House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 May 1990

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It is interesting that the Government did not leave that to market forces alone. They made the same admission about the need to require children's and religious programming. In other words, unless it is provided for in the Bill, it is unlikely to be done.

Mr. Cryer : Does not the same apply to training? The Bill provided an opportunity to require an obligation for training, but it has been sidestepped by the Government and the Bill is much the poorer in that respect.

Mr. Corbett : My hon. Friend is right about the omission of training from the face of the Bill, although to be fair to the Minister he took the point and has made some undertakings about what will be done in another place. We welcome the setting up of a training agency by independent producers and the television companies in Wales, setting a good example of what needs to be done in an immensely important sphere.

There is much in the Bill that the Government were unwilling to change. Why on earth was there that silly insistence on removing the right of every viewer to watch one or other of the major national sporting events, as 87 out of every 100 people watch those great family occasions? Now, satellite channels watched by fewer than three in every 100 people can outbid the new Channel 3 or the BBC for the right to show the cup final, the Derby or test cricket. It is no use saying that it will not happen. The House will remember that when West Germany won the men's and women's finals at Wimbledon, fewer than four in every 100 viewers in West Germany were able to watch that live because the rights had been bought by a cable station. Why in heaven's name have the Government put the future of ITN at risk by insisting that its users--that is, those who fund it--should have only minority control? Non-profit-making ITN will become ITN plc with a need to make profit. That will either increase the cost of news collection or bring cuts in its activities. After the elaborate process whereby the Independent Television Commission will decide who can buy a station, why can the whole thing be put at immediate risk days after success because the Government will not agree to a moratorium on takeovers until the new licence holders have been able to turn their promises into screen performance?

We argued long and hard about the need to restrict the holdings of newspaper owners in television. They are all treated the same in the Bill-- bar one. Mr. Murdoch is able to own 35 per cent. of our daily and Sunday press and 100 per cent. of Sky Television. It is not only the Labour party which sees danger in that dominance of our media by one wealthy voice. The rules should not depend on where and with whom Mr. Murdoch eats his Christmas dinner. That is why an incoming Labour Government will ensure that Mr. Murdoch is given equality of treatment and a sensible period in which to divest himself of one or other of his interests.

Poor Channel 5--born with just 15 lines of clothing, it stands parentless in an uncertain world. The Minister excited the House the other night with his vision of a national channel with 50 towns and cities opting out for periods of the day, although we still do not know what it will do for the rest of the time. The Government claim that the new Channel 5 will cover 70 per cent. of homes. The Minister's 50 cities plan will cut that to 60 per cent. of homes, thus making it of less interest to investors and

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advertisers, especially as it will exclude large swatches of the better-off London and south-east area, which is of particular interest to advertisers.

At the heart of our objections to the Bill is the way in which the Government plan to sell off the right to broadcast. Even the changes made to enable the Independent Television Commission to award licences to a bidder short on cash, but with substantially higher quality programming, do not meet those objections. Cash paid on top of what it is planned to spend on programming will mean less money on the screen and over the airwaves. The change will help, but in the end the highest bidder, or something near to that, will win. The Bill will not ensure a range of diverse programmes of quality. It will not guarantee innovation, excitement, experiment and expanded opportunities for views and voices not now heard. It puts the accountants in the driving seat. Instead of the system serving viewers and listeners, it is being used to serve them up to advertisers, and the viewers and listeners will be the poorer for that. That is why we shall oppose Third Reading.

5.1 pm

Mr. Roger Gale (Thanet, North) : It saddens me that the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Corbett) found it necessary to be so churlish. His speech was as phoney as the "doughnut" around him in the House. The House is now in the "infotainment" business. The viewers need to know that as a result of Mr. Peter Mandelson's directions, six hon. Members are sitting around the Opposition Front Bench spokesman, but that there are very few others on the Opposition Benches. The synthetic comments of the hon. Member for Erdington, I suspect, were probably drawn up by the same author, which is a great shame. In Committee, the hon. Member for Erdington was extremely generous and helpful. As my hon. and learned Friend the Minister said, it was probably one of the most constructive and creative Committees on which any of us are likely to serve in this place.

I thank my hon. and learned Friend for the generosity of his remarks and for his thanks to colleagues of all parties. I doubt whether any hon. Member would suggest that it has not been a pleasure to work with him in Committee. I doubt whether any hon. Member, in spite of the comments of the hon. Member for Erdington, seriously believes that we have not made real progress on the Bill. Etched on the heart of the BBC in Portland place are the words : "Nation shall speak peace unto nation".

When those Reithian sentiments were expressed, the BBC really meant that the English nation shall speak unto other nations in the Queen's English.

