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therefore, at least two years, preferably three, would be right. Let us never forget that not only quality would suffer, but so would the service given to a locality and the people who lived in it if there were uncertainty and the ownership of the station and the company were in doubt.I speak for those who live in some of the regions of this country where the population is more scattered. We want continuity, quality and stability. I do not believe that the Bill gives that, so I strongly support the new clause.
Mr. Tony Banks : In his usual authoritative and perceptive way, the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) put his finger straight on it-- because it is quality which is what a moratorium is there to protect. He was right in saying that in Committee the Minister of State did a good job. We said that ad nauseam. The number of times we were forced to compliment the Minister on his proposals became embarrassing. The Bill was eminently improvable and, unlike some of his harder, less cerebral, colleagues on the Front Bench--excluding the present Minister, of course--he showed himself to be both imaginative and understanding of what broadcasting was about and what was needed.
Although we have said that the Bill is still not the one that we would choose, it is certainly much better than the one that started out in Committee. I still feel that if the Tory Whips had allowed the hon. Member for Buckingham to sit on the Committee rather than deliberately excluding him, it might have been even better than it is now. The hon. Member was absolutely correct in what he said about the moratorium.
The Minister of State did a good job and we had the clear impression that his idea of heaven would be rushing from a Chelsea victory at Stamford Bridge to a Pavarotti concert. Certainly both subjects came up in Committee on a regular basis and perhaps his absence from the Dispatch Box at present means that Pavarotti is singing somewhere outside.
I find myself in the odd position of supporting the new clause moved by the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker). It is not an experience that I have had before and I doubt that I shall ever have it again. I know that the hon. Member spent more time talking about regional aspects, but the quality argument is essential. Although we have established a quality threshold, which was very much welcomed because there is not going to be a Dutch auction for new franchises, it is possible that the large players will stand back while the lesser bidders go in for much lower quality than the large bidders would have done if they had gone in during the original round. The franchise may be awarded on quality but, in relative terms, it will be of a lower standard than if the larger bidders had gone in. Once the franchise has been awarded, the big boys will come in immediately afterwards and snap up the new franchise holders. However, they would be coming in at a much lower quality level than they would have been forced to offer if they had entered into the original bidding. That is why the moratorium is absolutely essential. The moratorium will protect the Government's own guarantee about the quality threshold. Therefore, the Government must accept the amendment or, if not this one, one of the others --because there is a range from which they can choose. There must be some sort of moratorium in the Bill or their arguments about a quality threshold will be set at naught, or at least seriously undermined.
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The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) said that George Russell--or St. George, as he began to be known in Committee--said that one year would do. I think that he is right, and that it could be that George Russell was exercising a degree of self- censorship and decided to opt for the lowest figure that he thought the Government were likely to accept.If George Russell were given the chance to look at the matter objectively, he would be more likely to agree with the hon. Member for Tayside, North, as I would, than go for something less than three years. That would at least give the new franchise holder the chance to meet adequately the quality standards set in the original bid. If there are predators or potential predators they will have to come into the first process. There would not be much point in their standing back for three years because if the new franchise holders are successful it will be that much more difficult to take them over and, if the predators try to do so, the asking price will be that much higher.
Therefore, for all those reasons, but particularly because I want to protect the Government's acceptance that there should be a quality threshold, I shall support the proposal of the hon. Member for Tayside, North.
Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries) : There is a fair degree of unanimity in the House that the principle of the new clause is what hon. Members wish to see in the Bill. I dare say that, in his reply, my hon. and learned Friend the Minister will say that if he cannot accept one of the new clauses tonight the Bill may be changed in another place.
In declaring a small interest in a television company, I wish to say that this is a matter of standards, takeovers and uncertainty. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kincardine and Deeside (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) said, why should we bother about the initial auction if a takeover would be almost inevitable a matter of months afterwards?
