully in a written answer on 23 March to the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) and in a Select Committee of this House. That was a regrettable case of human failure coupled with a deficiency in the system. Steps have been taken to remedy the system in that branch and to ensure that all other branches check their own systems.

Mr. Fraser : I acknowledge the very full explanation that the Attorney-General provided of that incident. If to

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reduce the number of people held in custody and prison numbers, we were to adopt the Scottish system of ensuring that all defendants go to trial within 100 days of being charged, when would the CPS be able to cope with such a time scale?

The Attorney-General : I do not think that there is any deficiency in the ability of the CPS to cope. Time limits of that order and in some cases, less are already in force. In Manchester a limit of 112 days between committal and arraignment has been in force since April 1988.

Director of Public Prosecutions

67. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Attorney-General when he last met the Director of Public Prosecutions ; and what subjects were discussed.

The Attorney-General : I last met the Director of Public Prosecutions on 27 March when we discussed matters of departmental interest.

Mr. Winnick : Will the Attorney-General confirm that incitement to murder is an extremely serious criminal offence? Can he explain why those in Britain who have in the past year called for the murder of a British citizen have had no action taken against them? Surely it is necessary for the law to apply to all.

The Attorney-General : Of course, the law should apply to all and of course, the offence of incitement to murder is extremely grave. The hon. Gentleman's question has been dealt with by me in an answer to a previous question in the House and has been debated on more than one occasion in another place. The Director of Public Prosecutions has publicly expressed his view that incitement to murder is always a very grave offence. He has drawn the attention of chief constables throughout the country to that view and to the context in which he expressed it, that is, the Salman Rushdie affair.

Mr. Latham : Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm, in relation to that matter, that there could have been no question, one hopes, of such a decision being taken purely on the grounds of political policy?

The Attorney-General : No decision is ever taken purely on the grounds of political consequence, if I heard my hon. Friend's last word correctly, nor is it ever taken on grounds of partisan interest. In this case, the decision was taken entirely on the basis that there was insufficient evidence of an admissible nature to give rise to a reasonable prospect of a conviction. That is the test which the code for Crown prosecutors imposes. It is only once that test has been passed that the question arises for any prosecutor as to whether the public interest requires a prosecution. That stage was never reached on that occasion.

Mr. Alex Carlile : Does the Attorney-General agree that perjury is always a very serious offence? Is he satisfied that the perjury committed to obtain entry into London's financial markets and the ownership of a major London business has been considered properly in connection with the Harrods affair?

The Attorney-General : Of course, I agree that perjury is always a serious offence. The hon. and learned Gentleman will know, of course, that by statute there are certain

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evidential tests to be passed for the prosecution of perjury. The Directors of the Serious Fraud Office and of Public Prosecutions issued a joint statement in which they made clear the reason why no prosecution was being brought for that or any other offence in the case of the Fayeds.

68. Mr. Dickens : To ask the Attorney-General when he will next be meeting the Director of Public Prosecutions ; and if he will make a statement on the criteria on which it is decided to bring forward a prosecution.

The Attorney-General : I frequently meet the Director of Public Prosecutions and I expect to do so again this week. The code for Crown prosecutors provides that the institution or continuation of criminal proceedings should depend upon the availability of sufficient admissible, substantial and reliable evidence to afford a realistic prospect of conviction and upon the public interest requiring a prosecution.

Mr. Dickens : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the public will welcome that clarification, because many hon. Members receive letters asking why prosecutions are not brought in certain cases? Will he assure me that those guidelines are under regular review?

The Attorney-General : The guidelines are reviewed by the Director of Public Prosecutions as the code is repeated as an appendix to the Director's annual report, which is made to me and published. I believe that, in this respect, they are sensible and right, but the Director is always open to suggestions for a variation of them. However, we believe that they have stood the test of time and are fair, sensible and provide a realistic and proper guide.

Ms. Mowlam : Does the Attorney-General believe that the code is working properly when it takes well over 12 months to review many cases involving police accidents? As he well knows, we in Cleveland have been waiting well over 12 months for a number of cases, about which we have already written to him. We have been told that there have been delays and problems in record keeping. We should like to know this, for both the police and families involved : does the Attorney-General consider that the DPP and the Crown prosecution service are doing the job adequately when people are having to wait that long for decisions?