That world of broadcasting is changing. We face the imminent prospect of pan-European broadcasting. Seventeen television channels are already available to viewers in many parts of this country. A further 16 Astra channels will be available later this year. The Hughes corporation of America plans to launch a 100-channel satellite of digital transmission. The prospects are enormous and the opportunity for the programme makers is considerable. Only the British could regard the prospect of a tenfold increase in the size of audience available to them as a threat rather than a challenge.

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Mr. Bruce Grocott (The Wrekin) : I am interested in the hon. Gentleman's mathematics. Top viewing figures these days can reach about 20 million people. How will there be a tenfold increase with a population of about 56 million?

Mr. Gale : If the hon. Gentleman had been listening and had been aware that I was talking about pan-European broadcasting, he would have grasped quickly that a potential Europewide audience of more than 400 million people will be available to programme makers in this country. As a programme maker, I regard that as a considerable challenge and opportunity.

I regret deeply the churlish and vindictive attack that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) made yesterday on the proprietor of The Times and other newspapers, Mr. Rupert Murdoch.

Mr. Buchan : Does the hon. Gentleman work for Mr. Murdoch?

Mr. Gale : The hon. Gentleman asks whether I work for Mr. Murdoch. The hon. Gentleman has sat through hours and hours of debate in Committee and we have sat for hours and hours listening to him. I suspect that, in due course, we shall have the fourth repeat of his speech. He should know by now that I do not have a declared or any other interest in any of Mr. Murdoch's operations. However, I have a considerable regard for the money he has invested in the future not only of print journalism in this country, but of satellites and the development of the satellite industry. I am talking about precisely that now.

As was said yesterday, there are 22 national newspapers in this country which are owned by 11 companies. There are well over 1,000 daily and weekly, regional and local newspapers, none of which is in Mr. Murdoch's hands. The prospect facing the British viewer-- Mr. Buchan rose

Mr. Gale : I will not give way at this point.

The prospect facing the British viewer is of 47 or 48 channels of television by terrestrial broadcast and from satellite in the coming year. The prospect of four of those being in the hands of somebody who also owns a few newspapers is not a threat to democracy in any shape of form.

My hon. and learned Friend knows that I should like to see the rules relaxed so that newspapers could acquire a greater share in the future of communications, whether television, radio or further newspapers. It is a great pity that the Bill does not yet permit local newspapers to have a controlling interest in community radio stations. As I said yesterday, I hope that my hon. and learned Friend, as a listening Minister, will have another go at that when the Bill reaches another place.

In Committee and on Report, my hon. and learned Friend has created a piece of legislation that will pave the way for broadcasting in the year 2000 and beyond. I do not see it as a long-term Bill. The hon. Member for Stoke-on- Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher), repeating his Committee comments, has been proved right : it is a Bill for the early 1990s. It will cover the critical transition period between now and the year 2000, during which so many technical changes will take place. The digital communications systems that will carry voice telephony, data and entertainment will become inextricably linked. Satellite broadcasting and cable delivery systems will become more and more complementary. The Bill is a recognition of the

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fact that there will be a transitional period in the United Kingdom home between the reception of four terrestrial television channels and the use of a whole range of interactive services, just a few of which will embrace television entertainment.

My hon. and learned Friend the Minister made a number of major achievements in Committee, and struck a delicate balance between the need to preserve quality and the need to encourage investment in many new channels. He has provided in the Bill for groups of people who have not hitherto been provided for in legislation. We need to remember that. He has provided for the deaf and hard of hearing and has introduced measures affecting religious broadcasting and children's television. Children's television and religious broadcasting have always been there, but arrangements for them have never before been enshrined in law.

As my hon. and learned Friend the Minister has said, there is much more work to do--both here and in the other place. My hon. and learned Friend has said that he intends to do that work, and I believe that he is right to say that the Bill is a Bill of which, in the end, he will be justly proud.

5.11 pm

Mr. Norman Buchan (Paisley, South) : I am grateful for the opportunity to reply to some of the nonsense that has been talked not only in the past three months but in the past five minutes. I especially liked one of the comments made by the hon. Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale), who said that he did not work for Murdoch. I am pleased to hear it, because we now know that his support for the Bill arises not out of a desire for cash but from sheer ignorance of what its consequences will be. That means that we may eventually be able to convince him that he is wrong.