I am particularly interested in regional television and live in the Border Television area. While it is not afraid because it would not anticipate any takeover from Grampian Television or Scottish Television, it would certainly be worried about large companies in the south. The balance of programmes is important in regional stations, particularly in areas such as Border, which has to balance the Scottish and English content because it serves both sides of the border and the Isle of Man. Its experience of programme content is very valuable and cannot be lightly thrown away or overtaken by events such as a takeover by a major company in the south. Therefore, it is important, and reflects the tenor of the debate, that we should work towards a moratorium of at least three years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) said, in the first year everyone will be settling down and nobody will be clear about the way forward. I should have thought that three years was the very least period in which a company could prepare and run its programmes effectively. It should do it for that period without the worry of a predator breathing down its neck. It should not have to spend more time fighting off a takeover than providing the programmes everybody wants.
We should support the new clause of my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North and ask the Minister to consider it carefully. We are all speaking with a degree of experience. I should have thought that the House would
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accept that the period of two or perhaps three years--which I support--should be the period after which a takeover was permitted.Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South) : I support the new clause moved by the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker). May I point out that there is a range of options? I support a three-year moratorium after the bid has been decided, so as to give some certainty and to encourage television companies to invest in quality production. It costs much money to make television programmes and films. If there is any hesitation, investment will be delayed.
The cost of bidding will be expensive. Much paperwork will be involved. People will have to prepare the bid and provide the documentation set out in clause 17. They may want to take advantage of clause 17(3), which refers to exceptional circumstances, and concentrate on the quality threshold which they feel that they can surmount better than other companies. It may be expensive to set out for the ITC, and subsequently for the Minister, the documentation, including perhaps examples of programes, to show that clause 17(3) can be used. Expenditure of several thousand pounds may be incurred. I raised the question in Committee because trade union negotiators have been told bluntly that various television companies have been building up war chests so that, when the Bill becomes law, they can make a bid to capture the franchise. The Minister said that he would relax the provisions on the performance bond so that large amounts were not tied up in bidding and in the effective enforcement of the bid thereafter.
If there is no moratorium, a company, having built up money in the war chest to succeed in the bid, and having succeeded, is likely to retain funds to fend off any predatory bid which may be in the offing. Without a moratorium, funds will be put into defending the company rather than into the production of television. Without a moratorium, viewers will be denied decent quality programmes while a board room battle is fought. We know that board room battles over prominent, so-called prestige companies are often extremely expensive, with both sides inserting newspaper advertisements and employing public relations firms. Sometimes there are investigations into the circumstances in which bids and counter bids are made.
Having won the franchise, a company will want to fight off any predatory bid and will campaign accordingly. That means that it will need much money. It is absurd for the House to pass legislation setting out a fairly complicated and expensive procedure, and then for the Minister to be embroiled in an argument, best summarised by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) when he spoke on Second Reading, about maintaining the quality of programming. We should relish what he said about the Bill meaning that the Government like trash, that they believe the people like trash and that they would give them trash. We must give all credit to the Minister ; in Committee he gave the impression of complete disdain for trash. In exchanges, he was sympathetic to the need for quality to be taken into account as a factor in the "exceptional circumstances" clause 17(3).
Having gone through the battle and having won recognition from the Government that quality is an important component and that there are grave dangers in legislating sloppily--with money counting and quality
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being pushed to one side--it would be absurd to allow the removal of a moratorium. If there is no moratorium, there will be a drain of funds from the picture on the television screen. That is where we want the money to be spent. That is the basic purpose of a television franchise. That is what a television company is dedicated to and what it will be telling the ITC and the Minister that it can do best. 8.45 pmWe are not ruling out the possibility of competition, but the marketplace will not provide the quality that is necessary. A company cannot invest millions of pounds in quality television programmes if it is apprehensive about whether it will get any transmission at the end of the production period. A company has to invest over 12, or even 18, months to plan, produce and make ready for transmission serious programmes of reasonable quality. A successful bidder must be given a guarantee that he can carry out his commitment free from the worry and anxiety of predatory bids for a period of three years. In Committee, everyone agreed that a range of talents goes into the production of a television programme. The HTV studios in Cardiff and Bristol are making 112 employees of all grades redundant next Monday because of the war chest syndrome of building up funds. All those people want to make television programmes, but they will be denied the opportunity because of the circumstances being imposed on them by HTV management. It will be a grim development if talented and able people, with skills in writing, acting, editing, photography, set building and so forth, are denied the opportunity to use their skills because bidding is placed in jeopardy by the possibility of predatory bidding.
