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Salmond, Alex
Sillars, Jim
Skinner, Dennis
Spearing, Nigel
Watson, Mike (Glasgow, C)
Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
Williams, Alan W. (Carm'then)
Wilson, Brian
Winnick, David
Wise, Mrs Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Tellers for the Noes :
Mr. Frank Haynes and
Mr. Martyn Jones.
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Question accordingly agreed to.Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 10
Encouragement of women, members of minority racial groups and disabled persons to take advantage of opportunities for certain work etc.
Without prejudice to paragraph (a) of section 2(4) of this Act or to any enactment prohibiting discrimination (within the meaning of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 or the Race Relations Act 1976), Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise shall each, in exercising its functions, promote--
(a) such actings by any employer as are lawful by virtue of section 48(1) of the said Act of 1975 (facilities for women only or for men only to train for, and encouragement for them to take up, work not ordinarily done for the employer by persons of the sex in question etc.) or 38(1) of the said Act of 1976 (corresponding facilities and encouragement in relation to members of particular racial groups) ; and
(b) actings by any employer--
(i) to afford access to facilities for training for disabled persons which would help to fit them for particular work in his employment ; or
(ii) to encourage disabled persons to take advantage of opportunities for doing such work.'-- [Mr. Lang.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
7.15 pm
Mr. Lang : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : With this it will be convenient to consider Government amendments Nos. 1 to 4, 15, 22, 23 and 27.
Mr. Lang : In Committee, we considered amendments to give Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise a role in developing employment opportunities for women, the disabled and ethnic minorities, and I said then that there were technical problems with the amendments. In particular, the wording risked infringing the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Race Relations Act 1976. I also said that I was wholly in sympathy with the sentiments underlying the amendments.
The promotion of equal opportunities is a firm plank of Government policy, and our commercial prosperity will increasingly depend on unlocking the potential skills of all groups in society. I am happy to commend the new clause, which we propose to insert between clause 15 and clause 16. It will oblige Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to promote positive action by employers to increase employment and training opportunities for women--and, indeed, for men--for the disabled and for racial minorities in occupations in which such groups are under- represented.
The new clause may seem complicated, but it is important to ensure--
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : As one who unequivocally supports the need to have the concerns of women and others in training and employment at the forefront of the Bill, I point out to the Minister that the board of the Renfrew enterprise company has no woman among its 18 members. I hope that the hon.
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Gentleman will join me in voicing regret over the total omission of women from such a board. Is that likely to be the case for other such companies?Mr. Lang : It is a matter for each local enterprise company to decide who will constitute its board. I should like to see them choose women, but those women must be chosen on merit and not as a tokenist approach. We are responsible for appointing the directors of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, and I am happy to be able to point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are three women on the board of Scottish Enterprise. I believe--I will correct this later if I am wrong- -that there are two women on the board of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Therefore, as far as it is within our power to make such appointments, we have demonstrated our commitment fairly substantially. I share the hon. Gentleman's wish to see more women coming forward to such public positions, and perhaps local enterprise companies will find suitable opportunities for them to do just that.
The new clause will oblige Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to promote positive action by employers to increase employment and training opportunities for women--and men--the disabled and members of racial minorities in occupations in which such groups are under- represented. It is important to ensure that the clause does not detract from the provisions against discrimination in employment and training in the Sex Discrimination and Race Relations Acts. The new clause builds on those provisions, giving Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands enterprise a duty to promote positive action by employers when exercising their functions. Amendments Nos. 1 and 3 are technical amendments, consequential on new clause 10 and, in the case of amendment No. 3, on amendment No. 4.
Amendment No. 4 deals with a matter that we discussed in Committee. There, an amendment was tabled to extend the role of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise--carried forward from the Training Agency- -in encouraging increases in training opportunities for women, girls and the disabled to ethnic minorities. I put on record then my agreement with what was intended. Existing race relations legislation, of course, makes it illegal to discriminate against racial minorities in such matters. This amendment goes beyond prohibiting discrimination to empowering Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to take positive action. There was some difficulty with the original amendment proposed in Committee because the use of the term "ethnic minorities" does not tie in with existing race relations legislation. The present amendment gets round this by referring directly to the Race Relations Act 1976.
