House of Commons Hansard Debates for 10 May 1990

Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend is correct in his description of the visit of Mr. Haughey, though he came as President of the European Community to a conference which was devoted to European economic matters. The widespread view of those who took part in that conference was that his visit was worth while.

Mr. McNamara : What progress has been made on the joint Anglo-Irish application for the cross-border element of the European structural fund, and when can we expect a statement about that?

Mr. Brooke : We are still engaged in discussions, but progress on the outline basis has been made.

Mr. Mallon : Is not it time that the Secretary of State told the House exactly what discussions have taken place with the Government of the Republic of Ireland about cross-border co-operation in relation to the terms of EC directives? May we be assured that this time we shall not lose by default through failure to have proper discussions about those matters?

Mr. Brooke : I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman is referring to structural funds or to Community regulations against which the Republic of Ireland was held to have offended and was taken to the European court. We have not yet had the conclusion of that matter. We shall wait to see the response of the Government of the Republic, but we have pressed on them that we expect them to adhere to the judgment when it emerges.

Unemployment

10. Mr. Tim Smith : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many people are unemployed in Northern Ireland.

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15. Mr. Boswell : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the level of unemployment in Northern Ireland in March 1987 and March 1990.

Mr. Needham : The seasonally adjusted unemployment figures for March 1990--the latest available--show that unemployment now stands at 98,400. The corresponding figure for March 1987 was 123,500. This represents a fall of more than 20 per cent. during this period.

Mr. Smith : Does my hon. Friend agree that many of the political problems in the Province are attributable to structural weaknesses in the economy and former very high levels of unemployment? Does he agree that he has just given the House extremely good news? What was the trend in the Province in the early part of this year?

Mr. Needham : The trend in the Province in the last three months shows a proportionate decline greater than that in the rest of the United Kingdom. The growth rate of the economy in Northern Ireland is standing up extremely well. As for the future, my hon. Friend is right to say that we must improve our training to meet the economic needs of the 1990s.

Mr. Boswell : Does my hon. Friend agree that in the long term the best hope of reducing the disparity between Northern Ireland and United Kingdom unemployment lies in improving the skills of the work force? What contribution is the Training and Employment Agency making to that?

Mr. Needham : The Training and Employment Agency will be crucial to our success. Its board has wide United Kingdom experience and, I am sure, will come forward with ideas about how we can best proceed. Our aim is that everyone seeking work should have a recognised vocational qualification within five years and that, by the year 2000, 60 per cent. of all those studying should have three national vocational qualifications or at least one A-level equivalent.

Mr. Harry Barnes : Each month the Department of Employment Gazette publishes unemployment figures by parliamentary constituency. If the employment situation is so good in Northern Ireland, why is unemployment in Northern Ireland constituencies so high that seven out of the highest nine unemployment figures occur in Northern Ireland constituencies?

Mr. Needham : The hon. Gentleman knows the difficulties that we face in Northern Ireland because of the problems that we have with terrorism. He should, therefore, congratulate the Government on our achievements to date in having an extremely successful inward investment programme, an economy which is growing very fast and the immense changes that are taking place in the towns, cities and villages of the Province.

Mr. Ron Brown : As unemployment will always be high because of the security situation, is it not about time that the Government thought positively about withdrawing British troops from Northern Ireland? That would be a vital contribution to the Irish situation which has to be looked at time and again. It is about time that the Government made a decision on that.

Mr. Needham : I can think of nothing that would do less for Northern Ireland's economy than if British troops were

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to withdraw from Northern Ireland and security there were to become less stable. The key thing to do is to bring the communities together, continue with our programme of inward investment, improve training and continue along the path that has enabled us to succeed so brilliantly up to now.

Security

12. Mr. Riddick : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on steps being taken to improve cross- border co-operation on security with the Eire Government.

Mr. Cope : Measures to improve security co-operation, particularly in the border area, are regularly discussed at Anglo-Irish Conference meetings, most recently on 19 April. In addition, regular meetings take place at all levels between members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Garda Siochana. Progress has been made, but where further improvement is possible the Government are committed to securing it.