I hope, therefore, that the Minister will take notice of the representations from both sides of the Chamber which would ensure continuity, commitment and decent television programmes.
Mr. Anthony Steen (South Hams) : I associate myself with the splendid new clause proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) and also with the remarks of my hon. Friends and of Opposition Members. I wish to speak particularly to amendments Nos 484 and 483.
I presume that the whole idea of the Bill is to get some money into the Treasury and at the same time to get high quality programmes for the consumer. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that a low bid of £50 million was accepted because no other bidders came forward. Let us assume that a group of people got together as a consortium in the Channel Islands, and that, as the successful licensee was about to buy a bottle of champagne at the bar, the consortium made a hostile bid of £150 million. I cannot believe that the Treasury would be pleased if it had to forgo about £100 million because the Bill allowed that sort of thing to happen--and it would happen if there was no moratium on hostile bids. I have an interest in Television South West, which has a fine reputation for quality programmes. It is worried that there will be only one bid and that a consortium, rather like the ring in the antique market, will get together and bid it out of business, and that the shareholders will feel obliged to accept.
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Mr. Tony Banks : That is precisely my fear, but I suppose that there is another scenario. It is that the franchise holder who is doing the bidding might be not the nominee but the front man for someone who comes in a little later. In other words, the company that gets the franchise would quickly pass it on to the company that it knows is waiting. It would be not a predatory but a collusive bid, and it would enable the original franchise holder to get the licence slightly cheaper than he would otherwise have done.
Mr. Steen : There are endless combinations of what could happen. That shows that, without a moratorium, many nasty things could happen that would not be good for the Government or for the principle behind the Bill which has been accepted by most of us. The Minister of State has persuaded even those who have doubts that it is the best thing since sliced bread. He would have persuaded us even more if he had got the moratorium matter right.
I shall now deal with the logistics ; I am sure that the Minister will correct me if I get them wrong. As I understand the timetable, the new franchises will be awarded in the summer of 1991, although we do not have the exact date. The old franchise will not end until December 1992. There is an 18-month overlap and, as things stand, if the existing television company does not win the licence, it will have to continue for 18 months while the new television company is waiting in the wings doing its bit to undermine confidence. How will that system work, with the old television company winding down over 18 months and the new one waiting in the wings?
If the Minister accepted a moratorium of three years, he would have 18 months from the summer of 1991 until December 1992, and once the licence had been granted, at least the successful television company would have another 18 months to do the job without fearing that it would be at risk from any hostile bid. That would give shareholders a chance to evaluate the effectiveness of the company and whether it was putting into practice the quality programmes that it told the ITC it would produce.
The Minister has given much to the Bill, and has made it a great deal better than when it started in Committee. His acceptance of the modest amendment tabled by me and my hon. Friend the Member for Torridge and Devon, West (Miss Nicholson) or some of the other amendments could make it even better. That is what is required. Our amendment is a modest alteration, aimed not at crippling market forces but at giving a little leeway, so that those forces can work in the most effective way for the benefit of the consumer rather than just for the benefit of financiers.
I am sure that the Government would not wish the Treasury to lose money if there was some sort of argy-bargy. I join my hon. Friends and Opposition Members in urging the Government to make some friendly noise which would show us that they feel that something needs to be done. The points made are neither frivolous nor vexatious. They touch on serious matters and were raised by people who are anxious about the future of the franchises.
