House of Commons Hansard Debates for 23 Apr 1990

Oil Discharges

11. Mr. Brazier : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to increase monitoring of oil discharges into United Kingdom seas.

Mr. McLoughlin : A second remote sensing aircraft has been added to the marine pollution control unit's resources, and the regular airborne surveillance patrols of United Kingdom waters to deter ships making illegal discharges of oil are being increased by more than 60 per cent. with effect from the beginning of this month.

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Mr. Brazier : That is welcome news and another example of the Government taking concrete action. Will my hon. Friend confirm that that monitoring will not go the way of the Control of Pollution Act 1974, whose water provisions were introduced by the previous Labour Government but never implemented?

Mr. McLoughlin : I am grateful for that information. The marine pollution control unit is one of many means by which the Government monitor discharges into the sea. The objectives of the Department of Transport are supplemented by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, and the surveillance of our coastal waters amounts to 6,100 hours a year. We also rely on pilots and people using the seas to report any discharges that they come across.

Dr. Godman : Will the Minister give the latest estimate for the incidence of oil-related traffic passing through the Minch? Will he inform us of the number of spillages in that waterway and the surrounding seas? I remind him that it is an extremely important area for west coast fishermen. Is his Department drawing up a plan for designated safe anchorages for stricken tankers?

Mr. McLoughlin : The consistent reduction in the amount of oil spillages round our coastline is due mainly to the determined attitude of the Department to make ship owners and masters aware that we shall not tolerate such discharges. In 1979 there were 530 incidents, but the latest figures--for 1988--show a total of 280.

Mr. Prescott : Has the Minister heard about the loss in the Solent of a Greek vessel which is discharging oil and dead Greek seamen? Is the Department assisting in the removal of that wreck and perhaps in the recovery of the bodies?

Mr. McLoughlin : Any accident that has been reported and any slicks that occur warrant action by the marine pollution control unit. I shall certainly investigate the accident to which the hon. Gentleman has drawn my attention.

A6(M) Bypass

14. Mr. Favell : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether a starting date for the A6(M) bypass has been fixed.

Mr. Atkins : Time will be needed for design work, supplementary orders and compulsory purchase orders. A second public inquiry is likely and then construction could start by the end of 1992.

Mr. Favell : Can it be true that there will be yet another public inquiry on this much-needed road to relieve probably the greatest traffic congestion in the north-west? Why do we spend so long taking evidence from people objecting to a motorway rather than simply getting on with it? The people in Stockport will go bananas at this news.

Mr. Atkins : I have considerable sympathy with my hon. Friend's views. I know that he has consistently pressed for the road to be built as a matter of urgency and I understand his worry. As long as there are objections,

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statutory procedures require a public inquiry. But I understand my hon. Friend's concern and I shall convey it to those who are in a position to do something about it.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : Does the Minister accept that it is absolutely crazy to have another public inquiry now, as the Department has already constructed a massive interchange in my constituency to link up with the proposed road? How can an inquiry consider the objective case for a different route when the Department has already built the interchange?

Mr. Atkins : There have been several amendments to the original plans which have produced objections. As long as there are objections, a public inquiry is required. As I said, I have considerable sympathy with the views, represented by hon. Members on both sides of the House, on the time it takes to have an inquiry and build a road. However, we are where we are, and I must obey the letter of the law.

Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowman : Does my hon. Friend accept that the constituents of Stockport are not the only ones who will go bananas if there is no assistance in relation to the M6? Is he aware that the prosperity of the north-west has grown so substantially that road congestion is extremely serious, not least in Lancashire and Morecambe, and that because of the dilatoriness of the county council, which refuses to make the M6 link a priority, matters are becoming worse? Will he ensure that that essential link is provided as early as possible, despite Lancashire county council?

Mr. Atkins : I always listen carefully to what my Member of Parliament has to say about the M6, particularly as I know the road well. I am cautious about making comments about motorway junctions that affect my constituency, because I am in a slightly difficult position as Minister for Roads and Traffic. My hon. Friend's general points about the M6 are well taken and I shall do all that I can to ensure that we are not delayed by the unnecessary tardiness of Lancashire county council.