I was astonished to hear the hon. Member for Thanet, North say that the large number of different newspapers in Britain represented a wide spread of opinion and were a means of expression for many separate and individual voices. Five people--a fifth of the number of Labour Members in the Chamber at the moment and a twentieth of the number of people in the Strangers Gallery--own and control 93.9 per cent. of the national daily and Sunday newspapers. Five people tell the vast majority of British households what they should read and how they should think. The hon. Member for Thanet, North then asks why one man, Ruper Murdoch, should not own four television channels. That one man owns 35 per cent. of our national daily and Sunday newspapers and so speaks directly to a third of our people, yet the hon. Gentleman asks why he should not also own four television channels. At the heart of all thought is language. The word is precious, because he who controls the word controls our future. Communication is infinitely more important than any other matter that may be dealt with in legislation. Without a means of hearing truths and contrary truths, we cannot make progress and if one wants to cripple progress, one must inhibit people's freedom of expression. If five people are allowed to control 94 per cent. of newspapers--the major vehicles for the printed word--the truth will be obscured. That is what we face at present with newspapers, and that is why we are so anxious about the Bill.

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What the Bill does--Professor Peacock said in his report that he thought this should happen--is to allow individuals monopoly powers without any regulation and without the basic controls necessary to ensure freedom of expression. The Bill will pass, not just to several people of the same kind but in some cases to the same person, the ability to bring what passes for the truth into British households. We have already seen what happens when control is passed to certain individuals. We see it every day in The Sun. Do British parents really want their children to grow up to read The Sun ? Will that develop their personalities? Will it produce people who will create a civilisation of which we can be proud? Having seen The Sun, we have no excuse for defending what lies behind it.

We are talking not about vague possibilities but about something that we can already see. We have seen the future that those who already own and control our newspapers want to give us, and we do not like it. The Government now propose to give the same person who has polluted the written word the ability to go on to pollute the spoken word. That is what the Bill will do, and no amount of amendment, and no amount of niceness and proclamation of love of the arts on the Minister's part, will change the fact that this is a rotten, disgraceful and cash-orientated Bill.

I have debated with the Minister in the past, and I know that deep down he has a sense of civilisation. I am surprised that he, of all Ministers, should have lent his smooth words to the process of getting the Bill passed. The Minister claims that he has made concessions, and he has. I predicted one of the concessions for which a measure in the Bill already provided.

There were originally two major faults in the Bill itself--quite apart from the pattern of ownership that might flow from it. The first was that it did not protect quality and truth, and the second was that it introduced repressive measures, including censorship. We have made some progress on quality. We are no longer simply giving away contracts to the highest bidder. The Minister has accepted that at least some regard should be paid to the question of quality before the contract goes to a high bidder. That is an improvement, and we thank him for it. We believe that he welcomed it himself. The principal effect of the Bill will be to flog off broadcasting to the entrepreneur. The Minister claims that the Bill gives freedom and the hon. Member for Thanet, North says that we are afraid of the freedom that it will confer. But the second main aspect of the Bill is its repressive and censorship measures.

Hitherto, broadcasters have been subject to two restraints. The first has been the board of governors of the BBC or, in the case of commercial broadcasting, the IBA. The second has been a code to follow. Public and commercial television and radio have each had one authority and one code. The Government are now introducing another authority and another code. The Minister has doubled the extent of the restraints on and repression of freedom of the broadcaster to speak the truth. In addition, the Minister now proposes to involve the criminal law. I know that many hon. Members will say that the invoking of the Obscene Publications Act 1959 and the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 is a good thing. I would ask them to be careful about that. Saying to broadcasters, "If you get it wrong, you will face a criminal

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charge," is a much more serious matter than asking them to obey a code and saying, "We will rap you if you do not do it."

We now have two authorities, two codes and the criminal law. That means that we have six times as much restraint as we had in the past, because the criminal law applies differently north and south of the border. Someone broadcasting freely in Scotland may find himself charged in England, and vice versa. We have thus multiplied by a factor of six the restraints on broadcasters. Ultimately, the Minister has the power and the Minister's appetite for intervention has been whetted by the attacks on Kate Adie led by the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), the invasion of the Scottish BBC and the seizure of the Zircon tapes, and similar further attempts to inhibit broadcasters' freedom.

In place of the freedom that the Government boast they will create, we shall create an apparatus of repression and censorship of the genuine broadcaster. We shall sell Channels off to the purveyors of cheap near- pornography. That is what will emerge, and I am sorry that the Minister has lent his hand to it.

It is no use Conservative Members saying that we are pursuing a vendetta against Mr. Murdoch. The vendetta that we must maintain is against the Government. They are a Government dedicated to profit makers and profiteers, and they are careless of the future of the civilisation of this country. That is why we shall vote against the Bill and why, when we return to power, the Labour party will introduce a broadcasting Bill that will represent the true civilisation of Britain, based on the needs of the people of Britain. It will give them proper choice of programmes. There is no choice if six channels purvey the same material.

