House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Apr 1990

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the householder will reduce some waste and ensure some recycling, but the most effective way of dealing with the problem is to ensure that waste disposal authorities re-sort all household waste. I was much impressed, when I went to Greater Manchester waste disposal authority's experimental plant at Radcliffe, to see how far it had gone in being able to sort household rubbish into materials that can be reclaimed. I understand that that has also been done in Birmingham and elsewhere, although almost all the projects are at the experimental stage and are not yet commercial. It will be very good for the environment if we can set up plants that will sort out paper and plastics, sort plastics into various grades, separate glass, aluminium and other tins and produce a residue that will make a good compost.

The Government take the view that they will encourage these recycling initiatives by making landfill sites expensive. The new clause does not deal with that and we could go much further. First, we should make sure that there is a guaranteed price for recycled materials. That would be one of the most helpful things that the Government could do. There is no point in encouraging the collection of paper, whether by individual groups or by a sorting process, unless there is a market for it. That applies to all other waste materials.

We must also ensure that waste disposal plants are reasonably close to the points of collection. Greater Manchester council has been collecting tin cans for some time, but almost half the profit is lost in the cost of transporting them to Hartlepool, which has the only detinning plant in the country. The Government should look carefully at encouraging waste disposal authorities or the new companies that are to be set up to look at ways in which they can put in sorting plants. Such plants are expensive, but they are the best way to ensure that all collected rubbish is recycled. That brings me to the question of the size of unit that is required for waste disposal. Some areas are far too small and do not benefit from the economies of scale that are available with a large-scale plant and not enough plastic, glass or tin will be produced if the separating plant is too small. I was horrified to find that one of the local authorities in my constituency was talking about going to the Minister to see whether it could be separated from the rest of Greater Manchester to become a disposal authority. We have heard about one man and a dog. Stockport would be far too small to reach the required standards. Greater Manchester is just about big enough to deal with the matter. I support the approach of the Select Committee of looking at regional waste disposal and I am certainly not in favour of having it carried out by individual local authorities.

It is important to reduce the amount of waste through better packaging and the Government should encourage local authorities to go in for close collection sorting to that they can reclaim everything from rubbish and can also make sure that there is a market. In the meantime, we should continue with household sorting, although it is not the long-term solution. The long -term solution is to make sure that the disposal authorities can reclaim virtually everything from the refuse that they collect.

Mr. Paul Marland (Gloucestershire, West) : I want to take part in the debate because I am anxious to discover the extent and overall effectiveness of new clause 30 now

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and in the future in connection with the emission of harmful gases, whether they are those that we know of now or new ones that will be discovered.

There is enormous concern throughout the British Isles about the release of chlorofluorocarbons into the atmosphere. Consumer pressure has done much to reduce that emission because one of the major sources of CFC gas was aerosols. Insulated containers and wall insulation in houses and refrigerators are another gigantic source of CFC gas and attempts to reduce CFC emissions from those sources have so far been small and unco-ordinated. Can the clause be used to regulate against the release of CFCs in the future when technology is available to extract them from insulation materials?

I am concerned not only about CFCs but about the gas emissions from the dumping of cadmium and mercury batteries that are used in Walkmans and transistor radios. They currently go to landfill but technology exists to clean them up before they are dumped. It is not now a cost-effective exercise, but perhaps it will be in future. Who knows what other gases and substances we may learn about in the future.

It is beyond doubt that CFCs, halons and related chemicals are causing massive depletion of the ozone layer and giving rise to a substantial increase in the global greenhouse effect. I and other hon. Members attended a briefing meeting on Thursday chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Sir H. Rossi). We heard first hand from Joe Farman of the British Antarctic survey, who was the leader of the team that first reported on the thinning of the ozone layer, about the damaging effect of the build-up of ozone-depleting gases and the effect that that will have on the planet.

