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Roads
9. Mr. Kirkwood : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has any plans to meet roads authorities involved in the areas covered by the routes south of Edinburgh road study to discuss the Government's recent announcement on the study's conclusions.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Yes. Scottish Development Department officials will meet the local roads authorities to be involved in the A1 steering group and each relevant authority in respect of the route action plans for the A1 and the A7 south of Hawick, and for various accident remedial programmes.
Mr. Kirkwood : In meetings held in future to discuss routes south of Edinburgh, will the Government bear in mind the anger and frustration felt in the Borders about the inadequacy of the Government's plans for routes south of the Borders? In relation to the A7 south of Hawick, will the Minister confirm that the only schemes now in prospect are all cash limited to a cost of less than £1 million? If that is all that is in prospect, does the Minister accept that the road will never be brought up to a tolerable standard? Will he give an undertaking that there will be a single dual carriageway built to highway-link design standards along the entire length of the A7 between Hawick and Carlisle within the foreseeable future?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I should not go as far as the hon. Gentleman in regard to a dual carriageway, because that depends on the amount of traffic usage. In the light of the importance of the A7 to the local economy south of Hawick, we intend to commission the regional councils to develop a programme of improvement. The hon. Gentleman's points will be examined. A bypass for Langholm is already in the trunk road programme. The necessary preparatory work and statutory procedures are planned to be complete by the mid-1990s. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Dumries (Sir H. Monro) supports that. I should also mention that improvements to the A7 south of Hawick will continue to be made to achieve specific local objectives. They will include accident remedial programmes and smaller improvement schemes where appropriate. So action will be taken.
Mr. Ron Brown : If all roads lead to Westminster, is not it clear that along those routes, regarding the poll tax, we shall see slogans such as "don't pay, don't collect"? It is not the official leadership who turned the "stop it" campaign into a "pay it" campaign who matter ; it is the anti -poll tax movement, Committee 100 and others, who rightly said that this is a civil law which should be resisted as a matter of right. Obviously--
Mr. Speaker : Order. The hon. Member's question is a bit wide of roads.
Mr. Brown : So people power is important ; again it has forced the Prime Minister to think again on her hated tax.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I always knew that the hon. Gentleman had remarkable ingenuity, but I did not think that he would wish the road tax to be increased to pay the community charge.
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Sir Hector Monro : May I thank my hon. Friend for his announcement about the road south of Hawick? May I impress upon him the fact that because of the amount of traffic, both from the Borders woollen trade into the north of England and from the tourist industry in the south of Scotland, it is very important that the road is upgraded and particularly that the accident black spots are removed as soon as possible?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : We shall certainly keep those points very much in mind, which is why we are commissioning the regional councils to develop a programme of improvements. I hope that that will help.
Medical Laboratory Services (Glasgow)
10. Mr. Watson : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what assessment he has made of the effect on patient care of the proposals by Greater Glasgow health board for the reorganisation of its laboratory services with a view to their privatisation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Michael Forsyth) : There are no plans to privatise laboratory services in Glasgow.
Mr. Watson : I noticed that the Minister avoided the part of the question relating to patient care, but is he aware that 23 midwives who will graduate from Glasgow's Eastern college of nursing next month have been told by Greater Glasgow health board that, despite demand for their skills, there is no money to employ them, so they face the dole? What advice can the Minister give to those midwives and to the women of Glasgow who want their services?
Mr. Forsyth : We have enormously expanded the number of places for midwives and nurses in the Health Service. As the training provided by health boards does not guarantee a job with that particular board, my advice to those midwives is to apply for the jobs that are advertised throughout the Health Service. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will join me in congratulating health boards on having increased the number of midwives and nurses in our Health Service to record levels and on paying them more in real terms than they have ever been paid in the history of the Health Service.
Mr. Allan Stewart : May I congratulate my hon. Friend on wearing the blue rose of Eastwood following his highly successful visit to my constituency? On the point about laboratory services at the Victoria infirmary, can my hon. Friend comment on my alternative proposals, which involve retaining the laboratory services at the Victoria, concentrating National Health Service geriatric provision in the core of the hospital at Mearnskirk and involving the private sector in extending the facilities at Mearnskirk? Is my hon. Friend aware that so far those proposals have received what I would describe as a reasonably fair wind from many people involved?
Dr. Godman : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seem to recollect your telling the House that it would be most welcome if questions were brief and if answers from Ministers were brief, too. You do not seem to be holding to that directive today, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker : I am keeping a careful watch on it, but interventions such as that do not help us to get on.
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Mr. Forsyth : My hon. Friend the Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) has made a constructive suggestion about Greater Glasgow health board's proposals for change to improve patient care within its area--that the Mearnskirk site should be used to improve geriatric provision in the city of Glasgow. That is a constructive proposal and I have asked the health board to consider it seriously. I know that its initial reaction is that it would like to study that proposal closely. I am sure that it will be taken into account along with all the other representations that have followed as part of the consultation process.
