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T H EP A R L I A M E N T A R Y D E B A T E S
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE THIRD SESSION OF THE FIFTIETH PARLIAMENT OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 25 JUNE 1987]
THIRTY-NINTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 171
TENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1989-90
House of Commons
Monday 23 April 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
Mr. Devlin : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. When I entered the Members' Post Office this morning at 9 am, 50 per cent. of its floor space was taken up with cardboard boxes about the size of a large shoe box. Every hon. Member has today been mailed a plastic model of a foetus. Those grotesque models have been opened on behalf of hon. Members by our secretaries and research assistants, most of whom are female and some of whom have recently suffered miscarriages and other problems related to child bearing.
The packages have been a grossly offensive and distasteful demonstration. I hope that you will deprecate it, Mr. Speaker, and also give instructions to the Members' Post Office that, should it happen again, all such disgusting models should be sent back.
Mr. Cormack : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Alton : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : Order. Let me deal with the matter.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Speaker : Order. Please allow me to say something first. I have received numerous complaints about that matter. I have also received a letter from the Assistant Serjeant at Arms informing me that a large number of parcels were delivered, but they were all stamped, so they had to be taken in. Some of them were accepted by hon. Members and some were not and those will be sent back
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to the sender. Perhaps it would be appropriate for the Leader of the House, as Chairman of the Services Committee, to look into the matter and consider what action may be necessary in future if this sort of thing happens again.Mr. Alton : Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely it is the legitimate right of citizens of this country to lobby their Members of Parliament, and their rights must be upheld as well. In comparison with what actually happens to the unborn child, the medical model--
Mr. Speaker : Order. That is a point of order concerned with the merits of the matter, which can be debated later. What I have said is a fact. I have received a great many complaints from hon. Members and from their secretaries.
PRIVATE BUSINESS
Greater Manchester (Light Rapid Transit System) (No. 3) Bill
[Lords]
Happisburgh Lighthouse Bill
[Lords]
Considered ; to be read the Third time.
Oral Answers to Questions
TRANSPORT
Avonmouth Relief Road
1. Mr. Stern : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to announce the conclusions of the public consultation exercise over the Avonmouth relief road.
The Minister for Roads and Traffic (Mr. Robert Atkins) : I hope to be in a position to announce the preferred scheme in the late spring or early summer of this year.
Mr. Stern : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his reply, which shows the speed of action and consideration that
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Ministers are giving to that much needed project in my constituency. When my hon. Friend announces the preferred scheme, will he take the opportunity to announce also that the much disliked flyover that was attached to the original scheme has now been finally dropped?Mr. Atkins : I must reiterate how strongly we feel about the pressure that has been put on us by my hon. Friend, who does not cease to push the case for that relief road in his constituency. I cannot give him an absolute assurance at this stage, but certainly his views will weigh heavily with me and my inclination at the moment is that the flyover will not be necessary at the controversial place about which my hon. Friend is so concerned.
Mr. Sayeed : My hon. Friend will be aware that many planning and investment proposals await his decision. Is he further aware that many of my constituents will be pleased to hear that his Department is dealing with the matter with considerable speed?
Mr. Atkins : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his concern. He, like my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Stern), has pressed us on many occasions. He and his constituents will be pleased that we are pressing ahead as fast as we can.
Motorway Lighting
2. Mr. Cran : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received regarding the provision of lighting for the whole of Britain's motorway network.
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Cecil Parkinson) : We receive representations from time to time on lighting the motorway network. These have included the National Chamber of Trade, a small number of police authorities and Members of Parliament on behalf of their constituents. Some have come direct from members of the public. We also receive representations against the further lighting of the motorway network from other interested parties.
Mr. Cran : Does my right hon. Friend agree that, as it is widely accepted that the lighting of motorways reduces accidents, the capital cost of extending lighting to the whole of the motorway system, which is about £170 million, and the annual running costs of more than £12 million, are cheap at the price considering the cost to the National Health Service of treating accident victims? If my right hon. Friend cannot come forward with a comprehensive plan, will he propose a priority plan based on the worst motorway accident areas?
Mr Parkinson : My hon. Friend touches on an important point. At the moment we are targeting lighting on areas where major accidents occur. At present, about a quarter of the system is lit. We examine very carefully whether we should install lighting, for instance, on the M25 where there was a bad accident. The objectors are environmentalists who claim that in certain areas motorway lighting is intrusive and destroys the environment.