Mr. Riddick : Is it not the case that the Irish police in the border area are unable effectively to tackle IRA terrorists fleeing across the border from the north having just committed terrorist crimes because those Irish policemen are unarmed? Is not the obvious solution for the Irish Government to arm the Garda in the border areas or to place units of the Irish army on the border? Has my right hon. Friend raised those issues with the Irish Government and, if so, what response did he receive?

Mr. Cope : We frequently discuss all such aspects, but those are operational matters which must be for the authorities in the Republic to decide for themselves.

PRIME MINISTER

Engagements

Q1. Mr. William Powell : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her offical engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister (Mrs. Margaret Thatcher) : This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet and had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall be having further meetings later today.

Mr. Powell : Is my right hon. Friend aware of the growing public anger, resentment and anxiety about the waste of taxpayers' money by a number of local authorities, highlighted yet again in an article in the Daily Mail today about Ealing? Has not the time come for a full inquiry into the matter and would not the best thing to do be to establish a Special Select Committee of the House with full powers to call for persons and papers so that the true facts can be laid bare?

The Prime Minister : I have indeed seen the report to which my hon. Friend refers and, if correct, it is a shocking indictment of the extravagance and profligacy of that particular local authority. My hon. Friend will be aware of the excellent work done by the Audit Commission in identifying waste and making recommendations and it would be better if those recommendations were taken up more quickly. Nevertheless, I heard my hon. Friend's

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suggestion, as I am sure did my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House. Bearing in mind that a large part of local authority spending comes from the taxpayer, he has a good point.

Mr. Kinnock : In view of his obvious desire to be of help to her, has the Prime Minister thought of putting the poll tax review into the hands of the right hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine)? After all, one volunteer is worth 10 pressed men.

The Prime Minister : My right hon. Friend the Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) is well aware that the most unfair system of local taxation was rates.

Mr. Kinnock : I hope that the right hon. Lady will reflect on the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had at least one good idea--annual elections for councils, which has been Labour party policy for some time. Does the Prime Minister recall that when local authorities were tested last week the result was a net 300 seat gain for Labour, a net 11 council gain for Labour and a major increase in vote share for Labour? On second thoughts, does she think that that is perhaps what the right hon. Member for Henley had in mind?

The Prime Minister : My right hon. Friend the Member for Henley had many good ideas in his article, which of course will be considered, along with many others in the community charge review, to see what modifications and adjustments are necessary. With regard to structural changes in local authorities, I should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman would be well aware that those could not take place in the lifetime of the present Parliament. I remind the right hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend the Member for Henley rightly said this morning that the present Conservative Government "would fight and win the next general election with the community charge in place."

Mr. Tebbit : Will my right hon. Friend consider carefully the suggestion of our hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Mr. Powell) that a special Select Committee should be set up to examine these matters? For instance, it could take evidence on the desirability of a roof tax and explore the possibilities as to how it could be implemented. Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that it should be specifically precluded from questioning any members of the Labour party, however distinguished, about whether they voted Conservative in the Ealing borough council election?

The Prime Minister : My right hon. Friend makes the point more powerfully than I could. The people who turned out the Ealing Labour council did a good day's work.

Q2. Ms. Abbott : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Lady to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Ms. Abbott : Has the Prime Minister read the small print in Tarzan's election address, which featured so prominently in The Times this morning? Did she see the reference to the "virtuous circle" of falling inflation and a reduction in interest rates? Does she agree that, with interest rates at 15 per cent. and a rise in inflation due to be announced

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tomorrow, she is so far removed from virtue in such matters that the best that she could hope for in a Heseltine Administration is a position as elected mayor of Dulwich?

The Prime Minister : The level of inflation that the Labour party criticises today is well below what Labour was able to achieve during the greater part of its time in office. I remind the hon. Lady that there are more jobs in this country than ever before--that is the basis of prosperity.

Q3. Mr. Shersby : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Shersby : Will my right hon. Friend take time today to consider the excellent local election result in Hillingdon, where the Conservatives won control? Does she agree with me that the principal reason for that victory was their proposal for a community charge of £289, compared with the Labour proposal of £366--a reduction of £77?