The Bill matters deeply because, at the end of the day, the only safeguard that we have against tyranny, brutality and the power of those who already possess power is the freedom of the word, so that we can expose injuries when we see them, speak freely and involve people in freeing the word. At the beginning of the day, tyranny starts by locking up the freedom of the word. The future freedom of Britain depends on us freeing the word as never before. Television and radio are too precious to leave in the hands of the few and the powerful. That is why we shall change it when we return to power. 5.21 pm

Rev. Ian Paisley (Antrim, North) : My speech will be brief--I am sure that the House will be glad of that.

When the Bill was published, the Christian people of this country were outraged at its proposals. They wondered why the Government had not only left them out completely but put up barricades against them. I am glad that today, on Third Reading, the Minister who guided the Bill through the House took on board the representations made to him. He was gracious in receiving deputations and listening to them. He was gracious in listening to the arguments put to him. Today I say, on behalf of the Christian public, that Christians are pleased with what has happened. They realise that the Minister has accepted what they had in their minds and hearts.

The Minister realised the strength behind the arguments put to him and the need for a guarantee in legislation that there will be room for the propagation of the Christian faith and for children's programmes.

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Everyone in the country is indebted to all who took part in all the stages of the Bill. The Minister himself admitted that strong representations had been made to him from hon. Members on both sides of the House and by various bodies. He was glad that he could take them on board. We look forward with confidence to what he will do in another place. We trust that, at the end of the day, the people of this country will have in practice what they seek and that the new Broadcasting Act will guarantee them the things they want by right of choice.

As I said in Committee, after all, we have the power to switch off. We must see that the choice is there. When the choice exists, people can make their choice according to the standards by which they govern their life. I sincerely thank the Minister for what he has done on Christian representation.

5.23 pm

Mr. Robert Maclennan (Caithness and Sutherland) : The Minister began this debate as if it were a prize-giving ceremony. He could be forgiven for feeling a little discontented that some of the prizewinners have not responded with the spirit of generosity that he showed. The last occasion on which I was present as a recipient at a prize-giving ceremony was at my school. The presiding donor was none other than the late Lord Reith, a fellow Glaswegian, who sought to inspire in all of us a commitment, not to the benefits of public service broadcasting, but to the entrepreneurial flair that had led to the establishment of broadcasting as a medium for selling on a mass scale the new technology that was invented in the early 1920s. Speeches in Glasgow remind me of another, perhaps more famous speech than that of Lord Reith. It was delivered by that considerable Conservative, F. E. Smith, as lord rector of Glasgow university. He shocked the genteel by speaking of the availability of glittering prizes for sharp swords. There has been about the debates on the Bill some sense that there are glittering prizes in the future of broadcasting. While our task has inevitably and properly been focused on the consumers of broadcasting, we should be living in an unreal world if we did not think of the considerable commercial excitement about the possibilities that are opening up with the advent of new technology.

The speech of the hon. Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale) was enjoyable, as his speeches always are. He managed almost to enthuse us with a sense that the great growth of the technology in which he clearly revels will bring in its train the prospect of a greatly enhanced consumer experience, and that great enjoyment will flow from the adoption of new techniques of broadcasting.

Most of our debates in Committee and on Report inevitably focused on ensuring that the proliferation of services does not simply mean the replication of the same, and, indeed, a declining, quality of broadcasting. At this stage, it is right to ask ourselves whether we have succeeded in ensuring that the quality as well as the diversity of broadcasting will be enhanced.

I and my right hon. and hon. Friends are immensely excited by the technical possibilities of which the hon. Member for Thanet, North spoke. We believe that the creation of new stations and Channel 5, the multiplication of local radio stations and the evidence of foreign investment in cable in the past 18 months are wholly

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welcome. All those developments bring genuine potential for innovation. However, we cannot just leave it at that. Alas, the Bill does not usher in the age of change in the 1990s with the due regard to the quality requirement that should be at the centre of the debate about broadcasting.

The smack of earlier debates was that they were dominated more by the Treasury and Department of Trade and Industry than the Home Office Ministers who have ushered the Bill through Parliament. I do not hold any individual Minister responsible for that. I agreed with the short speech made on Report yesterday by the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Walden). He said that the Bill should have been about an auction of quality. If that had been so, we should have seized the opportunity and the methods that we have used in the past of distributing lucrative franchises. None of us has ever forgotten the view of Lord Thomson that they were a licence to print money. The methods of allocating those franchises in the past have been too opaque. There has not been much innovation or excitement, but a tendency for those who have enjoyed their franchises for a long time to take a conservative approach. I shall not be unduly upset if there is some turnover of ownership as a result of what is happening. However, we have missed an opportunity by not introducing a tendering process that focuses on quality, not cash.