Mr. Fearn : Does the Secretary of State agree that the M6 has the worst black holes in terms of lighting? Does he
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further agree that lighting the whole motorway system is a priority and that the M1 lighting, which is white, should be changed to sodium lighting?Mr. Parkinson : I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's second point. If he will let me know about particular sections of the M6 that are dangerous and that do not appear to receive the right priority, I shall certainly consider them.
Mr. Waller : Before rushing into the wholesale lighting of motorways, which are among the safest roads in the country, will my right hon. Friend consider whether the not inconsiderable sum involved might be better spent on local traffic management schemes, which have been shown to have a good effect in reducing casualties?
Mr. Parkinson : It is precisely that balance that we are trying to strike, of using the money to the best possible advantage, so that we deal with the problem areas on motorways. However, not all the problem areas are on the motorways.
Highway Code
3. Mr. Andrew MacKay : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has any plans to revise the highway code ; and if he will make a statement.
Mr. Atkins : Aspects of the highway code are dated and need improvement. I am considering at present how that may be done.
Mr. MacKay : When my right hon. Friend revises the highway code, will he carefully consider whether motorway driving could be improved if it is emphasised to drivers that they should drive in the inside lane and that the middle and outside lanes are purely overtaking lanes, and that rear fog lights are supposed to be on when there is fog and not at other times, when they cause great danger and pile-ups?
Mr. Atkins : My hon. Friend, with his usual percipience, has addressed the two problems that cause most concern. I join him in urging people to stop using fog lights wrongly. The points that he raised about other matters are being given considerable attention. I should be interested to hear from anyone who believes that aspects of the highway code are outdated. We shall endeavour to take such advice into consideration when we carry out the review.
Mr. Tony Banks : When the highway code is revised, will the Minister consider inserting a section that advises motorists of the things that they should not do inside their cars? There are many things, of course, but I was thinking specifically of the ludicrous grinning cats that are stuck to car side windows and the dice and football boots that hang down over rear- view mirrors and must obstruct a driver's view, thus making driving much more dangerous.
Mr. Banks : And car phones, as my hon. Friend says.
Mr. Atkins : I share with the hon. Gentleman an obsessive hatred of dingle-dangles in the back windows of cars as they are distracting and, more important, they are unsafe.
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Mr. Higgins : May I applaud my hon. Friend's statement and suggest that in revising the highway code, he should clarify the position with regard to priority on roundabouts, making it clear that those already on roundabouts have priority over other traffic not on the roundabout even when it is approaching from the right of the car on the roundabout?Mr. Atkins : My right hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that as it is one of many aspects that I believe to be outdated ; and clearly we shall have to look at it closely.
Mr. Corbyn : When the Minister is revising the highway code, will he look into the serious problem of drivers with car phones who drive while using the phone, as that causes danger to other road users? It is dangerously distracting and causes accidents, yet the police do not seem keen on chasing and prosecuting such offenders. Will the Minister introduce regulations to prevent that dangerous practice?
Mr. Atkins : It is already an offence to drive a car while using the phone. It is a matter for the police to enforce. I take the opportunity provided by the hon Gentleman's supplementary question to remind people that it is wrong to use the phone while driving, particularly when devices can be fitted into cars so that the driver can have a conversation while keeping both hands on the wheel. It is an offence and I want it stopped, but it is up to the police to enforce the law.
London City Airport
4. Mr. Colvin : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what was the traffic in terms of movements and passengers carried through London City airport in the last year for which figures are available.
The Minister for Aviation and Shipping (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin) : The Civil Aviation Authority tells me that in 1989 there were 11,789 air transport movements, and 216,000 terminal passengers at London City airport.
Mr. Colvin : Has my hon. Friend seen that London City Airways, Brymon Airways and Air France have all recently announced additional services from London City airport to the continent? Does he share their confidence in the future of London City airport as an airport capable of handling up to 1.5 million passengers a year, taking a great deal of pressure off the south-east, securing the jobs of 500 workers in Newham and producing a shop window for the world's most environmentally friendly airliner, the BAe 146? Will he give us a hint on whether he is in favour of London City airport?
Mr. McLoughlin : London City airport is an exciting private initiative funded totally by the private sector. It could play an important role in providing services for passengers and business people, particularly in the light of 1992 and all the opportunities that the single market will provide.