Severn Crossing

17. Mr. Roy Hughes : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he has had recent discussions with county councils in south Wales concerning the second Severn crossing.

Mr. Portillo : The Government's recent announcement of a second Severn bridge has been widely welcomed by people on both sides of the Severn, and officials of this Department and at the Welsh Office are in regular contact with the county councils involved.

Mr. Hughes : Does the Minister appreciate that the county councils will require some clarification of the respective bids? On the information supplied to me about tolling, finance and the concession period, there seems to be confusion, not only among the tenderers but in the Department. Why should this difficulty have arisen? Can the Minister throw any light on it?

Mr. Portillo : The decision was clear cut ; there was clear daylight between the bids received. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman is thinking about the proposal by the Trafalgar House consortium for a £1 car toll. That also involved a £4 toll for heavy goods vehicles, which the hon. Gentleman would not have welcomed, and a 50-year concession

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period--well over double the period expected by the winning bid. It was a non-conforming bid which we did not accept. The bid that we accepted was superior.

Channel Tunnel

18. Mr. Gerald Bowden : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with British Rail regarding the funding of the channel tunnel high-speed rail link.

26. Mr. Cyril D. Townsend : To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with British Rail about the funding of the channel tunnel rail link.

Mr. Parkinson : Since November last year British Rail has been discussing the proposed channel tunnel high-speed rail link with Eurorail Ltd., with a view to forming a joint venture. The parties have kept me in touch with progress and I am now considering their detailed proposals.

Mr. Bowden : I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Will he take this opportunity to dispel the well-founded rumours in the press that the Government intend to change course and provide public money for the channel tunnel rail link? Will he deny that?

Mr. Parkinson : It would be illegal for the Government to provide money for the Channel tunnel rail link. That is expressly forbidden by section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987.

Mr. Townsend : Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his position? I take a different line from my colleague. Is not this a great national project which will bring enormous benefit to the north and north-west? Should not it be managed and financed by a partnership involving Government, business and British Rail? Would not that be in the country's long-term interest?

Mr. Parkinson : The proposed project would be a collaboration between British Rail and the private sector, which have been working together on the finances and have put a detailed proposal to us. We had a meeting with them last Thursday at which we fleshed out their proposals, which we are now carefully considering. I cannot say more than that.

Mr. Leighton : If the private sector falls down on the job and the Secretary of State has to inject about £1 billion of taxpayers' money, will he ensure that it is not just a straight subsidy but that taxpayers get a share of the equity and, subsequently, a share of the profits?

Mr. Parkinson : I prefer not to say any more than I already have. The proposals that have been put to us have been worked up over a period of months ; they deserve careful consideration and that is what they are getting.

Ms. Ruddock : Will not the Secretary of State admit, however, that there is no way in which the private sector can fund the environmental projects that will be required for such a rail link in the south-east and in the London area? Will he admit that he will have to find some method-- probably through Network SouthEast subsidies--to ensure that the rail link is financed?

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Mr. Parkinson : The position is perfectly clear : under the Channel Tunnel Act we are not allowed to build a subsidised rail line, because the ferries and airlines with which the tunnel will compete are not subsidised. That was the decision of Parliament. We are looking at a proposal that has been put to us, but we must bear the law in mind, even if Opposition Members do not want to.

DUCHY OF LANCASTER

Official Duties

57. Mr. Winnick : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster how many days in the last month he has spent on his official duties.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : I spend up to a quarter of my time carrying out my duties as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and as a member of the Government.

Mr. Winnick : That is most interesting. Why have the fortunes of the Government declined so dramatically since the right hon. Gentleman has held his current position? Could he arrange with the Prime Minister to keep him where he is at least until the next election when, as he admitted on Saturday, the Tories will face their toughest test yet?

Mr. Baker : The hon. Gentleman asked almost exactly the same question of my predecessor in 1986. He will know that we were behind in the polls then and we won the subsequent general election. We are behind in the polls now and we shall win the next general election.

