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Mr. Cohen : That is a fair point. If the Government support the principle of penalty fares, presumably they should have introduced a Bill to bring in penalty fares for the riverbus service. We have spent nearly three hours on the Bill, but if that is a private riverbus service, the Bill becomes--what do they call it?

Mr. Cryer : A hybrid Bill.

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Mr. Cohen : Yes, it may be a hybrid Bill. If the riverbus service is excluded because it is private, although public money went into it, and if the Government intend later to bring in regulations to apply the legislation to the riverbus service, surely that would make the Bill hybrid. The hon. Member for Ilford, South and I should have been called to order at the beginning of the debate. Perhaps the debate should have been stopped because this may be a hybrid Bill. I am shocked that we have spent three hours of precious parliamentary time on what may be a hybrid Bill.

Mr. Ken Livingstone (Brent, East) : Having just come into the House, I am fascinated. I was watching the debate on television and I assumed that at some point my hon. Friend would give up the struggle against the reactionaries who run London Regional Transport. Instead of wasting hours of parliamentary time--we can assure the lackeys from London Regional Transport who are here that the debate will go on--the best way of tackling the problem would be to return to the policy adopted by the Labour- controlled GLC in 1981 and cut fares. When we did that, the new fares brought dramatic results. People were happy to pay reasonable fares to a socially-conscious authority, but they do not like paying exorbitant fares to the lickspittles of a Tory Government running London Regional Transport.

Mr. Cohen : The record of my hon. Friend's administration in running London transport services was miles better than that of the quango. It was the Tories and their allies who took that administration to court when it wanted cheap fares. It was the Tories who wanted high fares, and they have had their way ever since. At the recent local government election there was propaganda about Conservatives costing less. That should be set beside their action when they took the GLC to court on its low fares policy. The Conservatives cost people more. They cost the people in my area more when the Nos. 38 and 55 bus services were cut. My constituents have enormous problems in getting to work, and they are furious about it. They were not consulted. There was only nominal consultation. About 1,800 people said that they did not want the bus services to be cut--

Mr. Thorne : rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put, That the Question be now put :--

The House divided : Ayes 62, Noes 25.

Division No. 201] [10 pm

AYES

Arbuthnot, James

Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham)

Arnold, Tom (Hazel Grove)

Baker, Nicholas (Dorset N)

Buck, Sir Antony

Butterfill, John

Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)

Chapman, Sydney

Clark, Dr Michael (Rochford)

Coombs, Simon (Swindon)

Cormack, Patrick

Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g)

Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)

Fishburn, John Dudley

Forman, Nigel

Forth, Eric

Fox, Sir Marcus

Freeman, Roger

Garel-Jones, Tristan

Gill, Christopher

Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)

Greenway, John (Ryedale)

Gregory, Conal

Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N)

Hague, William

Hampson, Dr Keith

Harris, David

Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael

Irvine, Michael

Jack, Michael

Janman, Tim

King, Roger (B'ham N'thfield)

Knapman, Roger

Lightbown, David

Lilley, Peter

Maclean, David

Mans, Keith

Miller, Sir Hal

Neale, Gerrard

Neubert, Michael

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Column 485

Nicholls, Patrick

Nicholson, David (Taunton)

Paice, James

Patnick, Irvine

Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Riddick, Graham

Sainsbury, Hon Tim

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Sims, Roger

Squire, Robin

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Thorne, Neil

Thurnham, Peter

Twinn, Dr Ian

Waller, Gary

Watts, John

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Sir John

Widdecombe, Ann

Wood, Timothy

Tellers for the Ayes :

Mr. Roger Gale and

Mr. Lewis Stevens.

NOES

Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE)

Benn, Rt Hon Tony

Bennett, A. F. (D'nt'n & R'dish)

Boateng, Paul

Cook, Robin (Livingston)

Cryer, Bob

Foster, Derek

Galloway, George

Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)

Haynes, Frank

Home Robertson, John

Hughes, John (Coventry NE)

Kennedy, Charles

Livsey, Richard

McKay, Allen (Barnsley West)

Maclennan, Robert

Nellist, Dave

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Skinner, Dennis

Snape, Peter

Taylor, Matthew (Truro)

Wareing, Robert N.

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. Harry Cohen and

Mr. Ken Livingstone.

Whereupon Mr. Deputy Speaker-- declared that the Question was not decided in the affirmative, because it was not supported by the majority prescribed by Standing Order No. 36 (Majority for Closure) .

Debate to be resumed upon Thursday 17 May .

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