Looking at the Bill as it stands after all our deliberations, I think that the Minister has served Parliament and the country extraordinarily well. He was right to linger as he did on the remarkable way in which the Committee worked. It was a remarkable experience to watch minds being changed by the process of debate. I think particularly of the change of approach that came over the Committee during the consideration of the national radio channels. By the end, it was clear that there was a consensus that internal diversity was less important than pre-franchise-allocation differentiation of the channels. That sort of development was immensely welcome.

When the Bill was first brought to the House, I was among those who called for a pre-legislative Committee to take evidence and try to reach a consensus in that manner. I still think that it would have been a good idea, but in the light of the way in which the Committee has worked, it was clearly much less necessary. Would that other Bills were handled in a comparable way, and the Minister deserves our congratulations for that.

As a former junior Minister, I have, in my day, handled extremely complex legal Bills, and I greatly admire the way that he handled the Bill on his own. It was quite remarkable that he was unassisted by other Ministers and has come up with a large number of amendments that are the fruit of our deliberations. His style has greatly assisted the legislative process and I hope that I shall have the opportunity of serving with him again in Committee.

The Bill as it stands leaves the other place with much to deal with. I fear that the provisions that allow takeovers to occur within a short time of licences being issued may make the tendering process something of a mockery. It will have the potential to disrupt the ITV system just when a period of stability is required, and it may take more money out of programming.

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The Government were unwilling to accept the hostility of ITV to multiple bidding and the opposition of a number of hon. Members, including me, to dual ownership. It is clear that dual ownership will put at risk local ownership, investment, local knowledge and local programming. I hope that that matter will be returned to in another place and that one bid, one licence will prove the final outcome. It is also to be regretted that we do not have a statutory underpinning for the requirement of networking, for it is recognised that that is necessary for the stability of the system and the viability of smaller companies. Quite rightly, much attention has been paid to the strengthening of the quality requirements, particularly the amendments to clause 17(3) which were tabled at a late stage. The auctioning of the franchises marked a victory for the Treasury over broadcasting. As I said, I would prefer a tendering system that allowed a company to be chosen on what it offers in terms of diversity, quality and investment in the region.

Independent Television News is inadequately provided for, and is the result of an unhappy compromise between the market and monopoly. What has been done looks like the punishment of the ITV companies for the success of their investment in ITN. The Bill creates a private commercial monopoly, effectively protected from competition and free, as a result of the great national base, to invade other people's markets, and for whom television news could prove to be a means, not an end. An improvement is required on that. On Report, I spelled out the options that remained.

There has already been some heated exchange in the House this afternoon about cross-media ownership. A period of reflection is needed to ensure that the debate is about monopoly, not simply one owner. The principle that cross-ownership is wrong is supported by almost all hon. Members. There is a huge potential for News International to become the keeper of the gateway for all companies using the Astra satellite by providing an encryption service. It is reasonable to anticipate that the rewards will be as great as the current losses.

The principle that cross-ownership is wrong must be protected, but a solution must be reached to enable News International to make a proper return on its risk before it is required to disinvest. I broadly agreed with the view expressed by the Minister last night that the amendment moved on that subject, which would have required a test of 3 million viewers, was not wholly adequate for the purpose. However, the principle that the amendment was seeking to advance seems to be the right one to pursue.

I think that he was hinting, or even stating, that, if the position changed, the Bill allows, by subordinate legislation, a disinvestment requirement to be brought forward. It is no part of my argument that that disinvestment should be punitive or expropriatory, but clearly it would be totally unacceptable for News International to dominate in a way that is peculiar to itself and contrary to all the arguments accepted by the House on the evils of cross-ownership.

The Government have got the legislation on listed sports events wrong. Such events should be available on terrestrial channels, and the Bill will be resented by many people if the result is to take family occasions off the screen and create the same position as can be seen in the Federal Republic of Germany, where German viewers have been

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deprived of the opportunity to watch their champions winning Wimbledon because the event had been bought up by a cable company. In our debates, the hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan) has properly focused a good deal of attention--perhaps more than any other member of his party--on censorship. I have considerable sympathy with what he has said. The Bill has erred in establishing yet another external Government-appointed organisation to act, effectively, as a censor of broadcasting. Effective regulation by the Independent Television Commission internally, and by the BBC, is the way that we should have proceeded. I am afraid that the Government have created an unnecessary quango with potentially evil consequences. The Minister is right to say that the changes in relation to radio brought about by the Bill are immensely important, although they have--he will not deny it--played second fiddle to television during much of the discussion on the Bill. The Minister has done much to ensure the future of commercial radio by agreeing to tighten the quality and pre-designation requirements of the national stations. However, I fear that community radio will suffer adverse consequences because of a lack of public investment and proper provision. That may mean that choice will be extended hardly at all to many parts of the country, and there will be still less choice of listening. As a result, we could see a considerable contraction of programme content.