Mr. Farman's presentation was technical but nevertheless chilling about the long-term effects. The ozone layer shields the earth's surface from damaging ultra-violet radiation. A weakened ozone layer could mean millions of extra cases of skin cancer, cataracts and possibly infectious diseases. Enormous damage would also be caused to the natural environment, ranging from substantial losses in crop yields to potential collapse of the marine food chain. Climatic disruption from the greenhouse effect will bring havoc to the world's agriculture, coast lines and forests, and resulting stresses will threaten to fracture the economic, social and political structures that are necessary for global security and development. We in the developed world have a responsibility to do something about that. My speech deals mainly with CFCs, but in a few years who knows what other gases could be emitted from the earth to deplete the ozone layer. One of the main characteristics of CFC gas is that it is an efficient and inexpensive propellant. Friends of the Earth told us at Thursday's presentation that 62 per cent. of CFC released into the atmosphere comes from aerosols--or it did, because consumer pressure has substantially reduced the amount of CFC that aerosols give out. Obviously, that is of tremendous advantage in saving the ozone layer.

Some 12 per cent. of CFC emissions are from solvents or cleaners, but there, too, consumer pressure is bearing down on the industries producing those materials and doing something to try to solve the problem. The remaining 26 per cent. comes from refrigerators and foam insulation. As the first two sources that I mentioned of CFC emission are reduced, the 26 per cent. emission will become much greater. What is being done about that? Some county councils are milking refrigerators of the

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coolant which circulates inside the appliance and which is a mixture of lubricating oil and CFC. Gloucestershire county council was one of the first to do that, and all credit to it for that. However, it is a haphazard and piecemeal operation.

It costs Gloucestershire county council about £3.50 per fridge but the council has no idea what happens to the CFC gas when it has been extracted. It does not know whether the contractor takes it around the back of a shed and releases it into the atmosphere. CFC does not smell, cannot be seen and is not harmful to humans. The source of refrigerators for Gloucestershire county council is the county tip to which people bring fridges voluntarily. The council receives only a few of the refrigerators that are destroyed in Gloucestershire out of the many hundreds that are scrapped every month. The frightening aspect is that the coolant in a refrigerator represents only 20 per cent. of the total CFC within the appliance. The remaining 80 per cent. is contained in the insulating foam around the cabinet. What is being done about the technology for removing the CFC from that foam? The technology is in its infancy, but I hope that help is on the horizon. As hon. Members will know, I am the parliamentary adviser to the British Scrap Federation. Through the federation I have met one of its leading members, the Bird Group, which is working with Lindamanns, a highly respected West German company, and ICI to try to solve this problem. The company has taken the trouble to familiarise the Government with much of its work and a great deal of interest has been shown in the project, not only by my hon. Friend the Minister for the Environment and Countryside, but by other Ministers.

Squeezing CFC gases out of insulation foam is right at the sharp end of metal recycling technology and, because of the nature of the objects handled, and the need to contain the gas at all stages, the operation is expensive. The value of recycled metal from a scrap refrigerator is about £1.60, and the CFC is virtually worthless. On present calculations, the shortfall between the value of the saleable material and the cost of safely processing the fridge and transporting it to the site is about £18 per unit.

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The Gloucestershire county council has demonstrated its willingness to underwrite such a project in a modest way, but the whole project of containing CFC from foam will be put in jeopardy and progress towards widespread CFC recovery will be pitifully slow unless it is made mandatory, or there are financial incentives for industry, or legislation enacting the "polluter pays" principle is strengthened. I was interested to hear my hon. Friend the Minister say that new clause 26 can provide incentives for those involved in recycling if it will not stand on its own feet, so I hope to see something helpful. Public pressure to encourage such action is building up, and that is backed by many in the industry. In virtually every high street, shops selling new refrigerators urge people to dispose of their old refrigerators properly rather than just dumping them. The problem is growing and is becoming more embarrassing for the Government. One third of CFCs is in Government-controlled equipment--blood banks, munitions stores, mortuaries and so on. A recent report from the Department of Trade and Industry estimated that our CFC bank--the CFCs in existing working refrigerators

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and so on--exceeds 100,000 tonnes. The report also said that the disposal of CFC-containing waste will be a problem for

I ask that the Department of Trade and Industry identify itself closely with this important project for reducing CFC released into the atmosphere from foam and insulation material. Secondly, I am anxious to learn whether new clause 30 can be used to implement legislation for the control of emissions of CFC and other noxious gases, odours and substances when the technology is available to control that.

