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Mr. Paul Ashwell
Mr. Speaker : I have granted a private notice question to the hon. Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Morris) because it concerns his constituent. It is not in order to raise the wider issue of the sale of prohibited goods to Iraq or anywhere else.
3.31 pm
Mr. Michael Morris (Northampton, South) (by private notice) : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what help the Foreign Office is giving to Mr. Paul Ashwell to release him from the Greek gaol and to assist him to return to the United Kingdom.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. William Waldegrave) : Mr. Ashwell has been regularly visited by the British honorary vice-consul in Patras. She has helped him to find legal representation and has provided him with additional food and bedding. She has also arranged for him to make telephone calls to his family. A member of the consular staff of the embassy at Athens will attempt to see him at Patras today.
Naturally, we hope that Mr. Ashwell's case can be dealt with quickly, and we have made that point to the Greek Foreign Ministry. Our embassy in Athens has sought an appointment to discuss Mr. Ashwell's case with the Ministry of Justice. Once Mr. Ashwell is released, our vice-consulate in Patras will help him to make arrangements for his return to the United Kingdom.
Mr. Morris : I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer in so far as it goes, but it leaves a few questions unanswered. First, why was Mr. Ashwell's bail application, which was made on Sunday or possibly Saturday, refused? Secondly, what evidence was given by United Kingdom representatives, in particular our diplomatic representative and the Customs and Excise representative, to emphasise the innocence of that trucker?
Thirdly, when Mr. Ashwell returned to the United Kingdom over Easter, having secured his load in the harbour in Greece, it appears that he was given clearance by Customs and Excise to return to Greece. Given the furore surrounding the case, why could not the load have been taken over by Customs and Excise in Greece, rather than my poor constituent having to return to Greece--apparently being used as a scapegoat for the whole of this exercise? Finally, why was my constituent told that any arrest that might take place would be a mere technicality?
Mr. Ashwell is a young, innocent trucker with a young family. He was doing a normal commercial job. If EC matters mean anything to this House, the two Governments should make it very clear that such an innocent party should be returned to the United Kingdom immediately.
Mr. Waldegrave : The House has shown today that it sympathises with my hon. Friend, as I do. My information is that my hon. Friend's constituent was advised by his lawyer not to apply for bail at this time, not that bail was refused. I will have that information checked, but my understanding is that Mr. Ashwell was advised by his lawyer not to go for bail yet, but that he should do so when he has the best chance of being granted it.
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As to Mr. Ashwell's innocence, Mr. Dunn of the Customs and Excise investigation service went to Patras and told the magistrate that, in his view, the driver did not knowingly commit any offence. I associate myself with his remarks.There is no question of Mr. Ashwell having been encouraged to return to Greece. It is just bad luck that he was there when the load was stopped.
As for a technicality, we must respect Greek law. Greece is a law-abiding country and a fellow member of the European Community. It is an offence there to import armaments illegally, and the Greeks must answer to their own courts as to whether or not Mr. Ashwell committed an offence. Our own Customs and Excise investigators do not believe that he did so knowingly.
Sir David Steel (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) : Does not the matter go further? It is not just a question of respecting Greek law. Does the Minister not agree that, if Mr. Ashwell had asked the British Government if it was all right to return to Greece, he would have been told, "Yes"? That was the answer given throughout. In view of that, do not the British Government have a particular responsibility--more so than usual --to act directly with the Greek Government to help Mr. Ashwell to obtain his freedom as soon as possible--even if it means sending the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to Greece to act as proxy for him?
Mr. Waldegrave : I hope that the consular service would exercise its full energies on behalf of any British citizen finding himself in a similar position. The service is certainly working as hard as it can on Mr. Ashwell's behalf. I reiterate that our own Customs and Excise has told the Greek authorities that it does not believe that Mr. Ashwell is guilty of any offence. Nevertheless, the Greeks have a legal procedure, as we do, and they must observe it.
Mr. Kenneth Warren (Hastings and Rye) : Will my right hon. Friend the Minister make it clear to the Greek Government that no charges of any kind have been preferred against anyone in this country in respect of the gun in question? Furthermore, the House has not been presented with any proof that the transported items are in any way connected with armaments.