I regret that the Bill does not provide for cross-subsidy of the transmission costs of local radio. That will deprive large areas of the benefit of local radio and there will be many white areas on the map. The Government have made a remarkable gesture by recognising the case for extending support for the Gaelic language in Scotland. I welcome the principle of that and many of the proposals that have been made for using the £8 million. There is much to be worked out if Gaelic broadcasting is to be effective in practice. I listened with interest to the suggestion yesterday by the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) that a Scottish equivalent of S4C might be the way to proceed rather than to expect the existing stations to carry Gaelic broadcasting at peak viewing times.

Mr. Buchan : In view of my strictures about the rest of the Bill, I should like to comment on Gaelic broadcasting and on the money that has come forward. I join the hon. Gentleman in welcoming that. It is a glimmer on the horizon and provides a little freedom for us all.

Mr. Maclennan : I share the hon. Gentleman's view about that, just as I agree with some of the other things he said about the Bill. I congratulate the Minister of State on an extraordinarily good job in improving one of the worst Bills with which the House has been confronted. I think that we can now live with the arrangements that have been made. I am not one of the Cassandras to whom the Minister of State referred, who believe that all will be doom and disaster as a result of the Bill. However, it remains to be seen whether our hopes for quality will be realised. The Bill will be strengthened if the other place takes account of what I have said.

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5.43 pm

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale) : The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) spoke about the stamina of my hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State. I agree with him about that. We became used to seeing that stamina in Committee, but the 17 hours that my hon. and learned Friend spent at the Dispatch Box in the past two days were something else. He was there until the early hours of this morning and the quality of his answers and the way in which he dealt with the issues never wavered. Such quality has been at the heart of our debates on the Bill. The Minister of State and I share a love of football and classical music. I am not sure whether his stamina has been gained by watching too much of Chelsea or whether he drew strength from listening to Wagner and other classical composers.

I pay tribute to everyone who worked on the Committee. We had an interesting four months and I certainly enjoyed our sittings. I wish that more of our proceedings could be conducted in such a good-natured and constructive manner. In Committee and on Third Reading we have seen occasional skirmishes between my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale) and the hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan), but they were the exception rather than the rule. I should also like to pay a small tribute to two silent members of the Committee. I refer to my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mr. Coombs), who is the Minister's PPS, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor) who is a most good- natured and helpful Whip. I said to him at the start of our proceedings that we would end up better friends than when we started.

Mr. Mark Fisher (Stoke-on-Trent, Central) : Sycophantic schmaltz.

Mr. Greenway : The hon. Gentleman seems disturbed about that. As my hon. and learned Friend the Minister has said, it is important for people outside to see that Parliament works in a constructive and good-natured manner. Sometimes the brief interludes that people are fed from Parliament's proceedings give entirely the wrong impression.

My main interest in the Bill relates to the future of Channel 3. My hon. and learned Friend the Minister of State spoke of the work of the Select Committee on Home Affairs. Perhaps I may be allowed one further reference, which goes to the heart of the issues. The report of that Select Committee emphasised that

"at the heart of the matter is the quality and range of services provided, and their financing, not the means of their delivery". The report also said that

"whatever criticisms are made legitimately at home, abroad British Television is seen to be amongst the best, if not to be the best in the world."

All members of the Committee had that ideal very much at the back of their minds. We wanted to maintain those standards in a future in which there would be much more competition, especially for Channel 3. Channel 4 has its remit strengthened even more by the Bill and its financial arrangements are more secure. That is also the case for the BBC, which for the foreseeable future will have the licence fee--another issue that Parliament will have to consider. Channel 3 has none of those things.

It is important to strike a proper balance in terms of underpinning the elements of the public service

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broadcasting commitment that Channel 3 has had in the past. That should be maintained, while recognising that it would be wrong to require too much from Channel 3 which has to compete for its revenue in the market place. We cannot provide the guarantee of funding that a more deep-seated or detailed remit for public service broadcasting would require.