Mr. Richard Livsey (Brecon and Radnor) : I am aware that time is short and that we want to move on to other matters, but I should like to place on record some aspects of my party's attitude to new clause 30 in particular and others of the new clauses grouped with it. New clause 30 incorporates many aspects of the Control of Pollution Act 1974, but a whole host of powers in that Act have yet to be invoked, 16 years after it received Royal Assent. Eleven of its sections, starting at section 6 and ending at section 103, have not yet been used. It is extraordinary that there has not been the will to invoke those sections to protect the environment. One hopes that, if this Bill becomes an Act, there will be a greater will to invoke its sections.

We support new clause 20, which requires the Secretary of State to have regard to the need to promote a reduction in the volume of waste, and new clause 26, which gives incentives for recycling and includes financial incentives and guaranteed prices for recycled products. I draw the attention of the Minister to a serious incident in my constituency. Some 10 million tyres were dumped near a village called Heyope and then set on fire by an arsonist in the autumn. This released 11 toxic materials into water courses and only the efforts of the National Rivers Authority in stemming the pollution prevented a major pollution incident. Nevertheless, 4 million water consumers downstream in the west midlands would have been affected if the fire had got out of control. The drinking water from the river Teme would have been undrinkable.

This serious incident arose because far too many tyres were dumped. Tyres should be recycled and made into other products such as rubber matting. It is no longer acceptable to dump tyres in the countryside. One hopes that the DTI and the tyre industry will clean up their act. We believe that there should be tax measures to make recycling more attractive. This could improve our balance of payments by reducing our imports of paper pulp and aluminium. Making all bottles and jars reusable or recyclable as soon as possible would also help.

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The law should insist that the industries concerned provide recycling facilities, and that is true of the tyre industry. Local authorities should be able to give a rebate for every tonne of waste that is recycled. There should be legislation to encourage the use of packaging designed for recycling. We would welcome any such measures arising out of the Bill.

New clause 28, which deals with waste disposal authorities, is linked closely to amendments Nos. 241 and 242. I agree with much that the Minister said about this. New clause 28 would undermine the establishment of arms- length companies to separate waste disposal and regulation, both of which are performed by the counties in many parts of England.

Amendment No. 68 refers to Scotland and Scottish authorities, but the Welsh Select Committee recently published a report on waste disposal and waste disposal authorities in Wales, which are different from those in England, because the districts in Wales are the waste disposal authorities. We should like to think that we are further down the road in waste disposal because we have three voluntary regional groupings in Wales which are there to advise.

It is significant that the Welsh Select Committee recommended that the three regional groups be given statutory powers that would cover licensing, monitoring and technical expertise. However, it felt that planning should remain the responsibility of district councils in Wales, because that is where democratic control and accountability reside. It is particularly important that it should remain there because if waste disposal sites are imposed there will be a grave undermining of the democratic process and communities will feel powerless to protect their areas.

Amendments Nos. 115 and 116 refer to imports and exports. The House will recall the way in which toxic waste was hawked around half the world by the Karin B, and will thereby appreciate the need for tight controls. It is rather alarming that special waste imports, which are classified in the European Communities as toxic and hazardous wastes, increased from 3,000 tonnes in 1981-82 to 80,000 tonnes in 1987-88. In my party's view, all wastes originating in OECD countries should be disposed of in the country of origin and should not be exported to other countries.

Mr. Robert B. Jones : In many areas in the Netherlands the ground is not suitable for the disposal of hazardous and toxic wastes. Does the hon. Gentleman still think that there is no case for international trade? Secondly, does he agree with the European Community view that such trade, provided that it is properly controlled and professionally dealt with, is valid and acceptable?