Mr. Hind : My right hon. Friend will be aware that many of the tenants of the Duchy of Lancaster with whom he deals and on whom he spends a quarter of his time are constituents of mine. Recently I have visited quite a lot of them, and they have the same problem as I do in discovering what the Opposition intend to do about the community charge. Will my right hon. Friend, on behalf of the tenants, write to the Leader of the Opposition asking him what he has in mind?

Mr. Baker : I have tried, but the Opposition will not reply. The Opposition's campaign for the local government elections is wholly cynical and dishonest. They will not spell out their

alternative--their spokesman refused to do so on radio this morning. The hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham), who invented the roof tax, knows what the figures are, so why does not he come to the House and tell the country what they would be?

Local Government Finance

58. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster what representations he has had on the poll tax from tenants of the Duchy.

Mr. Kenneth Baker : I have had no representations from Duchy tenants either for or against the community charge.

Mr. Dalyell : Do Duchy tenants realise that year one of the poll tax is as nothing compared with the complications and difficulties of year two? Do they realise that 400,000 people in Strathclyde have not paid, and that £101 million is owning? Do they realise that that represents 23 per cent. of the total, and that my own, serious authority has had to

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provide money for self-defence courses in karate and other disciplines for officials who have to deal with the poll tax? Is the Chancellor of the Duchy doing anything to prepare people in the Duchy by providing lessons in karate, kwando or anything else?

Mr. Baker : That is a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I understand that self-defence lessons have been offered to all council employees, but are aimed primarily at benefiting social workers.

Duchy tenants will pay the community charge themselves as they did the rates previously. In 1990-91, the community charge for employees who have been occupying accommodation free of rent and rates will be met by the Duchy. This arrangement will be reviewed next year.

Mr. Robert B. Jones : If my right hon. Friend receives any representations from Duchy tenants will he tell them that they have to pay for the staff employed by Labour-controlled Lancashire county council? Lancashire has a lower population than the county of Hampshire, but it has 11,000 more staff.

Mr. Baker : My hon. Friend is right. The excessive expenditure by Lancashire county council this year is about £123 million. Such excessive expenditure is bound to lead to higher rates or community charges. The level of the community charge in Lancashire is due to the high -spending Labour authorities. The only way in which voters will get a lower community charge is by voting Conservative on 3 May.

Dr. Cunningham : Why does the Chancellor of the Duchy continue to try to con people in Lancashire and elsewhere? Why does not he look at the report on the study of the poll tax, carried out by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Rating and Valuation Association which shows that it is not overspending by councils that is the root cause of the problem, but the unrealistically low targets set by the Department of the Environment? The study also shows that in Lancashire, as elsewhere, losers outnumber gainers by more than 3 : 1 except among the 8 per cent. of the population who have the highest incomes, where the gainers outnumber the losers. It shows that families in the third percentage band of income have had increases in their local tax bills of more than £200. The right hon. Gentleman should recognise that he will get the answer to his fluster and bluster on 3 May, when people across the country will reject the poll tax, as they should.

Mr. Baker : Instead of the hon. Gentleman doing calculations which no one in the House is following, why does not he publish his proposals on the roof tax as it would affect his constituency? We have calculated what it would be there. According to the Halifax building society national house price survey, the average cost of a property in Egremont is £54,000. The roof tax on that would be £697, which means that single occupants would be £7.13 a week worse off. Why not publish the figures?

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PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION

Meetings

67. Mr. Allen : To ask the Chairman of the Public Accounts Commission when the Public Accounts Commission last met ; and what was discussed.

Sir Peter Hordern : The Commission last met on 6 March 1990, when among the subjects discussed were the annual report of the National Audit Office and the report of the Commission to the House.

Mr. Allen : The hon. Gentleman answering for the Commission knows better than anyone that he and his Commission have the power to report to the House. Will he confide in the House by telling us whether the Commission has discussed its next report to the House and, if so, what subject it covers?

Sir Peter Hordern : I cannot anticipate the contents of a report that has not yet been considered by the Commission, but we shall report to the House before the summer recess. Among other things, the report is likely to consider the pay of the staff of the National Audit Office and the appointment of auditors to the office so that we can ensure that its operations are conducted efficiently.