Much of our discussion in Committee centred on the practical measures that we needed to put in place to ensure that the bidding process was sensible and an improvement on previous arrangements. In the past two days there has been a justified welcome for the key amendment to clause 17(3)--the exceptional circumstances clause--which the House debated yesterday. It is important that the other place does not overlook the clarification of the bidding process when it considers the Bill. Even in this debate, it is worth reminding ourselves again that unless a bidder's programme proposals, his financial arrangements and the level of his bid dovetail together, the ITC will be perfectly justified in rejecting that bid. Throughout the debates on the Bill, the Opposition have said that the proposals place too much emphasis on money and not enough on quality. The exceptional circumstances clause is now in place, although, as my hon. and learned Friend the Minister knows, I want him to consider whether the wording is absolutely right. However, that clause in itself is a clear incentive to the ITV Channel 3 bidders to bid up quality. There is a quality hurdle in the mechanism, but there is no money hurdle or threshold because the Bill does not say that a bid must be for a minimum amount. It specifies a range of obligations which underpin quality. Above all, they underpin the regionality of the Channel 3 structure.

My hon. and learned Friend knows that I see as very important the need to ensure that the Channel 3 regions remain a vital and important part of the broadcasting scene in Britain. That is important for those of us with constituencies a long way from London. Many of them, such as Yorkshire Television, Tyne Tees Television, Granada and the Scottish regional stations, have achieved great results, not only within the United Kingdom but throughout the world and have justifiably won many prizes for their programmes. They have brought an important breadth to the cultural life of the regions through their support for the arts and for drama. That is why we must protect the regionality of Channel 3, and the Bill does that. Not only did my hon. and learned Friend the Minister accept my key amendment on regionality in Committee, but having thought about the matter further he introduced another amendment on Report, which was accepted, to make it clear that when considering the facilities, studios and staff that a Channel 3 bidder will need in the regions, the ITC can request details of those arrangements and take them into account in assessing whether the bid is satisfactory.

Some concerns about the Bill remain, and they were enumerated during our discussions on Report. I am sure that the other place will take account of them. However, the issue of networking still remains. My hon. and learned Friend is right to allow the industry a little longer to reach some agreement. Nevertheless, he recognises that the commitments given by bidders cannot be a shot in the dark

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--there must be a clear understanding of the financial implications of the network when they formulate their bids and put together their financial proposals.

I am still concerned about takeovers and I am firm in my belief in the need for a moratorium. My hon. and learned Friend has agreed to reconsider that. I hope that he will not take too much account of the fact that, regrettably, when the matter was put to a Division in the House, it was heavily defeated. I hope that he will fully appreciate the importance of that issue.

All those who served on the Committee will recognise the quality of the briefings from both the IBA and the ITVA. When the Bill is enacted, when all its measures are in place, when we see the expansion of opportunity in television and radio which will result from the Bill, it will undoubtedly be thought of as "Mellor's Bill". However, we will also remember that nice, sensible Mr. George Russell, whom we discussed on many occasions. He will have the blueprint that he wanted for the future of Channel 3 in the allocation process. It will then be for ITV to make the best of it. I have no doubt that, as it has done in the past, it will do so in the future.

5.53 pm

Mr. Bruce Grocott (The Wrekin) : In taking part in a Third Reading debate not having served on the Committee, I feel as though I might be intruding in a private meeting. After hearing the remarks of the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), I wonder whether I have intruded into a love-in. It is obvious that a deep affection has developed between many of those who served on the Committee. However, although I may suffer from the disadvantage of not having served on the Committee, that may enable me to have a slightly clearer view of the process which has led to the Bill and the current position as it passes through its final stages in this place.

The Bill began with a Prime Minister with a congenital tendency to meddle, especially in areas that she does not understand. She has a rather unpleasant dislike of members of my union, the ACTT, and of journalists in general, although with the odd exception. She decided that television and radio broadcasting was another area of our national life in which she should meddle. She decided that a Bill was the right way to do that, despite the fact that, as many hon. Members have said, British broadcasting is outstanding, as are British television programmes. Some hon. Members may have seen a programme which was shown after our debate on Tuesday night. It was an hour-long documentary on ITV about the second world war from the D- day landings to VE day and told the story of the relationship between Eisenhower and Montgomery. It was outstandingly well produced with tremendous library footage. There was nothing clever--no trickery was involved--just a good story, well told. I wonder how many such productions will be possible on the fancy channels of the future. After the Prime Minister had decided to meddle, the next stage was for the former Home Secretary, who has now moved on, to undertake the job of giving a philosophical veneer to what was happening. He coined the immortal phrase that the new broadcasting system would be like browsing in a good bookshop. That was how he described the multitude of cable and satellite channels that are to come. It was then all-change at the Home Office, and the Bill was delivered to the Minister of State.

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The hon. and learned Gentleman seems to be the Government's odd job man, to be shunted from one Department to another- -I believe that it is called a sweeper in the trade. He has been quite amiable and has made one or two concessions--

Mr. John Greenway : Only one or two?