Mr. Livsey : I do not agree with the argument that lies behind the hon. Gentleman's second question. We have surely reached the stage at which a stop should be put to the trade in toxic and hazardous wastes. I accept that special provision may have to be made for countries such as the Netherlands where there is a high water table. My colleagues and I have no wish to see imports of toxic wastes directly to landfill sites in the United Kingdom. Such imports should be stopped immediately. They are certainly not in the interest of the environment of the United Kingdom.

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Mr. Bellingham : My remarks will be directed to new clause 58 and amendments Nos. 241 and 242 which, in effect, were tabled by the Select Committee on the Environment. First, I declare my interest as a parliamentary adviser to the National Association of Waste Disposal Contractors and an unremunerated managing director of a recycling company.

I endorse wholeheartedly the comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) on new clause 58. He summed up eloquently and succinctly the arguments that were advanced in Standing Committee and those that were presented by the members of the Select Committee. The Minister will be aware that Select Committees, Standing Committees, and other bodies have strongly favoured the concept of regional groupings.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West referred to wide variations throughout the country, and we know that with 190 waste disposal authorities there will be a great deal of disparity. There will be tremendous differences in their practices and standards. We know that many of the old WDAs have not filed their waste disposal plans. It is disgraceful that 150 have not done so. When representatives of the Institute of Wastes Management gave evidence to the Select Committee they said that the variation in performance is enormous. They said that in some areas the function of waste disposal has been downgraded to the extent that it has become a Cinderella service that is undertaken by a man and a dog, as it were. In the better authorities the function is taken much more seriously. I shall not rehearse those arguments.

Under the Bill, the Secretary of State will have considerable default powers if it is found that an authority is not doing its job properly. What happens, however, if the entire system starts to go wrong? What happens if what the Select Committee anticipates, and what the Standing Committee anticipated, takes place and there is a wide variation in performance? It would seem that there is a serious regional diversity in performance and professionalism. Surely the Secretary of State should have the reserve powers that are being sought. We are not saying that the Secretary of State must have such powers as a matter of course. We are saying only that there should be reserve powers in future if things do not work out properly and if this excellent Bill, which will shortly become an Act, does not provide a structure for waste disposal of the sort for which we hope.

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Perhaps the reserve powers will not be necessary, but why run the risk of having to introduce another Bill in two, three or four years time, or whatever? I anticipate that the Select Committee will re-examine the matter. If it comes to the conclusion that the Bill should have had fall- back provisions, it will say, "What a wasted opportunity". The new clause is not asking for very much, and it is not enough to say that everything will be included in a White Paper and considered.

Apart from waste disposal, we must consider the regional structure of Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution and the responsibilities of the National Rivers Authority. We must consider also the drinking water directive and how it will interface with and impinge upon various other matters.

We have a golden opportunity to amend the Bill to give the Secretary of State reserve powers. I hope that my hon.

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Friend the Minister will recognise that in Committee there was unanimous support for the concept. That position was shared by the all-party Select Committee. When the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs considered the matter only the other day, that was also clearly its view.

I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to use this opportunity to give a firm undertaking that the Government will reconsider the matter and introduce a new clause in the other place that will put things right.

My amendment No. 316 would enable a waste regulation authority, when it has determined whether someone is a fit and proper person to hold a waste management licence, to say that that fact should be a material consideration in any other application for a waste management licence for any other waste regulation authority. The issue was discussed in Committee and the Minister said, in effect, that he was extremely sympathetic to my argument. We have many national waste disposal companies and each one may operate in many different parts of the country. Obviously they will be operating under the auspices of several different authorities. It is for those authorities to assess whether a company is a fit and proper person. Waste regulation authorities will be fairly hard pressed on the bureaucratic and administrative fronts. A national company that has been accepted as a fit and proper person by, perhaps, 20 waste regulation authorities may not be accepted by one or two others. The amendment seeks to provide that the waste regulation authorities should take account of the fact that another authority has already carried out the exercise of determining whether a company is a fit and proper person and has reached a positive conclusion. It is a modest amendment.