Mr. John Greenway : This is one of the most important new clauses that we shall debate. I am sad that my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden) was not with us in Committee because his speech demonstrated eloquence and a workmanlike approach. I shall not try to copy that eloquence because I could not.
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We considered many amendments in Committee and have still to deal with some important new clauses and amendments. They try to address two issues which are related but quite distinct. First, there is the question of continuity of licence applications. It has not been said so far in this brief debate that clause 3 as drafted requires the ITC to give consent to a transfer. Amendment No. 229 relates to television and amendment No. 418 relates to radio, and we must not forget the importance of the bidding process for radio. Those two Government amendments are welcome because they strengthen the Bill's provisions about licence obligations being put into any new arrangement about transfer or takeover.Secondly, there is the added issue of the threat to the allocation process for licences. The debate has sought to address that issue, especially in relation to Channel 3 licences. There was much debate in Committee on a key issue that has gained most attention outside the House--the allocation process, especially in relation to the need to strengthen quality. Quality has been strengthened and as the House debates other amendments hon. Members will see the extent to which that has been done. That is to the credit of my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State because he has responded to representations about quality. That has created an incentive for bidders to drive up quality through the bidding process. It is crucial that that quality is not undermined by prospective broadcasters sitting out the first round--the bidding process--and then getting their sums right through an immediate takeover.
There has been much debate about whether the moratorium on takeovers should be for a year, two years, three years or some other time. It is crucial that a prospective broadcaster should understand that the only immediate means of obtaining a licence is through the bidding process. That is the issue that we must agree, and that is why there is a strong case for a limited moratorium.
My hon. Friend the Member for South Hams (Mr. Steen) pointed out that the allocation process was likely to be completed at least a year or 18 months before the operation of the new licences. New clause 34, which is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for South Hams and which I support, was proposed by the Independent Television Companies Association Ltd. It proposes a moratorium for the period up to the operation of the new licences, and then for 12 months. I was encouraged by my hon. and learned Friend the Minister's comment, in an earlier intervention, that that is also the view of George Russell and of the Independent Broadcasting Authority. It is crucial that potential broadcasters who wish to obtain a television franchise can only obtain a licence immediately--the same would apply to the new independent radio stations--by winning the franchise allocation. Otherwise, there is a threat that all the good work done in Committee to strengthen the bidding process and to drive up quality will be undermined. A moratorium and takeovers of a limited nature could be the way to resolve that problem.
9 pm
Sir Giles Shaw : My hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State must regard himself as being in a difficult position. He has seen so many changes to the Bill in Committee as he has gradually moved from the first flamboyant gesture of an open-ended option for franchise.
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However, he should not be too discouraged if the idea of a moratorium is raised now, as it is consistent with the Government's present position.A new television structure would be fragile. There can be no doubt that the market in 1991-94 will be intensely more competitive for media operations. Channel 4 is already coming on hot and strong, and Channel 5 is due shortly. There will be easy money to be made by companies that succeed in the auctioning process.
There will be real difficulties in the competition for the quality that every hon. Member wishes to see. The competition between those that provide the money for the programme makers will be severe. The scale of commitment of a successful bidder will be greater than that of previous franchise holders, who were in a cosy, semi-monopolistic world--although they had severe difficulties in establishing their regional networks.
The Bill contains various ways to protect the system, with references to small stations, large stations and the cross-ownership of media investments. I dislike media investment in television companies ; I think that they should attempt to restrict themselves to obtaining new capital, and not second-guess other media owners. There will be a great deal of cross-fertilisation between companies. The auction system will provide a series of under-bidders, who believe that they have as much right as anyone else to acquire a franchise. There will be a natural interest in attempting to make an abortive bid more successful. That is endemic to the auction process, and legitimately gives rise to the moratorium procedure.