I turn now to amendment No. 15. It is at present unlawful for the Training Agency to discriminate on grounds of sex or race in exercising its functions. It is clearly right that, once the Training Agency in Scotland is subsumed within Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, sexual or racial discrimination in the exercise of their training functions should also be unlawful, on the same basis. That is what the present
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clause 16 sought to achieve by reference to provisions in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 and the Race Relations Act 1976.But there are technical problems with the rest of the clause as it stands. I am advised that it does not bring Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise within the ambit of all the relevant provisions in the 1975 and 1976 Acts. It has also been overtaken by amendments to the 1975 and 1976 Acts made by the Employment Act 1989. The present amendment therefore gets round those problems by simply inserting references to Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise in the 1975 and 1976 Acts. Therefore, I hope that the amendment will be acceptable to the House.
Amendment No. 2 relates to women and girls and to disabled persons, and makes it clear that the provisions of clause 2 include all types of training. Clause 2(4)(a) empowers Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to encourage increases in the opportunities for training that are available for women, girls and the disabled. In Committee, Opposition Members suggested the addition of the words "at all skill levels". As they will recall, we saw some technical problems with that amendment. It might have been taken to imply that, if any training opportunities were encouraged, it had to be done at all levels, but, as hon. Members who served on the Committee will recall, I was happy to take on board the spirit of the amendment.
It is certainly desirable that not just the quantity but also the range of training for women and the disabled should be developed wherever practicable. We have also tabled an amendment to extend this provision to ethnic minorities. Indeed, we expect Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to act as catalysts in developing training opportunities for all sections of the community, but I recognise the necessity to pay particular attention to the needs of women, the disabled and racial minorities.
It it already implicit in the clause that training may be at a variety of levels. All that is required is a clarification, and that is what the amendment is designed to do. It makes it clear that arrangements may include all types of training.
Amendment No. 22 arises from points made in Committee by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe), who is unfortunately not in her place. In response to an amendment that she moved, I undertook to bring forward amendments requiring the Secretary of State to have regard to the principle that equality of opportunity should be promoted as between men and women, in making appointments to the boards of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 fulfil that undertaking.
At the time, the hon. Lady said :
"Since I came to the House I have heard various employment Ministers reiterate their commitment to equal opportunities, but that never seems to result in action. We still await the day when the Government will act all by themselves, without needing to be spured into action by someone else."-- [ Official Report, First Scottish Standing Committee, 1 February 1990 ; c. 178.]
It is sad that the hon. Member for Maryhill is not in her place now because she pressed these matters in Committee effectively and articulately. When she reads the report of our proceedings in Hansard, I hope that she will agree that, in advance of tabling this amendment, we have
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demonstrably had regard to that principle in making our appointments to the designate boards of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise.The Scottish Development Agency at present has only one female member--I believe that she is the first it has ever had. As I said in reply to the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) a moment ago, three of the 10 ordinary board members of Scottish Enterprise will be women, as will two of the 10 of Highlands and Islands Enterprise. There cannot be any suggestion of tokenism in those appointments. Those women have all been appointed for their personal qualities and track record and for the individual contributions that they can make. They are unquestionably there on merit. I hope that that will be reflected in the appreciation of Opposition Members for what I believe is a sensible move. Amendment No. 23 is consequential, relating to amendment No. 22. I turn now to amendment No. 27. We have been keen to remove barriers facing parents who want to return to work, or to take up training before returning to work. In the Budget, we announced tax relief on the assessed value of workplace nursery places. Within employment training, we make available a special allowance of up to £50 a week for child care to lone parents. In that connection, we took a power in the Employment Act 1989 to exempt discrimination in favour of lone parents in connection with training from the restrictions of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975.
The precise wording of section 8(1) in the 1989 Act refers to training arrangements under section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973 or to any training otherwise provided. Of course, training by Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise could count as training otherwise provided, but I think it best to put the matter beyond doubt by inserting in the 1989 Act a specific reference to training arrangements by Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. I am sure that that will meet with approval on all sides, and I commend the amendment to the House.