In Committee, my hon. Friend the Minister asked what would happen if an individual operated a number of different facilities. I recall that he mentioned a mobile plant or incinerator at a landfill site. That consideration can be taken care of--I wish that I had thought of this at the time--by the licence conditions. The facility will have to be operated by someone who is competent to do so. I do not think that the argument that my hon. Friend advanced in Committee holds water. I hope that he will reconsider the matter along the lines of the undertaking that he gave in Committee and accept my modest amendment. I had the devil's own job trying to find my way around the amendment paper because of the number of new clauses and amendments and the way in which they are spaced out. I have been pulling out my hair most of the afternoon

Mr. Robert B. Jones : Balding.

Mr. Bellingham : I am not bald yet, although I do not have the same amount of facial hair as my hon. Friend.

Government amendment No. 97 refers to so framing

"the terms and conditions as to avoid undue discrimination in favour of one description of waste disposal contractor as against other descriptions of waste disposal contractors."

Why do we need the word "undue"? Surely there is no need for it. If it is not deleted, that surely means that the Government accept that there will be some discrimination. I urge my hon. Friend the Minister to deal with that point. It is a matter of considerable concern that the amendment is faulty. If the word "undue" remains, there will be serious problems.

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Mr. Pike : I wish to concentrate on amendment No. 241. Had time permitted, I would have wished to follow the line taken by the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Marland) when he referred to CFCs, a subject in which he has great interest. He will recall that I was in the chair for the latter part of the meeting on the Thursday to which he referred. We were all interested in the presentation. It was clear that, even with the current action, there is still a long way to go in dealing with these issues. It is no use trying to limit the use of CFCs in this country if we continue to manufacture and export them. We must carefuly consider alternatives and also labelling. If there were time, I would expand that debate, because it is of great importance and we should be concerned about it. If CFC production and all emissions into the atmosphere were stopped now, it would be 70 years before there was any positive improvement. That statistic illustrates the scale of the problem.

As the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, West (Mr. Jones) said, amendment No. 241 should have my name on it. I do not know how the error arose. My hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Williams) also signed the amendment. The debate in Committee on this issue was the best that I have experienced since I came to the House. Not only should it have persuaded the Government of the problem, but it should have convinced anyone listening to the case that recommendation 23 of the Select Committee in its second report of 1988 -89 was most sensible. Indeed, that recommendation followed closely the recommendation that led to the establishment of the National Rivers Authority following the investigation into river and estuary pollution a few years ago. The logic for proposing 10 regulatory authorities is identical to that proposed, and ultimately accepted, during the passage of the Water Act 1989. That is why we find it difficult to understand why the Government are not prepared to accept this recommendation when they accepted the previous recommendation. The whole issue rests on whether it is possible for a body that is carrying out certain functions, whether disposal or collection, also to be the regulatory body. We are minded to support the proposal because we believe that there is a strong case that if regulation is to be seen to be independent and objective, it is better to separate it from the responsibility of carrying out a function.

As I said in Committee, the Bill divides responsibility for collection, disposal and regulation in different ways throughout the country. I do not intend to waste the time of the House by going into detail, but there is no single system for England and Wales. There is an extremely good case for accepting amendment No. 241. There is a strong link between waste disposal and leachates into the water with areas roughly corresponding with the NRA. We are not prepared to say whether that should go to an environmental protection agency, although there is a good case for that. The Labour party is committed to the principle of an environmental protection agency, as is the Select Committee on the Environment--by unanimous decision on more than one occasion.

If a Labour Government were to introduce such a body following the next election, it could be argued that such a function should go to regional councils. However, it would be wrong for the Minister to divert along that avenue tonight. We should use this opportunity to ensure that there is even -handed regulation throughout the country, with issues being considered objectively and in the best interests of the environment. This is a Bill to protect the

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environment. When I have referred to it as the Environmental Protection Bill, on more than one occasion the Minister has said that it is not only about protection but about enhancement. Both sides of the House accept that. The amendment is a step in that direction. If the Minister does not accept the amendment or agree to introduce an amendment in another place, there will have to be further legislation within two or three years. He may not be in government then because, I hope, the Labour party will be in office. However, whoever is in government in two or three years' time This is a serious matter. Hon. Members must stop saying that Ministers will address the matter in a White Paper. The truth is that what has been suggested in this interesting debate is extremely radical--the joining together of regulatory agencies that would incorporate not only waste regulation but the National Rivers Authority. That was specifically mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West. In addition, although no one has mentioned it yet-- although it slipped between the cracks--perhaps the drinking water inspectorate and Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution should be included.