The Attorney-General : I think that the hon. Lady would wish to provide a specific instance of what she regards as an unwarrantable delay. There are two types of criticism on the use of the state's prosecuting power : first, that it takes a long time for decisions to be made for a prosecution to be brought and secondly, that a prosecution has been brought hastily--either of which can lead to injustice. There must be a diligent examination of the evidence available ; where that evidence is insufficient, a request should be made to the police to see whether it can be improved. If it cannot be improved, then--not until then--the prosecution must be abandoned.

Trials (Delays)

71. Mr. Fearn : To ask the Attorney-General what is the average delay between committal and trial in central London, Maidstone, Bristol, Cardiff, Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham.

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The Solicitor-General : The average waiting time between committal to the Crown court and start of hearing is 17 weeks in central London, in Maidstone court administrators group it is 13 weeks, in Bristol it is 15 weeks, in the Cardiff group it is nearly seven weeks, in the Manchester group it is just over 11 weeks, in the Leeds group it is 14 weeks and in the Birmingham group it is 9.6 weeks.

Mr. Fearn : Does the Solicitor-General agree that there is even more delay when the person committed is in one of our prisons or remand homes?

The Solicitor-General : I should agree, not that there is more delay, but that the delay is more serious if someone is in custody. We take that very much into account when trying to ensure that such cases are brought on more quickly.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Vietnam

74. Mr. Boyes : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has given any further consideration to restoring bilateral aid to Vietnam.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke) on 12 March.

Mr. Boyes : It is a bit tricky to ask me to refer to something without giving me notice. Is not it a fact that Vietnam has done all that it can to meet the conditions set by the Minister before aid can be resumed? For example, there have been reforms in the economy, including the introduction of market forces and the lifting of some state controls. In those circumstances, how can the Minister justify withholding aid to one of the poorest countries in the world?

Mrs. Chalker : I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has not caught up with the previous oral Question Time and the debate that we had on the night of 27 March. We believe that Vietnam is seeking to put its economy in order, but it has not yet agreed even a shadow programme with international financial institutions and still has outstanding arrears of more than $133 million to the International Monetary Fund and $6 million to the Asian development bank. As soon as a shadow programme is in place, I hope that we shall be able to continue the work, which we have already begun, on possible aid projects for Vietnam.

Mr. Andrew Mitchell : Is not the resolution of the problem of the Vietnamese boat people closely linked to the need to bring Vietnam back into the community of nations? Will my right hon. Friend make that point when she next visits her opposite number in Washington?

Mrs. Chalker : My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are awaiting a reply from Foreign Minister Thach of Vietnam to the representations made by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office. As soon as we hear that the Vietnamese are prepared to take responsibility for their people, who are to return to

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Vietnam, we shall be in a far better position to continue our efforts. I shall make those points when I visit Washington later this month.

Mrs. Clwyd : Does not the Minister accept that the IMF report commends Vietnam for making every effort to meet its payments? Does not she agree that, despite its policy, it has taken out a commercial bank loan in an attempt to clear its debts? How can she justify Vietnam being the only one of the poorest 50 countries in the world to which Britain gives no aid? If she accepts, as she did in the debate on 27 March, that poverty is acute in that country and assistance needed, why does not she have the courage of her convictions and restore bilateral aid to that desperate country?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Lady heard me say in the debate in question that it was an IMF staff report. The report has not yet been accepted by the IMF board. I explained during the debate that there must be a high percentage of agreement. In the meantime, we hope that Vietnam will have a shadow programme, because that will enable us further to consider what we are already doing in terms of aid through non-governmental organisations for Vietnam. All countries that want to receive programme aid are being required by the donor community to have an economic recovery programme ; that is what is needed for Vietnam, as well as the resolution of the Vietnamese boat people problem.

Mr. Wells : Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a case for aid to Vietnam, which overarches the issue of the boat people? It is, after all, one of the poorest countries in the world, and a programme that invited the Vietnamese Government to change the economic framework in which other people were being asked to work would benefit that country and its neighbours very much.