The amendments are not controversial and do not change anything in previous legislation in any policy sense. However, they heighten the importance of avoiding discrimination whether on the grounds of sex, race, ethnic origin or disability. The amendments will improve the Bill. I am grateful to the Opposition Members who contributed to the debate that resulted in these amendments, which I commend to the House.
Mr. Worthington : I wonder whether the Minister has noticed how much more comfortable it was to talk sense instead of what we heard in the previous debate. I am sure that he found it comfortable to make his second speech, and I hope that that will encourage him to speak in such a vein more often.
We made suggestions along these lines in Committee. As the Minister has said, a lot of the work on this was carried out by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mrs. Fyfe). We very much welcome what the Government have done and their proposals. Those who represent ethnic minorities in the Glasgow area have conveyed to me their pleasure at such a specific reference.
The importance of new clause 10 is that it will give women, disabled people and members of the ethnic minorities the levers that might be necessary in the future if at any time they feel that Scottish Enterprise and
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Highlands and Islands Enterprise or--let us not forget about this--the local enterprise companies are not doing enough in that respect. The united wish of the House that action should be taken on that will now be enshrined in legislation. Therefore, we welcome the provisions.Mr. Foulkes : I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) will welcome equal opportunities for ethnic minorities in Glasgow and its district. However, the specific point that I want to make relates to training opportunities for the mentally handicapped.
A week ago last Tuesday, I had an opportunity to visit Seabank and Henrietta street in Girvan, one of the Quarriers homes. I was greatly impressed by the work being done there, as I am by the work done by the Quarriers homes throughout Scotland, and the way in which they are adapting to different challenges. The home is responsible for providing accommodation and other help for a relatively small number of mentally handicapped adults.
7.30 pm
The people at the home raised with me the question of the length of training, in particular, in Maytag, the Maybole enterprise training scheme, which is now developing and expanding to Girvan, on which there have been mentally handicapped people. They find that the training opportunities for the mildly mentally handicapped are useful, but with one reservation. They feel strongly that, in order that mildly mentally handicapped people, often slow learners, may benefit fully from the training opportunities available, they should attend the course for two years rather than just the one to which they are limited under the current regulations.
I have written to the Secretary of State for Scotland--I expect that my letter will find its way to the Minister's desk, as these things do--urging him to consider changing the current regulations to allow mildly mentally handicapped people to go on the course for two years so that it should be as valuable to them as it is to other people in a year.
I had hoped that the amendments would allow some flexibility to enable training organisations such as Maytag to keep such trainees for two years rather than one, but at the end of his speech the Minister said that none of the amendments changed the structure of training, and that is slightly disturbing. If the Minister replies, I hope that he will say that there is some flexibility so that once the amendments are accepted Scottish Enterprise or local enterprise companies will be able to allow organisations such as Maytag some flexibility in the training of mentally handicapped people. If, after completing a course, such people are to compete on reasonably even terms with the rest of society, they should be able to go on the courses for two years.
I told the representatives of the Quarriers Home and some of its residents that I would press their case with the Minister, and I am glad to have the opportunity to do so on the Floor of the House. I hope that the Minister will be able to say that there will be flexibility in the schemes to allow for that need and that they will not be as rigid as at present.
Dr. Godman : I want briefly to echo the plea made by my hon. Friend the Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes) about the training needs of those
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with mental handicaps. The Minister will recall that, in Scottish questions a couple of weeks ago, I asked him about the sheltered employment scheme which has found sheltered workplaces for some 350 people. In his reply, the Minister spoke warmly of that scheme. I pointed out that, in Strathclyde region alone, between 14,000 and 15,000 people are, sadly, offlicted with mental handicaps to a lesser or greater extent. My hon. Friend made a sound plea when he asked that the special needs of such people should be taken into account where training provision, within the parameters of the Bill, must be given special attention. He is right to say that those with mental handicaps require systematic training, which, by its very nature, needs to be much more extensive than training given to people without handicaps. Given the number of people in Scotland who are handicapped, it is essential that they be found training places and employment. The sheltered employment scheme can only be a part of the employment opportunities offered to some people.All the work of industrial psychologists in that area and those working in ergonomics shows that, with the right kind of training, mentally handicapped people can perform functions as adequately as those who are not handicapped. It is the quality of the training and the trainers that is important.