I remind the House that it is not the under-bidder from the United Kingdom about whom we should be concerned ; it will be various EEC bids that can be easily funded to provide a broader interest in how United Kingdom franchises will be awarded. Those EEC organisations have a great deal of experience, and have been acquiring United Kingdom companies for some time- -not excluding the water companies--and they will be searching for ways to get in on the act.
My hon. and learned Friend the Minister should accept the principle of a moratorium. The scale of it is, I suspect, a matter of fine judgment. After all, it will be rough if the new company produces but one year's profit and then becomes vulnerable. It is the product--whether it is a good piece of television or a prize-winning exhibit--that those organisations will be looking to buy. The asset of a television company is not just the franchise on the region ; it is the selling capacity of the creative minds in that company that provide programmes to be sold abroad that provide profitable investments. That too will have to be considered.
The one year suggested by the chairman of the ITC may not be long enough to protect the fragility of the system but, when all is said and done, I am sure that the moratorium will be consistent with what has gone before. But it must be interpreted with great care because it must protect a system which ultimately has to gain enough strength to stand on its own feet.
Mr. Corbett : There was such a moment as this, as the Minister and other members of the Committee will recall, on 25 January, the night of the great storm. The thunderbolts were clattering against the roof when we had a debate on religious broadcasting and the wisdom of requiring Channel 3 licensees to carry some religious
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programmes--in other words, to retain the "must carry" rule on religious programmes. The Minister listened to all of us, as he has tonight, and not only did he say that he accepted the sense of the Committee on religious programmes but, almost without being asked, children's programmes as well.There was another such night when, after a long and enjoyable debate on the exceptional circumstances clause, after unanimity on both sides, the Minister left us with the thought that he would act as the Committee's messenger and talk to others with fingers in that particular pie to see whether changes should be made. We shall come to those changes later.
Not one hon. Member who has spoken in the debate on the moratorium has spoken against it. The principle is agreed on both sides. Even that nice Mr. Russell wants it, let alone others. The only arguement between us is from when it should date. The amendment in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) and others pins that down to 31 December 1995 to allow two years from when the first programmes were shown. We thought that there was some sense in allowing the programmes to be seen. Nobody will argue about whether that period should date from when the licences are awarded by the ITC or from when the programmes begin. An interesting point was made about the 18 months' spill-over period. I always find it uncomfortable to get tangled up with market forces, but I shall allow it to this extent. It is difficult to say what the balance sheet of a company which is awarded the licence, hopefully by the summer of next year, will show before it has a single programme on the air. It will have earned no revenue from its programmes. It may be that, as part of the process of getting its programmes together, it will be offering to make programmes for Channel 4, BSB or whoever wants to buy them, but I cannot think that that would be a serious proposition.
I do not want to labour the point, but, as the IBA has argued, it makes no sense, having gone through all the paraphernalia of the so-called quality test to check on the safety of the money and the suitability of the people behind it, when the amount of money, the sealed envelope stuff, can be counted at the same time as the quality yardsticks are being assessed--a laborious process and expensive for those who bid--if within 24 hours of all that happening and that nice Mr. Russell and his friends saying, "Okay, you have got it" it is possible for someone to make a bid for that company.
However, I believe that such a thing is unlikely to happen. My own guess is that those who aspire to take a share in an expanded British broadcasting system are as likely as not to be trying to buy their way in to the present set-up. We know that one of the big television contractors has two rather large blocks of shares for sale. I believe, as someone who does not deal with such matters every day of the week, that it is more likely that those who aspire to a share would consider it more sensible to buy in to a company which they are advised--and there are many people in the City willing to give such advice--is likely to stand a good chance of bidding successfully for the new Channel 3 licence.