Mr. Gow : How onerous are the duties that fall upon members of the Public Accounts Commission? Is there a vacancy on the Commission? If so, would not my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames) be a most excellent member?

Sir Peter Hordern : I give way to no one in my admiration of my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Mr. Soames). There is strong competition for membership of the Commission and I regret to have to inform the House that there are no vacancies at present.

Mr. Skinner : Will the hon. Gentleman look into the question of how much the members of the Tory Cabinet have benefited from pushing through the poll tax legislation? Will he confirm that the Cabinet benefits to the tune of more than £20,000?

Sir Peter Hordern : That is an interesting question, but it has nothing to do with the Public Accounts Commission, nor even the Public Accounts Committee, so it is not for me to answer.

Mr. Conway : If my hon. Friend is examining how public moneys are disbursed, will he consider the allocation of funds to Her Majesty's Opposition to see whether they need extra resources to work out the cost of their roof tax proposals for my constituents?

Sir Peter Hordern : That is another interesting question, but, again, one which is not a matter for the Public Accounts Commission. However, the Public Accounts Committee may wish to consider it.

Mr. Dickens : When my hon. Friend meets the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, will he do what he can to ensure that the Committee discusses in great depth the morality of using public funds to underwrite stupid decisions such as allowing the Strangeways prison riot to continue into a fourth week?

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Sir Peter Hordern : I am sure that the right hon. Member for Ashton- under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon), who is in his place, will have heard that question. Whether it is one that he will wish to consider is a matter for him.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Closed Circuit Television

68. Mr. Allen : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will bring forward proposals to allow hon. Members to have a closed circuit television link to the Chamber.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Vaz) on 21 February, when I said that the Select Committee on Televising of Proceedings of the House had not so far been persuaded of the case for allowing individual hon. Members to receive in their offices a clean television feed from the Chamber. The Select Committee will, during the next few weeks, be undertaking a full review of the televising experiment and no doubt this is one matter which will be considered.

Mr. Allen : Is not it nonsense that hon. Members do not have the choice of either a sound link or a televised link from the Chamber--a choice exercised freely in many other countries without detriment either to attendance on the Floor of the House or to understanding of the Chamber by hon. Members?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I hesitate, even for the sake of the hon. Member, to describe as nonsense a proposition that has been rejected unanimously by the Select Committee on Televising of Proceedings of the House, and a proposition for which there has been limited demand, for understandable reasons. For example, the provision of a television feed in many places round the Palace would be distracting. Secondly, some hon. Members think that it would discourage enthusiasm for attendance in the Chamber. Thirdly, it would be expensive. The Select Committee will be looking at the matter during the next few weeks and hon. Members have been invited to represent their views to the Committee between now and then.

Mr. Latham : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that if an hon. Member wants to know what is going on in the Chamber, all that he has to do is to walk through the door--[ Hon. Members :-- "Hear, hear."] --and that if he wants to take part in the discussion, all that has to do is stand up and catch Mr. Speaker's eye? [ Hon. Members :-- "Oh!"]

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The popular reaction shows that it is easier for me to answer yes to the first part of the question than to the second.

Mr. Grocott : Is not technology overtaking us? It is only a matter of time before cable or satellite will provide a direct feed to anyone who has a television set. Sooner of later, we might as well catch up with the technology and provide a feed to every hon. Member.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The hon. Gentleman is well placed, as a member of the Select Committee, to advance that argument when we consider it in the weeks ahead. We shall see how he gets on.

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Refreshment Tent

Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council how much it cost to re-erect the refreshment tent on the Terrace of the House ; how long he expects it to remain there before it is struck once more ; and if he will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : As I advised my hon. Friend on 5 February, the total cost of dismantling and re-erecting the marquee, including storage charges, will be about £13,500. The marquee will be used until Christmas.