Mrs. Chalker : I am aware of what my hon. Friend says, but certain elements are required by all donors. We have been examining possible routes for aid in preparation, not only on the basis of the NGO suggestions to us three weeks ago, but by looking at the United Nations development programme projects. Later this month when the Mekong committee meets again to discuss the water-sharing agreement for the Mekong basin, a United Kingdom observer will be present, and we shall see whether that will afford a route for assistance in future when a programme is agreed.

ODA Training (Women)

75. Ms. Abbott : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he is taking to ensure that data are collected on the percentage of women participating in Overseas Development Administration training provided in developing countries.

Mrs. Chalker : In-country training takes place under a variety of local arrangements, sometimes at the level of individual capital projects. In these circumstances precise statistics are difficult to gather, but we have already taken action to improve our data collection.

Ms. Abbott : Does the Minister accept that, given that as many as 80 per cent. of women in developing countries are involved in agriculture, it is important that any training involves and reaches women in those countries?

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Mrs. Chalker : I thoroughly agree with what the hon. Lady says, but providing training for women in some of these developing countries is not a straightforward matter, because very often it is the Governments of the recipient countries who nominate. As they nominate so few women, it is difficult to include them, but if the hon. Lady refers to a report published a year ago, entitled "Women, Development and the British Aid Programme", she will find a good deal of detail on the way in which we are helping such women.

Miss Widdecombe : What steps are being taken by Britain to encourage recipient Governments to nominate more women to development projects? Once the problem has been analysed, what practical steps can this country take?

Mrs. Chalker : We continue to press recipient countries to nominate more women ; it is a point which comes up in every aid discussion that I have with Presidents and Prime Ministers wherever I go in the world.

European Single Market

76. Mr. Alan Williams : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he has sought from the European Commission a comprehensive assessment of the effects of 1992 in the European Community on African, Caribbean and Pacific countries.

Mrs. Chalker : The United Kingdom has pressed for greater openness in trading in the EC, especially in the fourth Lome convention, to ensure that countries such as the African, Caribbean and Pacific states are able to benefit fully from the single market. The new Lome convention contains positive arrangements for 1992 on commodities that uphold traditional commitments and meet our single market objectives.

Mr. Williams : I accept the Minister's concern about this matter, but how does she explain that the DG-I study seems to concentrate on Asia and Latin America while excluding some of the poorest Commonwealth areas in the Pacific, the Caribbean and Africa? Why are we not making stronger representations for their inclusion?

Mrs. Chalker : I know that it is complicated, but the detail is as follows : DG-I is the directorate general of the Community, which looks after Asia and Latin America. Commissioner Marin, who looks after African, Caribbean

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and Pacific countries, heads up DG-VIII, which is a separate division. That also takes account of the assistance necessary for those countries under Lome 4.

Mr. Lester : Can my right hon. Friend tell me what progress is being made on abolishing European Community quotas for Caribbean rum?

Mrs. Chalker : The United Kingdom secured an agreement at the last Lome round, which will permit all Caribbean exports to the Community to come forward. In addition, national quotas are being phased out and we have a binding commitment after that, I think in 1995, to end Community quotas on rum as well. It was the United Kingdom action that achieved the start to the end of quotas on rum.

Sir David Steel : The right hon. Lady will be aware that the vast bulk of African debt is owed to European Community countries. Since 1992 will mean a leap forward in our prosperity in Europe, does she agree that that would be the time to take a collective initiative in the European Community to relieve African debt?

Mrs. Chalker : I expect that the Commissioner concerned will be putting a recommendation to the EC development committee at the end of May, when we shall consider it.

Mr. Foulkes : Does the Minister accept that the countries that will be harmed most by the advent of 1992 are those which are most vulnerable-- especially Mozambique and Ethiopia? Why has she not answered the question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West (Mrs. Williams) and said that she and her colleagues will carry out a comprehensive review to identify which countries will be harmed by 1992 and what should be done to help them?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the Overseas Development Institute inquiry reckons that, on balance, there will not be difficulties. We are, of course, totally prepared to look at the effect on Mozambique and Ethiopia and other poor countries. In the light of our considerable help to them, we are greatly aware of what needs to be done. There is no point in expecting trouble when the harmonisation of standards will mean that those countries that gain most through trade and not from aid will have just one hurdle to overcome instead of 12.

Mr. Boyes : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : I will take it later.

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