Mr. Spearing : Will the Minister look into some of the statistics that were mentioned by the hon. Member for Romsey and Waterside (Mr. Colvin)? Is he aware that, in respect of the hon. Gentleman's claim that there is scope for 500 employees from the London borough of Newham, unfortunately a number of people have been made redundant at the airport recently, and the rosy picture that
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the hon. Gentleman paints awaits a public inquiry, so we should await the results of that inquiry before reaching a conclusion?Mr. McLoughlin : As the hon. Gentleman rightly points out, there is a public inquiry. However, most areas are pleased when airports are built because of the considerable employment that they bring. Everywhere where there are airports there are considerable developments and opportunities for local people and the travelling public.
Mr. Mans : Does my hon. Friend agree that in order to deal with increased traffic movements in the south-east, a decision needs to be taken soon about a fifth terminal at Heathrow?
Mr. McLoughlin : I note my hon. Friend's comments.
Mr. Snape : Does the Minister agree that London City airport would have been better planned as part of Britain's transport infrastructure rather than being left to the private sector?
Mr. Snape : Good. I am glad that the Minister does not confirm that. Will he then confirm that the taxpayer will be expected to pick up the bill for the much needed infrastructure that should have been there in the first place?
Mr. McLoughlin : We know that if ever the Opposition were in government, the taxpayer would constantly pick up the bill because the Opposition would seek vengeance on the private sector.
A13, Essex
5. Mrs. Gorman : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what immediate plans he has to improve the A13 in Essex.
Mr. Atkins : To the east of the M25, the trunk road section was improved in 1981 and is being further improved to accommodate the new Lakeside shopping centre. To the west of the M25, draft orders were published last month for a new dual three-lane road to Wennington.
Mr. Speaker : Is this right? The question refers to the A13 in Essex.
Mrs. Gorman : On behalf of my constituents I thank my hon. Friend for that extremely good news. May I persuade him in his busy schedule to take a ride down that road with me-- [Interruption.] and some of my colleagues one evening. We could show him that, although improvements have been made, at some of the busiest areas the traffic mostly stands still because the worst congestion is at either end of those improvements, particularly where the Blackwall tunnel crosses the A13. At night a journey from this building of under five miles can take three hours because of the congestion. Will he give an assurance that work on the two ends of the road will also begin in the near future?
Hon. Members : Be careful what you do in cars.
Mr. Atkins : I have, indeed, travelled that road on numerous occasions. I am fully aware of the anxieties that my hon. Friend has expressed. I am always happy to visit
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her constituency and those of my hon. Friends to see the problems for myself. But, as the hon. Member for Newham, North- West (Mr. Banks) and others said earlier, I must be careful what I do in cars with anyone.Mr. Squire : In welcoming the draft orders published by my hon. Friend recently, may I congratulate him on moving the line of the A13 further south, in response to representations made to his Department? Does he agree that with or without the construction of Universal city in my constituency, the need for construction of the A13 relief road is immediate? It cannot come too quickly for people in my constituency or for those who use the road every day.
Mr. Atkins : My hon. Friend presses his case persuasively. I am aware of anxieties about the new development there. I shall continue to react as favourably as possible to his anxieties and those of his constituents.
British Rail
7. Mr. Nicholas Bennett : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he next expects to meet the chairman of British Rail ; and what matters he proposes to discuss.
12. Mr. Foulkes : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he next intends to meet the chairman of British Rail ; and what matters he proposes to discuss.
Mr. Parkinson : I plan to meet the chairman of British Rail on Wednesday 25 April when we will discuss a variety of railway issues.
Mr. Bennett : I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. When he meets the chairman of British Rail, will he make it clear that BR's proposals to continue as a monopoly after privatisation are unacceptable to many Conservative Members? We seek a system whereby there would be some form of competition from a track authority so that others besides British Rail had an opportunity to provide a vital service to the public.
Mr. Parkinson : As my hon. Friend knows, the structure of a possibly privatised British Rail is under consideration. I shall take into account what he says.
Sir Peter Emery : When my right hon. Friend meets the chairman of British Rail, will he discuss with him the improvements necessary on a number of lines, particularly that from the southern railway down to Exeter, and the need for electrification of that line? If the whole of the track cannot be doubled, at least there should be more passing places in the area between Salisbury and Exeter.
Mr. Parkinson : As my hon. Friend knows, there will be a great deal of investment in British Rail over the next three years. It is part of a programme of capital investment that has been building up. I shall draw my hon. Friend's remarks to the attention of the chairman.