Mr. Waldegrave : On my hon. Friend's latter point, there is little doubt that the load that Mr. Ashwell was unknowingly carrying was part of an armament. Whether or not Mr. Ashwell committed an offence in Greece is a matter for the Greeks courts. As I reminded the right hon. Member for Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale (Sir D. Steel), British Customs and Excise informed the Greek authorities that its view is that Mr. Ashwell did not knowingly commit any offence.
Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) : Why is it not apparent to the Greek authorities that Mr. Ashwell is the most innocent part in this whole murky affair? He certainly cannot be held responsible for all the lies, deceit and evasion that has come from Whitehall Departments over the past 10 days. The Greek authorities should immediately release Mr. Ashwell.
Mr. Waldegrave : The hon. Gentleman is wrong in his latter remarks. If he will specify which lies he is talking about, he would then have to answer for his accusations.
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As I said, Mr. Stephen Dunn of Customs and Excise made it clear that that authority believes that Mr. Ashwell is innocent of any offence. However, the Greeks have laws about the importation of armaments. So far, the Greeks have handled the whole matter expeditiously and with sensitivity, and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so.Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent) : Is it not a lamentable feature of the law, in whichever country it operates, that it tends to take a long time to go about its business? Is not that unfortunate lorry driver a notable example of the tiny handful of people who, in the course of any one year, find themselves caught up in the legal procedures of other European states? Can my right hon. Friend give a reassurance that, in discussions in the European Community, attempts will be made to devise a procedure whereby the Government or some other body stand bail for people abroad who are manifestly caught up in the toils of the law unnecessarily, so that they can be brought home?
Mr. Waldegrave : I sympathise with my hon. Friend's remarks, but so far the Greeks have acted quickly and fairly--and I pay tribute to them for doing so.
Mr. Michael Foot (Blaenau Gwent) : Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that quite a long time ago, when we had a decent Government in this country-- [Laughter.] --and when Lord Palmerston was in charge, he stated the principle, "Civis Romanus sum"-- [Interruption.] When someone was arrested in Greece he got him out very quickly. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not act in a similar way?
Mr. Waldegrave : The right hon. Member will not expect me to disagree that this country was best governed by the Whigs. He and I may agree on that. On the latter point my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has somewhat fewer battleships to deploy than Lord Palmerston did, and if we were to deploy them I do not think it would be against a free Greece. One of the right hon. Gentleman's greatest heroes helped to achieve freedom in that country and it is not a country that we now regard as one against which we are likely to deploy battleships.
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Mr. Anthony Beaumont-Dark (Birmingham, Selly Oak) : Does my right hon. Friend agree that we have a situation in which the most innocent people are likely to be and now are involved? Has the time not come for a full inquiry to be held so that it can be made crystal clear that, whoever else is at fault, at least one of the companies and the lorry driver in particular are not involved--
Mr. Speaker : Order. That is rather wide of the question.
Mr. Beamont-Dark : It was not very wide.
Mr. Speaker : I am sorry, but I have to judge that.
Mr. Beaumont-Dark : While respecting your judgment, Mr. Speaker, many people in this country think that one person who should not be a scapegoat is the lorry driver, who is expected to know what he is carrying when no one else, including the Department of Trade and Industry, knew what they were handling.
Mr. Waldegrave : I think that I have made our position clear. The hon. Member should have some understanding for the position of the Greek authorities. They have a law which says that it is illegal to import firearms without a permit, and it appears to them that that may have happened. We are explaining to them, through Mr. Dunn, who is on the spot, the the lorry driver is unlikely to have any guilt at all, and that is the best way to approach the matter.
Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) : Can the Minister, however, assure us that the British embassy in Athens will be putting pressure on the Greek authorities to recognise Paul Ashwell's unwitting role and his innocence and to release him immediately? In view of the information that we all now have, thanks to the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (Sir H. Miller) and others, should not some Government Department have been able to alert the company concerned in advance to ensure that Mr. Ashwell did not get into this invidious position in the first place? While we welcome this limited statement, when will we get a full statement on all aspects of that sorry saga, with some Minister accepting responsibility instead of trying to pass the buck to the companies concerned and allowing innocent lorry drivers to carry the can?
Mr. Waldegrave : The substance of the hon. Member's question has been answered and the rhetoric needs no answer.
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Points of Order
3.43 pm
Several Hon. Members : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : Order. We have an important debate today, which is timetabled. However, I shall take the points of order.