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To concede the principle of a one-year moratorium from the date the licence is awarded will not cost the Government anything. I agree with Conservative Members who made the point that to do so would not be tampering with the doctrine of market forces. The Minister made it clear in Committee that this is the only time that the ITC will observe such an elaborate procedure, and that once the initial round of awarding licences is over thenceforth everything will be done via the stock exchange, by takeover. It is true that in those circumstances, whether the takeover is friendly or hostile, at the end of the day the ITC will have to approve those who seek to acquire the licence and, in the hon. and learned Gentleman's words, stand in the shoes of those to whom it was originally awarded.Given the one-off nature of the ITC's initial task, how much more important it is that the applicants who are required to observe that process are given a degree of initial protection so that they can show how well they can live up to the programme and financing promises that persuaded the commission to award the licence. The logic of that argument stands supreme. No one can lose from such an arrangement. The Government cannot lose in terms of their aspirations, and nor can the ITC. The companies which make successful bids neither gain nor lose, but in the critical early period between the award of the licences and the programmes going on screen there will be a measure of protection.
That is important not only for the companies, but, more significantly, for the viewer. The Minister and his colleagues have spoken of the need for stability in the system, arguing that no one wants to see violent changes in what is shown on our television screens. If there is no moratorium, there is at least a risk of the transition being more difficult to achieve.
I hope that the Minister will say that, on the back of the unanimous view expressed in this debate, he will at least reconsider. I suggest that he must go further, for there is a real wish for a moratorium. The bottom line is a one-year moratorium, though I have made it perfectly clear that I would like it to be for a much longer period. Nevertheless, we could all settle on a one-year moratorium. Unless the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) can secure a commitment with a period tied to it, I urge him to press his new clause to a Division. To do so would not be for the purpose of humiliating the Minister, who knows that neither I nor my right hon. and hon. Friends seek to do that, any more than do his own right hon. and hon. Friends. Instead, such an expression of the views of the House will give him an added argument when he consults the Home Secretary and other ministerial colleagues. I understand that in the Government today it is all a matter of listening and responding, at least in respect of other matters, so why should the same not apply to the issue now before us? It would be right to indicate before the proceedings are over that such was the eloquence of Conservative Back Benchers and the Opposition on the issue that the Minister felt it would be right to table the proposed amendment in another place. He will know, without my saying it, that if he does not say that, it will happen anyway when another place considers the Bill.
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9.15 pmMr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman has laid an appealing prospect before me. I am glad that we have a cameo appearance from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman), who, as a brief relaxation from foreign affairs, has resumed his interest in the Home Office--and I do not say that churlishly, as he is most welcome here. I commend the two Government amendments in the group. Amendment 229 deals with an issue raised in Committee--it will require the ITC to satisfy itself that the requirements of the licence would be upheld throughout the reporting period before giving consent to a transfer of the licence. Strictly speaking, the amendments are necessary because ITC consent is already required, but I gave an undertaking that we would etch that more deeply into the Bill, and that is what we have done. Amendment No. 418 makes the same arrangements for the Radio Authority.
Turning to the substance of this matter, obviously I listened with care to large parts of the debate, and my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Mr. Lloyd) reported to me on those speeches that, sadly, I missed while taking a short break. I am aware that all hon. Members who have spoken favour a moratorium ; that point is not lost on me. However, the other side of the case should not go by default, and I shall briefly outline it.
The ITV network has in the past been protected from takeovers. It is not clear whether that has been of benefit to ITV or whether some of the complacent and inward-looking characteristics of the system--for instance, its inability until recent times to come to terms with some of the changes in industrial relations, and some practices that are common outside--owe a great deal to the protectionist environment within which it has been able to operate. It is interesting that the IBA has announced its intention to permit takeovers of existing companies. We know that leading shareholders of one of the biggest companies are looking for an opportunity to sell. It is likely that takeovers of existing franchise holders will be permitted from the time that the Bill gets Royal Assent. The issue we must consider is whether we should have a stop-go cycle and whether, having allowed takeovers, we should enter a period of moratorium and, if so, whether it should be for one, two or three years.
If--it is quite a large if--my colleagues felt there were any attractions in a moratorium, with respect to the House, I do not imagine that they would want to go further than the period suggested by the IBA, which was 12 months. To be frank, it is higly questionable whether they would want to go that far. The whole issue turns on an evalution of some of the key points.