The Prime Minister : Yes. I congratulate my hon. Friend, and I welcome the evidence that Conservative councils not only cost less but give better services. I note that, as my hon. Friend says, there will be a substantial reduction in community charge under a Conservative council ; nevertheless, Hillingdon Conservative council intends to spend an extra £1 million on schools, to devote more resources to care for the elderly and the handicapped and to cut council committees from 100 to 30.

Mr. Hood : When the Prime Minister visits Scotland later this week to pledge her full support for the poll tax in Scotland, will she also pledge her full support for the Secretary of State for Scotland as her friends on the Back Benches are insisting that he be sacked before the next election?

The Prime Minister : My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is one of the best Secretaries of State that Scotland has ever had.

Q4. Mr. David Evans : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister : I refer my hon. Friend to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Evans : My right hon. Friend may know that I have an interest in a certain football club. One of our sayings is that we never change a winning team. Will my right hon. Friend assure me that as she was our centre forward and captain in 1979, 1983 and 1987, she is not planning to change our winning team? Does she agree that our supporters would be dismayed if we put a reserve centre forward and captain on the field, notwithstanding the fact the Labour party has second-rate ideas, second- rate policies and, as their own supporters know, a sub-zero leader?

The Prime Minister : My hon. Friend and I share the same goal. With myself as centre forward and my hon. Friend on the right wing, we should make a winning team.

Q5. Mr. Mallon : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

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The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Mallon : As a major player on the world political stage for the past 11 years, the Prime Minister must surely welcome the breakdown of artificial barriers throughout Europe. As she surveys those changes, does not it strike her that the division of Ireland is an anachronism which cannot possibly work administratively, politically or economically? Would not it be the mark of real statesmanship if the Prime Minister were to dedicate her remaining time in office to solving that problem and in that way making a lasting contribution to a peaceful united Europe?

The Prime Minister : The hon. Gentleman is aware that the majority of the people of Northern Ireland have clearly expressed their wish to stay a part of the United Kingdom. So long as that is so, they will remain a part of the United Kingdom. I hope and believe that they will remain a part of the United Kingdom.

Mr. Robert G. Hughes : While many improvements in management and efficiency are needed in local authorities, has my right hon. Friend seen the report by PA Management Consultants which says that improvements so far have been a direct result of legislation passed by the Government? Will she confirm that it is not the policy of her Government to repeal that legislation? Does she agree that the policy of the Labour party to repeal local government legislation would be a disaster for everyone?

The Prime Minister : Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. The provisions of the legislation meant that local authorities had to go out to competition for many services, as a result of which they got better services at lower cost. The Audit Commission has also been active in seeing what further economies can be made. I hope that its conclusions will be carried into effect.

Q6. Mr. Nellist : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Nellist : Is the Prime Minister aware that the whole House will want to send its deepest sympathy to the family of William Cartman, the sixth British worker to be killed

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in the Channel tunnel, a project which seems to be costing almost a man a mile? Will she make it clear that it is entirely inadequate for the five companies of Transmanche Link to be fined only £10,000 each for the death of another worker last February? Will she assure the House and construction workers that the Government will bring forward emergency legislation to make mandatory a prison sentence on an employer who is found guilty of gross negligence following the death or serious injury of a construction worker? When will the carnage stop?

The Prime Minister : Of course we are concerned about that tragic accident. As the hon. Gentleman knows, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment will be meeting the chief executive of Transmanche Link later this afternoon to discuss the safety of the site. Health and safety inspectors are investigating the accident, and they have taken immediate action. Two prohibition notices have been issued which have stopped the operation of the two tunnel-boring machines in the marine tunnels. It is too early to say what caused the accident. We all deeply regret it, and we send our sympathy to the bereaved relatives of the person who was killed.

Q7. Mr. David Shaw : To ask the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 10 May.

The Prime Minister : I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave some moments ago.

Mr. Shaw : I thank my right hon. Friend for her remarks about the employees and workers in Dover engaged on the construction of the Channel tunnel. On a different subject--[ Hon. Members :-- "Speak for Dover."]--has my right hon. Friend had time during her busy day to read newspaper reports about the remarks of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who seems to believe--

Mr. Speaker : Order. The Prime Minister cannot take responsibility for that.

Mr. Allen : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises from Prime Minister's Question Time.

Mr. Speaker : I must take the Business of the House first.

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