Mr. Speaker : Mr. Sam Galbraith.
Mr. Galbraith : Is the Minister aware that the Leukaemia Research Fund had intended to site a new research unit at Glasgow royal infirmary but that, as a result of the proposed reorganisation of the laboratories in Glasgow, it is no longer planning to do so? Will the Minister therefore please look into the matter to ensure that that world-leading unit comes to Glasgow and to Scotland?
Mr. Forsyth : I begin by welcoming the hon. Gentleman back to the House. I was not aware of the proposal that he mentioned, about having a leukaemia unit at that hospital. I should be very surprised if, as a result of the proposals for the reorganisation of the laboratory services, it were not possible to develop services for patients in Glasgow, because those proposals will save more than £3 million, which will be available for additional patient care, including helping patients who are suffering from leukaemia. I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman the undertaking that he seeks and shall look into that matter and write to him, stating the position.
Local Government Finance
12. Mr. Canavan : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what steps he is taking to assess the popularity or otherwise of the poll tax.
Mr. Rifkind : Public opinion appears to be divided over support for the various forms of local taxation.
Mr. Canavan : Is the Secretary of State the only person in Scotland who fails to realise that the poll tax is as popular as the bubonic plague and that it is adding insult to injury for the Prime Minister and her lackeys to imply that the Scots are a nation of scroungers because--in, I believe, the right hon. Lady's own words--Scottish poll tax payers are being subsidised by the "marvellously tolerant English"? Now that even the Prime Minister is having second thoughts about the poll tax, will the Government accept the voters' verdict in tomorrow's elections, when the people of Scotland will have a wonderful opportunity to hammer another nail into the poll tax coffin?
Mr. Rifkind : I should be fascinated to know what the hon. Gentleman thinks of his own party's proposals, if he thinks that the poll tax is unpopular. He knows perfectly well that the roof tax commands less support in Scotland than any other system of local taxation. On the level of support for Scottish community charge payers, the hon. Gentleman knows that what my right hon. Friend the
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Prime Minister said is factually correct, that Scottish local authorities raise on average 20 per cent. of the revenue that they require from Scottish community charge payers, whereas English local authorities raise an average of 30 per cent., which is one reason why English community charges are significantly higher than those in Scotland. I should have expected the hon. Gentleman to welcome that on behalf of his constituents who are having to pay that charge, which the hon. Gentleman is trying to avoid.Mr. Malcolm Bruce : Will not the Secretary of State acknowlege that Scotland is witnessing the unedifying spectacle of the Government and the Labour party together offering the two most unpopular methods of raising taxation for local government? They are making up Mickey Mouse figures to try to discredit local income tax, which the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows to be fair. Its administrative costs are half those of collecting the poll tax, and it will release funds to be invested in local services. If income tax is a fine method of financing central Government, why not extend it to provide the same buoyancy and accountability in local councils?
Mr. Rifkind : On the central principle, government is financed by both income tax and value added tax, which ensures that all adults pay towards the costs of government. One of the fundamental deficiencies of local income tax is that almost half the electorate would not pay a penny towards the cost of local government. As part of his support for local income tax, has the hon. Gentleman pointed out to his constituents in Gordon that a person on only average earnings would pay a local income tax of £732, so a husband and wife on average earnings in his constituency would pay over £1,400? I suspect that the hon. Gentleman does not draw attention to those figures when campaigning for a local income tax in the Grampian region.
Mr. Gow : In the light of the popularity, real or imagined, of the community charge in Scotland, will the Secretary of State assure the House that the community charge will be introduced shortly into Northern Ireland?
Mr. Rifkind : That will be a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
Rev. Martin Smyth : You will be aware, Mr. Speaker, that I have fought the case of Northern Ireland students and the community charge for some time. May I assure the Secretary of State that, despite the news that the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Eltham (Mr. Bottomley) has brought from east Belfast, that the poll tax would be popular, it is not popular among the parents of students studying in Scotland who, under the seamless robe of government, are paying the full taxation in Northern Ireland for local government? Will he bear that in mind as he examines changes?
Mr. Rifkind : It is worth remembering that under the old rating system or under the Labour party's roof tax, a student renting a flat would pay the full rates and would not have any automatic deduction. Under the community charge, for the first time, all students have an automatic deduction of 80 per cent. from their bills. That is very much to the advantage of students as a whole.
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NHS Trusts
13. Mr. Foulkes : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland for which hospitals he has had expressions of interest regarding self-governing trusts ; and from whom the request has come in each case.
Mr. Michael Forsyth : Expressions of interest have been obtained from four hospitals in Ayr, Forfar and Aberdeen.
Mr. Foulkes : Will the Minister confirm that, in spite of the fact that Ayrshire consultants have voted 9 : 1 against opting out, the minority could still put forward a scheme, his placemen on the health board could agree to that scheme and then, on their advice, he could transfer the ownership of the new south Ayrshire hospital, built at public expense, to a small clique of his own supporters in Ayrshire, against the wishes of the majority of the medical and other staff and against the wishes of the majority of the Ayrshire people? Is not that the biggest steal since the great train robbery?
Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman's description of self-governing status is a travesty. If the proposals for the hospitals in Ayr are taken forward, they will give consultants and staff an opportunity to take part in making decisions at local level. The most important point is that self- governing hospitals will remain part of the National Health Service. They will not be transferred out of it. The hon. Gentleman may believe that decisions are best taken above the heads of people in the Health Service. He is entitled to his opinion, but many people in the Health Service will not take that view when they consider the opportunity.
Mr. Bill Walker : Does my hon. Friend realise that those of us who are not hung up on the doctrine that we are given by the Opposition welcome the fact that at long last there is an interest in developing properly Health Service and hospital facilities in Forfar? Is he aware that general practitioners in Forfar are fully behind the programme?
Mr. Forsyth : My hon. Friend is perfectly right. The proposals for Forfar have come from not the health board or management but local doctors and general practitioners who see the opportunities that self-governing status will provide.
Mr. Forsyth : The hon. Gentleman asks how many. All the GPs in Forfar who are involved have put forward those proposals because they see the opportunity for improving patient care. Opposition Members who care more about dogma than about patient interests may care to reflect on that.
Mr. McKelvey : Does the Minister accept that I am more concerned with the dogma of democracy? Will he give an undertaking to the House, as he seemed to on the previous occasion when he was questioned on the matter, that many more people will be consulted about opting out than he first thought? If that consultation is widespread, will he stand by the majority verdict of consultants and others working in the Health Service who believe that health services should stay within the NHS and want nothing to do with opting out? Will he stick by the majority verdict?
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Mr. Forsyth : The only advice that I can give to the hon. Gentleman is that he read the proposals. He uses the term opting out. No hospital will opt out of the NHS. If the hon. Gentleman reads our well-documented proposals on consultation, he will see that there are two stages. The first is expression of interest--the stage that has been reached in Ayr. After that there is the development of proposals or a business plan, if that term is preferred. At that stage there will be full consultation. The procedures that will be followed will ensure that everyone can take account of the proposals and form a judgment on the interests of patient care. That is the way in which the Health Service should be run. It is the appropriate way and I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would endorse it.Local Government Finance
14. Mr. Ian Bruce : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what proportion of local government expenditure will be raised from the community charge payer, the uniform business rate payer, and Government grant ; and what were the Government's original estimates if councils had kept to Government spending guidelines.
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : On the basis of local authorities' budget estimates, 22 per cent. of their expenditure in 1990-91 will be met by community charge payers compared to a Government assumption of 20 per cent., 23.4 per cent. by business rate payers compared to 24 per cent. and 54.6 per cent. from Government grant compared to 56 per cent. Local authority community charge payers should have to contribute on average only 20 per cent. They are contributing 22 per cent. on account of extra local authority spending.
Mr. Bruce : Does my hon. Friend agree that in the first year of the community charge in Scotland many local authorities made greater provision for bad debts and many other expenses that might have been incurred and increased the community charge accordingly? Is he aware that in the second year they have brought down their expenditure more in line with Government guidelines? Does he further agree that the non-payment campaign in Scotland is the one thing that ensures that community charge payers will have too pay to much this year?
Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Obviously someone will have to pay the community charge eventually. The effect of non-payment campaigns will be almost certainly to increase the community charge substantially for other
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charge payers. My hon. Friend is correct that this year there has been considerably more economy. Some 21 local authorities have either reduced their charges or held them at the same level while another 13 have kept their increases below the rate of inflation. Accordingly, there is increasing evidence that in the second year of the new system in Scotland local accountability is taking effect. In contrast to that, the proportion of the budget of Edinburgh district council that is raised from the community charge is over 40 per cent.-- probably the highest in Scotland.Self-governing Schools
15. Mr. Harry Ewing : To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland how many schools in Scotland have taken steps towards opting out of local authority control.
Mr. Lang : Parents at one school have presented a formal written request calling for a ballot to be held on self-governing status.
Mr. Ewing : After all the parliamentary time spent on the opting-out legislation, all the civil servants' time spent on it and all the people's money spent on it, how does the Minister have the nerve to get up to say that one single school has asked to opt out of the system? Is not that ample evidence of an unrepresentative Government imposing unwanted legislation on an unwilling population? Why does not the Minister take his courage in his hands by joining the rest of the people in Scotland tomorrow and, through the ballot box, telling the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth), to get lost and to take his dangerous and daft opting-out legislation with him?
Mr. Lang : The longest journey begins with a single step and I have no doubt that many other schools will be interested in following the example of the one school that has so far applied to be considered. South of the border, where the opting-out provisions have been in place longer, some 36 applications have now been approved and the number of applications for admission to those schools has risen in many cases by as much as 50 per cent.
Mr. Canavan : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises out of questions.
Mr. Speaker : It does not necessarily have to arise out of questions and I shall take it after the applications under Standing Order No. 20.
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