If we want to follow that route, the issues need to be carefully considered. It needs to be a strategy for the 1990s. The way in which I am responding to the debate fits closely with what the hon. Member for Burnley wants. I give him the solemn undertaking that we shall consider the issues in that light. I assure my hon. Friends the Members for Hertfordshire, West and for Norfolk, North-West that we shall consider those matters at one and the same time. One cannot strip out from a regulatory agency--whether it is responsible for matters relating to pollution of the land, water or atmosphere--one particular regulatory function from a White Paper dealing with the enhancement of the environment to the end of the century. That would be ludicrous.

I take on board the points made by hon. Members who are members also of the Environment Select Committee and repeat my assurance that we shall examine them. The hon. Member for Burnley is right to say that something must be done. If the way in which we should proceed over the next decade is to be spelt out, legislation must be introduced to bring that policy into being.

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Mr. Pike : Does not the Minister accept that the Government have already done as I suggest, with the establishment of the National Rivers Authority? We are only asking them to adopt the same approach in respect of this Bill.

Mr. Trippier : That the Government did so is the hon. Gentleman's opinion, not a statement of fact. Such an approach does not fit very neatly between, for example, the Health and Safety Commission and the Health and Safety Executive. It does not fit neatly either with Her Majesty's inspectorate of pollution. Should we or should we not move more towards the situation that appertains under the sponsorship of the Department of Employment? It is not as easy as the hon. Gentleman makes it sound.

We are clear that those issues must be addressed, and the hon. Member for Burnley need not tear his hair--to use the phrase of my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West--waiting for the White Paper, as he will have to wait only until September.

I assure the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms. Walley) that there is no lack of commitment to recycling on the part of the Government. Perhaps she prepared her speaking notes before hearing my introductory remarks, in which I referred to the new credit system that we shall introduce in respect of recycling. I touched also on waste minimisation.

I did not say--and I do not want the record to remain

uncorrected--that we would have a national register of contaminated land. That is nothing like what I said. I said that we are making it compulsory for all district authorities to keep such a register, which is somewhat different from a national register. It would be extremely difficult to keep a national register up to date, and wrong to put local authorities through the wringer in trying to keep up with the dreadful bureaucracy that such a register would demand. However, I think that the hon. Lady shares my concern that there should be increased awareness among potential developers and others who may go near contaminated land that it is contaminated. I am prepared to meet her on that point.

I shall return to the question of a national strategy--let us at least agree on that phrase--for waste disposal in my concluding remarks.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West asked me to put flesh on the bones of the reserve powers to which I referred in my introductory remarks. Amendment No. 242 makes as good a starting point as any. I share my hon. Friend's view that there is a need to ensure consistent regulation of a high standard in the metropolitan areas. I draw his attention to the powers that were given to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment in the Local Government Act 1985 to give directions to metropolitan borough councils to establish a form of regulation satisfactory to him. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, West will recall that the 1985 Act dealt with the dismemberment of the metropolitan county councils. We are considering the reserve powers that that legislation gives in terms of the new statute. It may be possible to transform or to transpose them.

My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Marland) referred to CFC disposal. I agree that the disposal and reclamation of CFCs is not something that

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we should lose sight of when debating ozone- depleting substances. Disposal must be by total destruction of the molecule, through incineration. A better option is recycling, provided that it can be done safely. As my hon. Friend said, we have discussed the matter on several occasions--not only in Committee but at my Department. I am pleased that a British company, the Bird Group, is at the forefront of developing equipment safely to remove CFCs from various types of machinery. My hon. Friend catalogued them. In that technology, the Bird Group is, I believe, a world leader. We hope that its equipment will be of great benefit both environmentally and commercially. The Department of Trade and Industry has commissioned a study on the recovery, recycling and destruction of CFCs, for which the Bill provides ample powers.