Mr. Alan Williams (Swansea, West) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This relates to the tabling of questions on the Iraqi gun episode. We have just seen how interdepartmental relationships are inexorably involved in that problem. On Thursday, I tried to table questions, one of which was to ask the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry when he first informed the Ministry of Defence that there might be--
Mr. Speaker : Order. The right hon. Member knows that he has been in communication with me about that matter, and that I have given him a ruling on it, and he cannot mention it in the Chamber.
Mr. Williams : I understood that that was exactly what I could do.
Mr. Michael Latham (Rutland and Melton) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw to your attention, in the interests of the rights of Back Benchers, the inherently ridiculous situation that took place today when two spokesmen were timetabled to answer questions at the same time-- 3.10 pm? Hon. Members had correctly tabled questions to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison). Questions to the Church Commissioners are important to many people in this country. It is absolutely absurd that questions to two spokesmen should be tabled at the same time. If it is not in your power to deal with the matter, Mr. Speaker, will you ensure that it is referred to the Procedure Committee?
Mr. Speaker : If the hon. Gentleman will look at the order of questions, he will see that it is made plain that, on Monday 21 May, questions to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster have precedence over those to the right hon. Member answering for the Church Commissioners. However, I accept that that does not look clear on today's Order Paper, and I will endeavour to ensure that it is made plainer to hon. Members when the Order Paper is next printed.
Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to raise with you an important matter, and I want your advice as to how we should proceed. It is in connection with the reported decision of the Secretary of State for Education and Science to accept that a child could be transferred, at the parent's wish and on racial grounds, to another school.
As you well know, Mr. Speaker, that decision has plunged local education authorities into great uncertainty and it seems to fly in the face of assurances by the former Secretary of State for Education and Science that the Government abhor racial discrimination. If the Secretary of State for Education and Science shows no sign
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tomorrow that he wants to make a statement on that important matter, will you, despite the time discrepancy, be prepared to consider another application for a private notice question?Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Speaker : Order. May I deal with one hon. Member at a time? Unless the situation has changed, I do not know whether it would be possible for me to do that. The matter was first brought to the attention of the Commission for Racial Equality on 2 April and the Secretary of State for Education and Science replied last week. It is a continuing matter.
Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh) : On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker. If there is to be a statement, will you ensure that it is a full statement including, the fact that at the same time as Mrs. Kearney was asking for her child to be moved a Muslim, Mr. Bosnena, asked for his two children to be removed--
Mr. Speaker : Order. If and when the Secretary of State for Education and Science makes a statement, I will certainly consider calling the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Jack Straw (Blackburn) : Further to the important point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden), Mr. Speaker. As the Secretary of State for Education and Science has already made a number of statements outside the House through his press spokespersons about his alleged position in respect of the matter, will you make it clear to the Secretary of State that it is an affront to the House for such statements to be made outside the House and not inside? We need to have the Secretary of State here to clear up the matter.
Mr. Speaker : The Leader of the House will certainly have heard what has been said, and the House knows my strong feeling on the matter. If statements are made on important matters that touch the interests of hon. Members, they should always be made here first.
Mr. Ian Gow (Eastbourne) : Further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Mr. Latham), Mr. Speaker. Is not the Order Paper clearly defective in stating that questions to my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) will start not later than 3.10 pm, when in fact there were no questions to him at all? May I also submit, Mr. Speaker, that your answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton is not satisfactory because you said in response to him that, week after week, there might be no opportunity to put questions to my right hon. Friend the Member for Selby. Surely that is not satisfactory. My right hon. Friend the Member for Selby answered no questions today, and from the ruling that you have just given, Mr. Speaker, it appears that that could easily happen in future as well.
Mr. Speaker : There are some Mondays on which questions to the right hon. Member answering for the Church Commissioners take precedence, but I cannot accept that the Order Paper today is defective. However it is misleading, and I shall ensure that in future it is made much plainer.
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Mr. Martin Flannery (Sheffield, Hillsborough) : Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, which was raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford, West (Mr. Madden) and for Blackburn (Mr. Straw). The press is full of the issue. The Minister has made a major point, which tends towards racialism and has been construed as such, and it is vital that he now clears the air and tells us something about the issue as soon as possible.Mr. Speaker : That is as may be. I repeat that I do not deny that it is a matter of considerable controversy in the press. I am sure that what has been said has been heard on the Government Front Bench.
Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : May I raise a point of order, Mr. Speaker, of which I gave your office and also the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) notice, relating to what occurred in the House on Friday? In the debate on the Licensing (Low Alcohol Drinks Bill) the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes spoke for 93 minutes. His was one of a number of long speeches. It appears that, unlike some hon. Members, the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes did not give notice to the answering Minister that he would not be present for the answer to his pretty lengthy speech.
This sort of behaviour does no credit to the House of Commons. That was assented to by the Chairman of the Procedure Committee, whose business it was. I must admit that, at 11 o'clock last Friday, I interrupted business to try to raise legitimate questions on the Defence Export Services Organisation secretariat in relation to the Iraqi Government. I took up about three minutes. Nevertheless, the fact remains that there was an attempt to speak for that length of time with the object of not having other business heard. I admit that I was No. 3 on the list, but ten-minute Bills are surely qualitatively as good as those that are drawn by ballot. There really should be no difference. I think that you assent to that Mr. Speaker. In the circumstances, besides the Procedure Committee looking at the matter, could you and the Leader of the House consider what is an absolute abuse of private procedures in the House?
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : Well, I will hear it.
Mr. Leigh : If I may say so, my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) is not only an hon. Friend but a personal friend. For greater accuracy, I have obtained a copy of Friday's Hansard, and I see that everything that my hon. Friend said was perfectly in order and was most interesting. He dealt in some detail with a report from--it is not a household name--Professor Li Wan Po--
Mr. Speaker : Order. I do not think that we need go into it all over again. On the general position, of course it is not possible for the Chair to put a 10-minute limit on speeches on Report stages of Bills. I confirm that the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown) was mostly in order. I have looked carefully at Hansard, and I see that on one or two occasions the Chair intervened, but the hon. Member was in order. As for being present for winding-up speeches, I hope that the whole House will stick to the long
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convention that hon. Members remain for winding-up speeches and hear replies to arguments that they and others have made in the House.Mr. Michael Brown (Brigg and Cleethorpes) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Of course I apologise to the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell), who was courteous enough to give me notice that he would raise this point of order. Indeed, I was not present for the intervention by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, but I had indicated to him, via the assistant Whip who was on the Treasury Bench, that I would be unable to hear his response.
You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that I have been in charge of some business that is currently before the House. I have been on the receiving end of some fairly long speeches--longer speeches than the one that I made on Friday. I have never made any complaint about any speech of whatever length, even when it has been to the detriment of the Bill with which I have been concerned. I simply urge you to bear in mind the fact that I do not believe that Mr. Deputy Speaker upbraided me for being out of order at any stage. I have listened to speeches on a certain piece of legislation for which I am responsible and the same Mr. Deputy Speaker was required to bring hon. Members to order on many occasions.
Mr. Speaker : Honour is now satisfied.
HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY BILL (ALLOCATION OF TIME) Ordered,
That the Report [19 April] from the Business Committee be now considered.-- [Sir Geoffrey Howe.]
Report considered accordingly.
Question, That this House doth agree with the Committee in their resolution, put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 80 [Business Committee] :
The House divided : Ayes 226, Noes 84.
Division No. 165] [3.55 pm
AYES
Alexander, Richard
Alison, Rt Hon Michael
Alton, David
Amess, David
Amos, Alan
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)
Atkins, Robert
Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony
Beith, A. J.
Bendall, Vivian
Bennett, Nicholas (Pembroke)
Bevan, David Gilroy
Biffen, Rt Hon John
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Boscawen, Hon Robert
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Mrs Virginia
Bowden, A (Brighton K'pto'n)
Bowden, Gerald (Dulwich)
Bowis, John
Braine, Rt Hon Sir Bernard
Brandon-Bravo, Martin
Brazier, Julian
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Cl't's)
Buck, Sir Antony
Buckley, George J.
Budgen, Nicholas
Burns, Simon
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Chris
Butterfill, John
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Carrington, Matthew
Chapman, Sydney
Chope, Christopher
Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)
Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Clarke, Rt Hon K. (Rushcliffe)
Colvin, Michael
Conway, Derek
Coombs, Simon (Swindon)
Cormack, Patrick
Couchman, James
Cran, James
Critchley, Julian
Currie, Mrs Edwina
Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)
Davis, David (Boothferry)
Day, Stephen
Devlin, Tim
Dickens, Geoffrey
Dicks, Terry
Dorrell, Stephen
Duffy, A. E. P.
Dunn, Bob
Durant, Tony
Dykes, Hugh
Eggar, Tim
Emery, Sir Peter
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