Mr. Strang : Will the Secretary of State discuss with the chairman the sense of shame felt by many people throughout Britain at the contrast between this Government's handling of the channel tunnel and that of the French Government? When will the Government recognise that the channel tunnel is a strategic national project and that we want the fastest possible link between the continent and the north of Scotland with the minimum
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of damage to the amenities of residents near the route? Is he aware that that can be done within the Government sector, funded and controlled by the Government?Mr. Parkinson : The Government learnt a lesson from publicly funded civil engineering projects when the Thames flood barrier was built. It was meant to cost £40 million and to be built in four years. It cost £435 million and was built in eight and a half years. The contract had to be renegotiated three times. We are about taxpayers' money, which is why we will not listen to the nonsense that the hon. Gentleman is talking.
Mr. Gregory : When my right hon. Friend next meets the chairman of British Rail, will he impress on him the fact that the Government are supporting British Rail to the greatest amount in real terms in a quarter of a century and that employees in many railway cities, particularly York, are frustrated that they cannot participate in the success of that great industry, although their colleagues in British Rail Engineering and Sealink have already had the benefit of privatisation?
Mr. Parkinson : I thank my hon. Friend for so typically speaking in support of British Rail while all we get from the Opposition is grossly ill -informed criticism. We have a huge investment programme and are backing British Rail to an extent that no previous Labour Government did. The problem is that we have a couple of innumerate Opposition Front-Bench Members who do not understand the figures.
Mr. Prescott : Is the Secretary of State aware that the annual report of Eurotunnel, published today, which I hope he will discuss with the chairman of British Rail, has shown that costs have almost doubled in three to four years and that the requirement that it should be privately financed and organised has meant that it has inadequate management and finance? Will he assure the chairman of British Rail that the Eurorail link will not face the same restrictions of that ideological requirement, that is, private control and private finance?
Mr. Parkinson : My earlier point, which the hon. Gentleman once again did not understand, is that if huge projects are carried out in the public sector, it is a recipe for gigantic cost overruns. If this was in the public sector we should be talking about costs, not doubling, but trebling or quadrupling. The sooner he realises that public sector
Mr. Prescott : Costs have doubled in three years.
Mr. Parkinson : I pointed out that the cost of the Thames barrier multiplied 10 times in eight years.
Mr. Gerald Bowden : When my right hon. Friend meets the chairman of British Rail on Wednesday 25 April, will he impress on him the importance of a channel tunnel rail link that serves the whole United Kingdom, not one that terminates at King's Cross and serves only the development of the King's Cross site?
Mr. Parkinson : I am afraid that my hon. Friend will not find a great deal of support for that proposal from the whole Opposition. We get many representations from northern Members who say that if the terminus were transferred to Stratford, it would be unattractive to those from the north and that King's Cross is the chosen site. That is partially, indeed only slightly, to do with the
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redevelopment of King's Cross and massively to do with connecting the whole United Kingdom to the channel tunnel.Mr. Foulkes : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Can you take my question separately as the Department of Transport informed me only two minutes before I came into the Chamber that it was to be taken together with question No. 7?
Mr. Speaker : I am afraid that I cannot do that.
Mr. Speaker : Because the hon. Gentleman had a letter from the Department. I have no idea when it was posted, but I would expect any hon. Member who has a question on the Order Paper to be present for Question time from the beginning.
ScotRail
9. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with Mr. Cyril Bleasdale, of ScotRail, about the electrification of the Glasgow-Falkirk-Linlithgow-Edinburgh line and the southern routes involving Mid-Calder, Carstairs, Fauldhouse and Shotts.
The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Michael Portillo) : I discussed the various proposals for electrification of lines between Edinburgh and Glasgow with the director of ScotRail during my visit to those cities on 14 March.
Mr. Dalyell : As I have an all-too-clear understanding of the finances involved and particularly of the difficulties of the Queen Street tunnel, may I ask whether there can at least be a preliminary discussion on the electrification of the Edinburgh-Glasgow line and the various merits of the routes when the Secretary of State meets the chairman of British Rail on 25 April? May we have that undertaking for Wednesday's meeting?
Mr. Portillo : As I said in my substantive reply, I discussed the matter on 14 March and I expect to discuss it again when I visit Scotland in May. The hon. Gentleman will know that the
electrification of the line between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Carstairs is already approved and a £12.5 million project is under way. The hon. Gentleman will also know that there will be a new service with class 158 vehicles from Glasgow Queen Street via Falkirk and Linlithgow to Edinburgh. I believe that British Rail may be considering whether the remaining sections on the Shotts line should be electrified--whether that would present a case for investment. No doubt I shall discuss those matters in May.
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