Mr. Grocott : I do not question the fact that the hon. and learned Gentleman has made concessions, but I have a feeling that he has been aware all along that he has been dealt a duff hand and he has had to make the best of it.

The Bill rests on two false premises. The first is the fallacy of technology. It is believed that, somehow, technology must drive the change in broadcasting. I do not want to patronise the Minister. Those who hit television tangentially--and the Minister hits plenty of television studios --tend to become mesmerised by the technology. I regret to say that some people have made a living from it, including the hon. Member for Thanet, North (Mr. Gale), who seems perpetually mesmerised even though he knows and understands what it is all about. Technology in television is the servant, not the master. It is rather like someone interested in newspapers being obsessed by the production process rather than the quality of the news coverage. What matters in television is the quality of the programmes, not whether the screen can be spun around or the programmes delivered by satellite or cable, bounced off the sun, the moon or whatever. A simple story well told, such as the documentary to which I referred, needs no fancy technology or delivery system--it needs good quality programming. As has been said repeatedly and effectively, the new channels by no means guarantee better delivery and better quality programmes.

The second fallacy, which is the Bill's fundamental and abiding weakness, is that the free market will somehow deliver. The Minister has had to concede time and again that the free market does not deliver. He had to do that through the increased regulations relating to religious and educational programmes on Channel 3. They will not be delivered by the free market any more than regional televison could have been delivered by the free market. They can be delivered only by regulation.

The Minister has not made satisfactory concessions but at least he has admitted that problems may lie ahead in relation to the whole business of takeovers, which proves that the free market philosophy is fatally flawed. The Government's idea of a free market in this respect seems to be that anyone with the cash can take over a company.

The free market fatally fails to deliver in all areas. It will fail to deliver in networking. We can achieve a proper networking system only by regulation and control. In other words, the whole notion of the Bill is based on a fallacy, as are the Government's policies in other areas. It is no different in principle from the view that if cash is allowed to reign supreme in the National Health Service, everybody will get a good service. In fact, it simply means that the rich get the best doctors and hospitals. The same is true in education--if it is left to the free market, the rich will get smaller class sizes. Only by a form of regulation that is democratically accountable can we have a good service that is available to us all. There is no more perfect a characterisation of the failure of the free market than the argument about the restricted availability of sporting programmes--the famous list to which reference is constantly made.

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Conservative Members who believe in the operation of a free market in broadcasting are saying that if, for the 2 per cent. of viewers with access to satellite television, the sponsors of Sky wish to buy Wimbledon, the cup final or any of the listed events and have the money to demand exclusive access to those events, they can enjoy those programmes, and for the 98 per cent. of the rest of us who do not have that access it is just tough luck. That is the logic of the free market. If Conservative Members do not believe that, they do not believe in the operation of the free market. Opposition Members believe that sporting and other events of that kind are part of our culture and heritage. The beauty of the British broadcasting system is that no wealthy group can decide to have such events for their exclusive use and enjoyment. We rest our case on the belief that broadcasting is at its best when it is available to everyone, when it has the money to make quality programmes and when it is able to build on the best of what has existed before.

The Bill is based on a fallacy and was conceived in spite. It has been developed on the basis of a phoney philosophy which does not stand up to examination. We want a properly regulated means of controlling this wonderful technology, with the incredible access that it gives to millions of our fellow citizens, so that it may expand choice and enrich the community. For that reason, we shall vote against Third Reading.

6.3 pm

Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West) : The speech of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Grocott) shows that Opposition Members do not understand what the Bill is about, mainly because they have not taken a step backwards to appreciate what is happening in broadcasting. The Bill will not change broadcasting and television. They are changing anyway.

The hon. Gentleman proves that he has no confidence in the ability of anyone to do anything that is not laid down and tightly drawn in legislation, preferably drafted by the Labour party. History shows that he is wrong. Opposition philosophy in this area was wrong in the past, and it will prove to be wrong on this occasion.

When the BBC began, it was technically difficult to put any television programmes on the air. The engineers had a tight grip on the BBC. When ITV started, the big fear expressed by Labour Members in debates similar to this was that it would not be possible for independent people to come in and produce quality programmes, and that even the necessary engineering resources would not be available to them to screen such programmes.

The technology has changed so dramatically that none of the equipment that is now used--cameras, editing and graphics equipment and so on--is more technical than the average hi-fi system. So, without enormous technical back-up and having to cope with the huge problems that existed in the past, it is possible to screen good-quality television programmes, using people whose talents are not in technical areas but in wider artistic, current affairs and news backgrounds. Modern technology allows such people to bring their talents to television and radio. Because those new opportunities exist, and because a massive number of new radio and some new television stations will be established, the Bill will enable all those talents to be brought to the fore.

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