The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) asked whether the Government are committed to the minimisation of packaging. We are, and are currently reviewing the recycling of all materials and of packaging in particular. The options are currently being discussed with the Department of Trade and Industry. They include mandatory deposits and raw material levies. My Department participates with the DTI in the recycling forum. Recently, two of the 10 expert groups in that forum reported on glass and paper recycling, and the Government are considering those reports now.

The only aspect of the hon. Gentleman's remarks that unnerved me was his apparent preference for the post-collection sorting mechanism for dealing with waste for recycling. I ask him seriously to consider the Sheffield experiment, which I am pleased to say has the support of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North, using pre-collection sorting. I invite all-party support for that superb initiative, which is backed by the Government, the Post Office and Friends of the Earth, working in partnership to ensure that it is a success. If it is, I should love to see it replicated throughout the United Kingdom. That would mark a dramatic step forward in our objective of recycling 50 per cent. of domestic waste.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : If it is true that Manchester and Birmingham waste disposal authorities can recycle just as much, if not more, by post- collection sorting than by pre-collection sorting of the type used for the Sheffield scheme, that overcomes the problem of householders who find it extremely difficult to sort their waste--such as the handicapped or elderly. The Minister knows that, although the Sheffield experiment is a great success, some people still refuse, sadly, to co-operate by sorting their waste.

Mr. Trippier : There is little difference between the hon. Gentleman and myself. I cannot disagree with his observation. The majority of the people in the Sheffield experiment co-operate, and the signal that should go from the House today is that we very much welcome their support. It is common sense that if waste is sorted before collection--known as kerb collection in Sheffield--the cost will be lower than if someone else has to undertake that chore later at the sorting bay.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Norfolk, North-West on his precise amendment No. 316, which clearly recognises the argument that a licensee who is perfectly fit to hold a licence for one operation may not be suitable for another. His amendment seeks to make the fact that an applicant has once been judged fit and proper

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a material consideration in making judgment of his fitness for another licence. Even so, I am not, I regret to say, prepared to accept my hon. Friend's amendment. It is essential that a licensing authority should judge each applicant for a licence on his or her merits in relation to a particular operation. I give my hon. Friend my assurance that detailed guidance to local authorities, which they will statutorily be bound to regard, will cover that aspect, together with all other matters concerning fit and proper persons. The hon. Member for Stoke- on-Trent, North and several other hon. Members referred to a national strategy on waste. I have already referred to the delight that I felt when senior officials consulted senior officers in the local authority associations that want to move in that direction. It is a problem that can be dealt with only in terms of self-sufficiency on a regional basis and I am the first to accept that. An effective target could be for each region in the United Kingdom to be self-sufficient in waste disposal. Many hon. Members know that that is not the case. Some hon. Members represent constituencies in regions that are massive exporters of waste, which means that other regions have to take more than their fair share. I am reluctant to mention a particular region, but hon. Members know that we have had considerable deliberations about one part of the country that is north of Watford--so I can hardly be accused of being anti-southern--where we need a more rational approach to that incredible problem.

The Opposition remonstrated with me and with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to speed up the programme announced at the North sea conference for the disposal of treated sewage sludge. Will any Opposition Member who was in Committee who wishes us to accelerate the programme-- remember that we can dispose of such waste only in landfill or through incineration--nominate a landfill or incinerator site in their constituency? Suddenly everything goes quiet, and no one wishes to participate in the debate any more.

Mr. Bellingham : Has my hon. Friend had the chance to consider my remarks about the word "undue"? Will he delete that word?

Mr. Trippier : I feel that I am under an obligation to consider that. It is clearly a legal point, and if I am able to accommodate my hon. Friend, I shall ensure that the word is changed prior to the Bill going to another place.