Hon. Members have expressed the fear that the consequence of allowing takeovers would be that new owners of companies could get around obligations entered into by their predecessors. That will not be possible under the terms of the Bill--first, because the ITC will have to give its consent to a transfer of the franchise. If it deems that the new owners are not fit and proper persons, or are otherwise unsuitable, it will be able to rule them out of court. Nothing could be more pointless than a successful takeover of a franchise which was then whipped away by the regulatory body.
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Mr. Walden : I understand the logic of my right hon. and learned Friend's point and it looks fairly convincing on paper. He made the same case at the forum that discussed the matter. However, the ITC will also be a new body exploring uncharted territory. It will have to make an essentially subjective judgment in awarding the franchise. It will then have to make a second subjective judgment about how well the franchise holder is carrying out the franchise and a third subjective judgment about how likely those who take over are to implement that franchise at second hand. So we are dealing with three levels of subjectivity. My fear is that in quality terms they will lead inevitably in one direction and it will not be upwards.
Mr. Mellor : I expect that the ITC will have already sharpened its skills by failing a number of applicants on the quality threshold. It will simply be asked to bring to bear the same thinking.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) reminded us that the new purchaser of the franchise stands in the shoes of his predecessor and will be held to all the obligations that his predecessor entered into, with all the new array of powers which the ITC has, and which the IBA does not have, to enforce those franchise arrangements. Those are real safeguards.
Some are concerned that the effect of a takeover bid would be to weaken the ability of a company to carry out its programming commitments, because time and energy would be devoted to resisting the takeover. I am not saying that there are any absolute truths in the matter ; I respect many of those who made that point, and I do not reject that argument out of hand, but in most sophisticated, well-structured companies there are those who are charged with the responsibility of programme making and planning and there are those who are responsible for the overall management issues. That is a separate function.
We have to be careful not to exaggerate and over-emphasise the problems of takeovers, which, after all, are part and parcel of every other part of the free enterprise system in Britain. We should be careful not to engage in too much special pleading on behalf of the broadcasting industry which is just one part of what we hope will be an increasingly competitive sector.
Several Hon. Members rose --
Mr. Mellor : I did not expect that argument to find much appeal among Opposition Members, and I have not been disappointed. I give way to my fellow Chelsea supporter.
Mr. Tony Banks : It is not a question of that argument not finding much favour among the Opposition ; it does not find very much favour among Conservative Members either. Surely the Minister must be impressed by the fact that some hard-nosed free marketeers are sitting behind him--the hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) being the classic example, and the man who moved the new clause seeking the longest moratorium--and not one single voice save his own has been raised against the idea of a moratorium. Surely, if the will of the House means anything to him, he must give us some moratorium.
Mr. Mellor : I am not honour-bound to provide a balance by having a little squeak on the other side of the case. I certainly understand that some of those who have spoken would give relatively short shrift to the argument that I advance, but I must bear that with fortitude.
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Mr. Cryer : It is precisely because we know about the free market system that hon. Members on both sides of the House have presented that argument. The Minister has not addressed a matter which has been raised repeatedly : what will be the position if a successful television bidder decides--as they will be perfectly entitled to do--to resist a predatory takeover, when to do so would necessitate spending a great deal of money? Would that not be perforce at the expense of the quality of television, and should not the moratorium be given to enable franchise holders to demonstrate the promises that they made in their original submissions?Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman seemed to recognise that the arguments are tending to be against takeovers generally. If they were accepted, they would be valid whether there were to be a moratorium period or not. They go to the root of the question whether there should be takeovers. The present ITV set-up does not make a very compelling test-bed for the proposition that a competitive, free enterprise community operates better when freed from the rigours of takeovers.