Mr. Greenway : Will my right hon. and learned Friend keep the marquee on the Terrace permanently, so that £13,500 is not wasted every year? When it is there permanently, will he ensure that on St. George's day, today and in the future, the rose of England is on sale to hon. Members, so that more can wear the rose of England on the feast of St. George, as they should?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I am not sure whether the latter part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question arises from the main question. On St. David's day there were many daffodils in the House because Welshmen were well able to provide them for themselves.

The relevant Committees have considered the marquee and have concluded that it does not make sense to leave it in place throughout the year.

Mr. Tony Banks : As a drink or a cup of tea on the Terrace is a most desirable occupation, it might deflect hon. Members from taking their places in the Chamber. Will the Leader of the House consider making access to the Terrace easier for members of the public so that they, too, can enjoy the facilities that are available to Members? [Interruption.]

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I get the impression that the hon. Gentleman's enthusiasm for broadening access is not widely shared by hon. Members.

Mr. Favell : Does the tent go up and come down to circumvent planning regulations? Is it entirely desirable that the House should be doing that?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : No. My hon. Friend has quite the wrong suspicion. It is being erected and then brought down to comply with planning regulations.

Mrs. Dunwoody : As this operation costs such an inordinate amount of money, would not it be possible to leave the marquee in place and to spend the money that would thereby be saved on decent accommodation for the Refreshment Department staff, who are still far too lowly paid and who work in conditions that would not be acceptable elsewhere?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have to tell the hon. Lady, as I have told the House on many occasions, that the pay and conditions of service of Refreshment Department staff, as of others, are intended to be kept in line with those that apply in the rest of the labour market. The issue is to be considered again by the Commission very shortly. We must bear it in mind that the cost of taking down the marquee and re-erecting it would have to be set against the cost of maintaining and repairing it while in situ. It would be difficult to choose between the two bills.

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Banking Services

71. Mr. Butler : To ask the Lord President of the Council what consideration he has given to the provision of banking services within the Palace of Westminister.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : Longer-term planning for the phase 2 parliamentary building includes consideration of the establishment of banking facilities either in the Palace itself, in the new buildings, or as part of the retail units planned for the area. In the short term, the Accommodation and Administration Sub-Committee is considering a proposal to establish cash-dispensing machines into the House.

Mr. Butler : Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that this would be a most convenient facility for hon. Members? Although the Post Office provides a cheque-cashing facility, once in a rare while hon. Members wish to bank money as well.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I take my hon. Friend's point. That is why the wider facility is being considered. It is important to press ahead with the provision of cash-dispensing machines in the building at as early a stage as possible, as we hope to do.

Mr. Skinner : Has the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), put in a bid for Barclays bank to help pay for the £250,000 that he gets for working two days a week for it?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : My right hon. Friend the former Chancellor of the Exchequer is fortunate in not being the responsibility of this former Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is well able to speak for himself and justify the services that he gives to his present employers.

Mr. Jacques Arnold : In view of recent developments in electronic banking and the like, will my right hon. and learned Friend give some thought to inviting the major banks and building societies to install automatic telling machines in the House?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : That raises rather wider questions that might have some application in certain circumstances. I am not prepared to go further than that at this stage.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that it is not only banking services that Members need in this place? There is a dearth of good shops anywhere in the area for buying simple groceries. We should be concerned about the difficulties faced by the staff and all those who work in this place, apart from the 650 Members. They are a long way from any shops where they can get the necessities of life-- [Interruption.] It would be extremely helpful for the staff and Members if some form of simple grocery shop were provided.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : Contrary apparently to the view of hon. Members, I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend's point. I think that there is a strong case to be made for extending the facilities of that sort that are available in or near the Palace of Westminster. That is one matter which I have already placed on and shall keep upon the agenda.

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DUCHY OF LANCASTER

North-east Lancashire

59. Mr. Pike : To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he has any plans to visit north-east Lancashire.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Kenneth Baker) : I visited eight towns in Lancashire and Cheshire last Wednesday. I have no immediate plans to visit north-east Lancashire.

Mr. Pike : As one of the architects of the poll tax, were the right hon. Gentleman to visit north-east Lancashire he would find that 80 per cent. of the people are losers. Does

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