I am pleased to see that lone parents are to be given financial assistance for child care provision when they undertake training, but what of a couple with small children who are suffering unemployment? Do the Government intend to give the same assistance offered to lone parents to couples with immature children?
Mr. Lang : The final point raised by the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) would probably be more appropriately addressed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security, and I shall make sure that the matter is drawn to his attention.
It is encouraging that, in such difficult and sensitive matters, there is a degree of agreement across the House on how we approach them. For example, the general approach as embodied in our "Care in the Community" proposals, although we may disagree on some aspects, has gained acceptance on both sides of the House and it embodies the recognition of the need for a new and sensitive approach to the problems of those with disabilities and handicaps, whether mental or physical.
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) for his welcome for the amendments. I have not yet seen the letter from the hon. Member for Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley (Mr. Foulkes), but no doubt I shall in due course and I shall reply to it. It is hard to generalise on the right period of training for mentally handicapped people, because the degree of handicap varies. I note that he was primarily concerned on behalf of Maytag, with its reservations about the mildly mentally handicapped, the need for flexibility and the possible extension of training facilities from one year to two.
We have made provision for greater flexibility for employment training which might go some way to cover that point. There are, as the House will know, some central guarantees on which the Government insist for the provision of training schemes. In the case of employment training, one of the requirements is that training should be
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open to everyone who has been unemployed for a certain period, with a guaranteed place for those aged between 18 and 25 who have been unemployed for between six and 12 months.We require that all training will enhance the job prospects of those taking part. We need a guarantee on minimum nationally set levels of training allowance, and we need a guaranteed acceptance of health and safety and equal opportunity standards. But that apart, there is flexibility. Not only do we allow for flexibility but we are keen to see it and we emphasise the importance of it in the kind of training places on offer, in the length and context of training, and in the payments to providers of training.
I hope that the needs of the mentally handicapped will not be overlooked as the new Scottish Enterprise proposals come into being. As clause 2(3) emphasises :
"Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise shall each, to such extent as it considers appropriate, make arrangements for the purpose of--assisting persons to train".
Clause 2(4)(a) refers to
"arrangements for encouraging increases in the opportunities for training that are available to women and girls or to disabled persons".
This important sector is receiving increasing attention in Government and in the wider community, and I am sure that the new clause will enhance the chances of further recognition of it. Question put and agreed to.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 11
Monitoring of training for employment
Where the functions of Scottish Enterprise, or of Highlands and Islands Enterprise, mentioned in section 2(3)(a) or (b) of this Act are carried out through an agent or are delegated to any person, the body in question shall have the duty (which shall not itself be delegated) of keeping under continuous review the suitability and adequacy of any training provided by that agent, or as the case may be by that person (or his agent) in discharging those functions.'.-- [Mr. Lang.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Lang : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : With this it will be convenient to take new clause 4-- Training Inspectorate --
Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise shall together establish and fund an inspectorate, and shall place at its disposal the services of such officers or servants as each body considers appropriate, with the duty of monitoring the quality of the training and the efficacy of the arrangements made under section 2(3) of this Act.'.
Mr. Lang : The Government have consistently demonstrated their determination to maintain and improve training quality, and this new clause is concerned with that. We have introduced the approved training organisation concept, and rapidly implemented it, first for youth training and in its turn for employment training.
Mr. Worthington : Will the Minister give way?
Mr. Lang : I have said nothing controversial yet, but I shall give way.
Mr. Worthington : How many approved training organisations are there in Scotland?
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Mr. Lang : I shall give the figure in my winding-up speech. In awarding approved training organisation status, and in monitoring it thereafter, the Training Agency verifies that the training provider meets comprehensive quality standards, covering assessment procedures, calibre of training, design and delivery, quality of management and staff, adherence to equal opportunities and health and safety requirements, and financial viability. In addition, the training standards advisory service provides an independent advisory service that has as its main role to assess the overall quality of training provision and to undertake evaluations of individual projects.Mr. Worthington : Will the Minister confirm that there are six people in that unit?