As I said in Committee, a number of observers of the broadcasting scene who are certainly not active supporters of my side of the political debate have long asserted that what has been needed to pep up the system is the ability for there to be takeovers and that many of the rest of our proposals would not be needed if we permitted that to happen. Obviously, the question of takeovers is part and parcel of the way in which a new dynamic is introduced into companies and into industries. Many sectors of the economy have greatly benefited from that.
Mr. Chris Mullin (Sunderland, South) rose--
Mr. Mellor : I am glad to know that the hon. Gentleman has views on issues other than the one on which he and I usually talk, so I shall give way to him.
Mr. Mullin : Is the Minister aware that no hon. Member from any party has spoken against the principle of takeovers this evening? We are talking merely about a moratorium. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman address that issue and not get carried away down side alleys about the principle of takeovers?
Mr. Mellor : I have to dismiss that as a somewhat churlish intervention. If some of the arguments allegedly in support of a temporary cessation appear to go to the question whether there should be takeovers as such, I am perfectly entitled to point that out. The point has been registered, and it will be there for all to read that the wide range of hon. Members who chose to participate in the debate--some have great experience in these matters--all spoke in favour of the moratorium.
Mr. Maclennan rose--
Mr. Mellor : I am just drawing towards a happy--well, perhaps not a terribly happy--conclusion. However, I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman who will, no doubt, drive me back to where I was before.
Mr. Maclennan : That has sometimes done the Minister good. However, I wanted to remind him of an earlier Home Office experience. There was a debate in the Chamber on another Bill about a proposal to curtail the rights of juries in serious fraud cases. On that occasion, the Home Office Minister heard, as the hon. and learned
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Gentleman has heard tonight, 11 voices speaking against the Government's proposal. The Minister gave the undertaking that he would consider the fact that there was unanimity of view, and very properly accepted the view of Parliament. When there has been unanimity of view from such an enormously wide spectrum of opinion, the least the Minister can do is not to set his face against what has been proposed. Perhaps that does bring him back to where he was.Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman has said in his own words what I was about to say in mine. I will not be deflected from doing so just because of his intervention. I have no remit to change this part of the Government's thinking tonight, and I do not say that this part of the Government's thinking will be changed. I will certainly ensure--
Mr. Tony Banks : Ask the gaffer.
Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman is not in the Shed now ; he should contain himself.
Mr. Banks : The directors' box.
Mr. Mellor : I keep an eye on him from the directors' box. Several hon. Members, many of them of considerable experience, have spoken this evening and all have spoken in one direction. I shall certainly acquaint my colleagues with that fact, and if they wish to use it to stimulate some further thinking, so be it. I am not guaranteeing that that will be the outcome, but I was invited to convey a further message and I am probably duty-bound to do so in this instance. 9.30 pm
Mr. Bill Walker : I do not think that in all my years in the House I have ever been described as a protectionist of any kind ; no one can suggest that my free market credentials have ever been in doubt. I did not table the new clause frivolously. I believe that television, the most potent communicating force known to man, is not something for which we should legislate lightly. Instead, we should consider the matter in great depth.
The remarks of my hon. and learned Friend the Minister were constructive. Although he did not go as far as my hon. Friends and I would have liked, if he and the Government say that they are prepared to consider the matter again, I accept that assurance.
I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time :
The House divided : Ayes 170, Noes 262.
Division No. 194] [9.30 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Donald
Archer, Rt Hon Peter
Armstrong, Hilary
Ashton, Joe
Banks, Tony (Newham NW)
Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)
Barnes, Mrs Rosie (Greenwich)
Barron, Kevin
Battle, John
Beckett, Margaret
Beith, A. J.
Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)
Bermingham, Gerald
Bidwell, Sydney
Blunkett, David
Boateng, Paul
Boyes, Roland
Brown, Gordon (D'mline E)
Brown, Nicholas (Newcastle E)
Bruce, Malcolm (Gordon)
Buchan, Norman
Buckley, George J.
Caborn, Richard
Callaghan, Jim
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE)
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