Ms. Walley : The Minister clearly has a problem about the extent to which arrangements can be made to organise the proper disposal of waste. In view of what he has said, I do not think that we have had a final answer on how he will deal with amendments tabled by many of his hon. Friends.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 18

Application of Part II to Isles of Scilly

Part II shall have effect in its application to the Isles of Scilly with such modifications as the Secretary of State may by order specify.'.-- [Mr. Trippier.]

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Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 56

Powers in relation to abandoned shopping and luggage trolleys

.--(1) A local authority may resolve that Schedule ( --Abandoned shopping and luggage trolleys --) is to apply in its area ; and if a local authority does so resolve, that Schedule shall come into force in its area on the day specified in the resolution, which must not be before the expiration of the period of three months beginning with the day on which the resolution is passed.

(2) A local authority shall publish in at least one newspaper circulating in its area a notice that the authority has passed a resolution under this section and indicating the general effect of that Schedule.

(3) It shall be the duty of a local authority from time to time to consult about the operation of Schedule ( --Abandoned shopping and luggage trolleys --) with the persons or representatives of persons who appear to be affected by its operation.

(4) In this section "local authority" means--

(a) the council of a district ;

(b) the council of a London borough ;

(d) the council of the Isles of Scilly ; and

(e) in Scotland, an islands or district council.

(5) In Schedule ( --Abandoned shopping and luggage trolleys --) "the local authority" means any local authority which has resolved that that Schedule is to apply in its area.'.-- [Mr. Trippier.] Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 35

Risk assessment and notification requirements

.--(1) Subject to subsections (2) and (7) below, no person shall import or acquire, release or market any genetically modified organisms unless, before doing that act--

(a) he has carried out an assessment of the potential of the organisms for causing harm and of any risks there may be (by reference to the nature of the organisms and the manner in which he intends to keep them after their importation or acquisition or, as the case may be, to release them) of damage to the environment being caused as a result of doing that act ; and

(b) in such cases and circumstances as may be prescribed, he has given the Secretary of State such notice of his intention of doing that act and such information as may be prescribed.

(2) Subsection (1) above does not apply to a person proposing to do an act mentioned in that subsection who is required under section 93(1)(a) below to have a consent before doing that act.

(3) Subject to subsections (4) and (7) below, a person who is keeping genetically modified organisms shall, in such cases or circumstances and at such times or intervals, as may be prescribed-- (a) carry out an assessment of any risks there may be of damage to the environment being caused as a result of his continuing to keep them ;

(b) give the Secretary of State notice of the fact that he is keeping the organisms and such information as may be prescribed.

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(4) Subsection (3) above does not apply to a person who is keeping genetically modified organisms and is required under section 93(1A) below to have a consent authorising him to continue to keep the organisms.

(5) It shall be the duty of a person who carries out an assessment under subsection (1)(a) or (3)(a) above to keep, for the prescribed period, such a record of the assessment as may be prescribed. (6) A person required by subsection (1)(b) or (3)(b) above to give notice to the Secretary of State shall give the Secretary of State such further information as the Secretary of State may by notice in writing require.

(7) Regulations under this section may provide for exemptions, or for the granting by the Secretary of State of exemptions to particular persons or classes of person, from the requirements of subsection (1) or (3) above in such cases or circumstances, and to such extent, as may be prescribed.

(8) The Secretary of State may at any time--

(a) give directions to a person falling within subsection (1) above requiring that person to apply for

(9) Regulations under this section may--

(a) prescribe the manner in which assessments under subsection (1) or (3) above are to be carried out and the matters which must be investigated and assessed ;

(b) prescribe minimum periods of notice between the giving of a notice under subsection (1)(b) above and the doing of the act in question ;

(d) prescribe maximum intervals at which assessments under subsection (3)(a) above must be carried out ;

and the regulations may make different provision for different cases and different circumstances.

(10) In this section "prescribed" means prescribed by the Secretary of State in regulations under this section.'.-- [Mr. Trippier.] Brought up, and read the First time.

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