Mr. Lang : Yes, I will confirm that, and that is a sufficient number of people to carry out the work efficiently and effectively. We have repeatedly made clear our commitment to ensuring that training quality will continue to be a key consideration once the new bodies of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise come into being. New clause 11 makes this explicit. It expressly places a duty on Scottish Enterprise and on Highlands and Islands Enterprise to monitor training quality wherever that training is provided by a local enterprise company or, as is expected invariably to be the case, by training providers subcontracting with the local enterprise company. For self-evident reasons, this duty to monitor is not in itself to be delegated, and amendments Nos 16 and 17 to clause 17 are consequentially needed.
No such provision was included in the Bill as originally drafted, for the simple reason that no specific provision of this kind has been thought necessary heretofore to empower the monitoring of training quality. The training standards advisory service operates under the general terms of section 2 of the Employment and Training Act 1973, as amended. The equivalent provision in this Bill is in clause 2. I have been convinced that training quality is so important and so central to what we are seeking to achieve through the Scottish Enterprise initiative that it is desirable on policy grounds to make specific reference to it in statute.
I recognise that new clause 4 is similar in its intention. Had it been possible, I should have been happy to support it, as I have no significant difficulty with it in policy terms. However, it is technically defective, so I have judged it best to table a version that avoids such technical difficulties. In the circumstances, I hope that the hon. Member for Clydebank and Milngavie will be content not to press new clause 4 but will support new clause 11.
Mr. Worthington : I listened to the Minister with great interest, but what he said about his new clause was not congruent with my reading of it. I hope that he will take up that point. New clause 11 says :
"Where the functions of Scottish Enterprise or of Highlands and Islands Enterprise are carried out through an agent or are delegated to any person, the body in question"
which I have interpreted as meaning the local enterprise company--would be responsible for monitoring the quality of the training. That is just good management by that company. We are proposing an independent body to monitor and supervise the quality and performance of the local enterprise company. It is not adequate to ask the
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local enterprise company to monitor its own performance, and that would not meet our point, as it would be part of the contract that such companies are likely to have with Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise.7.45 pm
I can go further than that. The new clause is unattractive because there is a hand-washing element to it. It says that it is solely the reponsibility of the local enterprise company to monitor the quality of training rather than that it is the responsibility of Scottish Enterprise or Highlands and Islands Enterprise. The Government are washing their hands of training and are stepping back from it, expecting it to be done by other bodies. Public control of training, already limited, will decrease.
Our new clause would set up a training inspectorate because we are concerned about quality. That concern has arisen because of the Government's performance with their current schemes, a performance that has repeatedly given rise to public concern. The Government are changing the arrangements, but the direction of that change gives us cause for further concern, as an independent commercially driven body--the local enterprise company--will be responsible for training. The Department of Employment has run training in an appalling way. I speak about the Department of Employment because that training was, as it will continue to be, instigated by the Department. In Committee and on Second Reading, the pretence that there is Scottish Office control was simply deceitful.
Dr. Godman : Will the training inspectorate, as outlined in the new clause, not only assess the quality and efficacy of training programmes undertaken within local enterprise companies but have an advisory role? Will the people in the inspectorate have sufficient skills and knowledge to advise the local enterprise companies of the training that should be carried out in their areas?
Mr. Worthington : Our new clause is not ideal. Part of the problem is that, if we wanted to set up a genuinely independent inspectorate, outside the two enterprise bodies, such a move would be outside the scope of the Bill. To stay in order, we have tabled a new clause setting up a body that is inadequately independent but is the best possible within the terms of the Bill.
We are concerned that training is to go under the wing of local enterprise companies and will disappear from public view. On Second Reading, I described the situation as the laundering of public money. Money will come from the public and will be spent by private concerns. There is widespread anxiety that trainers whose central motivation is profit will be attracted into the field. There is a straight correlation, because the more that one spends on training, the less profit will go to the company. Therefore, there has to be some check, and at the moment the Training Agency does not achieve a good level of scrutiny. The Minister seems to be sanguine that there are six people to monitor quality throughout Scotland. That is simply not adequate.
I look forward with great interest to learning how many approved training organisations now exist in Scotland. When I last asked, I was told that we had hardly reached the first stage--setting up such organisations. It is not even as if training will be under the control of the Scottish Office, or under the control of a public body in Scotland, as we were promised. Control remains with the
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