House of Commons Hansard Debates for 11 May 1990

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House of Commons

Friday 11 May 1990

The House met at half-past Nine o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]

RAOUL WALLENBERG (MEMORIAL) BILL

Ordered,

That the Raoul Wallenberg (Memorial) Bill be referred to a Second Reading Committee.-- [Mr. Amess.]

Orders of the Day

Sexual Offences Bill

Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

New clause 2

Section 1 of the 1985 Act as amended by this Act shall only apply to designated local authorities. An area may be designated by a local authority if

(a) complaints are made by the general public and

(b) the police are satisfied there is a problem of prostitution and kerb- crawling and

Any designations shall remain in force for three years, but may be renewed thereafter.'.-- [Mr. Andrew F. Bennett.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

9.35 am

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish) : I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I want to make my position absolutely clear : I do not in any way approve of prostitution, male or female, and I think it a tragedy that people are driven to it by poverty or greed, or for any other reason. It is a sad reflection on human beings, too, that they are driven to use prostitutes by their own failure to enjoy sexual relationships of a loving and caring nature. So nothing that I say today is meant to defend prostitution.

I am well aware also of the problems for people who live in red light districts, in areas where kerb crawling takes place and where people try to pick up prostitutes in pubs and clubs. In some cases, these activities leave people virtually prisoners in their own homes at night, and sometimes in the day, frightened to go out because they think they may be propositioned in the streets. These activities also cause major problems for people who run pubs and clubs and who try to discourage them.

I am also well aware of the absolute disgust felt by people who live in or near such areas and who find that the pathways are littered with used condoms and other rubbish. As I say, I am well aware of the extent of the problem.

However, I am also always a little worried when the House of Commons expresses horror, repugnance and disgust at the problem and assumes that it must take some action, but without first carefully weighing it up. It is all

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too easy for us to be stampeded into taking action that appears to try to solve the problem but which, in practice, does not solve it at all. A cosmetic approach is all to easy.

Sometimes when the House is stampeded into trying to solve one problem it just causes another, harming certain people or curtailing the civil rights of a particular group, and that is why I urge caution today.

I should have liked to table an amendment that called on the Government to review the whole problem of prostitution, but unfortunately that was outside the scope of the long title of the Bill. Although I understand the desire of the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton) to deal with the problem of kerb crawling, I believe that there is a much wider problem that must be dealt with at some stage. The idea of new clause 2 is to allow the whole issue to be debated, within the rules of order, and more particularly to discover the Government's thinking about the problems of prostitution and kerb crawling.

We ought to spend a minute looking back at the history of this legislation and at the continual complaints about kerb crawling that have been made to Parliament most of the time since I entered the House in 1974. Strong arguments have been advanced that something should be done to ensure that the men, not the prostitutes, involved in kerb crawling are prosecuted. There have been various attempts to introduce legislation, and a Bill appeared in 1985. That Bill was hotly contested. It was argued that the major problem of kerb crawling had to be addressed. We also heard the perfectly legitimate argument that sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference between a kerb crawler and a person who has strayed into an area by mistake and is genuinely seeking information, to find an address in that area or to find somewhere else.

Mr. Matthew Parris who was then a Member of the House and the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow) argued at that time that we had to be careful not to place an innocent person in a position where he could be convicted of an offence that he clearly did not commit. That was why the legislation contained the provision that the offence had to be a persistent one in a motor car and that clear nuisance had to be created either to someone who was being solicited or to people in the area. It was a general catch-all provision. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Ms. Richardson) advanced the case for civil rights.

Why should the compromise that was hard fought in 1985 be destroyed by the Bill? We need convincing evidence before we take out the words that were put in to achieve such a balance in 1985 in the "persistently" and "annoyance" clause. Is there overwhelming evidence that the retention of that clause is at the root of the problem? The police say that they have had the legislation since 1986 but that it has not worked because the onus of proof is too difficult for them, so they have not used the legislation. I am not totally convinced by that argument.

There are many reasons why the police have not dealt with the problem and even if we change the legislation I am not convinced that it will be solved. Will changing the legislation solve the problem without creating the possibility that a small number of people who are in no way involved in kerb crawling could be convicted for it? Worse still in some ways, could such people be prosecuted? It is stigmatising for people to be prosecuted let alone convicted. In theory, if someone is acquitted by the courts there is no stain on his character. However, almost every hon. Member present in the Chamber would accept that in

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such cases there will be nudges and winks and innuendo because people think that a person who has been acquitted in such cases was in some way involved. They take the view that the court was kind to him or that he was lucky to get away with it.

Can the Minister present overwhelming evidence to show that the police have genuinely tried to use the 1985 Act and have in practice found it impossible to use? Secondly, is there overwhelming willingness on the part of the police to use it if it is amended? What other action is being taken? I have the feeling that what is before the House is a placebo. It is a cheap solution to say that fines will be increased and prosecutions will be made easier so we can forget about the problem. The view is that it will be a terrible nuisance for people who live in such areas, but the legislation may solve the problem in the next three or four years. Meanwhile, it is said, nothing needs to be done about it.

9.45 am

We should be looking for a much more fundamental solution than the one suggested in the Bill. It will have no impact on people who apparently cruise around such areas. Cruising around in cars for such purposes is a nasty activity but the Bill will not stop it. If the practice of prostitution disappeared in an area there would be no point in people cruising around in their cars. Have local authorities with prostitution in their area looked at other ways to deal with it? I am told that in some areas pedestrianisation has stopped cars cruising about and that in some cases it has stopped prostitutes standing in the area.

There is considerable scope for traffic management schemes. The new clause suggests that in addition to increasing the chances of conviction, the Government, local authorities and others should look for other solutions. A traffic management scheme that makes it difficult for cars to remain in an area substantially reduces the problem. Most people want to drive through such areas as quickly as possible. Street lighting and general appearance have much to do with the problem. In some though not all cases, an improvement in street lighting and in the way in which streets are set out for parking will make the area less attractive for prostitution.

My next argument deals with the level of policing. I am assured by the police that the presence of police cars with lights can lead to a substantial reduction in prostitution. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what he thinks is the best policing practice in such areas. Is it quiet surveillance and attempts at prosecution or is it much more obvious policing? If the police aim for many prosecutions, they simply increase the notoriety of an area, whereas a fairly high level of obvious policing may well reduce the problem and use police time more efficiently. Much police time is taken up by bringing prosecutions. Police officers could be used more effectively on our pavements.

The new clause ensures a proper democratic debate about the problems in specific areas. I am greatly worried about the way in which our police force has developed. There is not much opportunity for democratic debate about policing in a particular area. Enforcement of the law is governed by decisions made by the chief constable, probably in consultation with one or two other senior

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police officers in his area. It is for the chief constable to decide on the level of resources to be devoted to combating kerb crawling and activities in red light districts.

Some chief constables seem to ignore the problem. They think that there are far more important issues to deal with and that it is not helpful to move the problem from one area to another. They prefer to know where such activities are going on and know about the side issues that they create, such as drug abuse. If one lives in such an area and keeps pressing the police to take action, it is extremely frustrating if official, although unpublished, police policy is to keep a low profile when dealing with the problem.

Other chief constables--for example, in the west midlands--give the matter a high level of publicity and hope that sending letters to people who have been seen in the area will deter them. Will the Minister tell us whether such campaigns have achieved the results for which the chief constable hoped, or have they simply increased the problem? A worrying factor is that some people get involved in such activity out of bravado and a desire to live on the knife edge, almost daring themselves to get away with it. Publicity about an area may simply attract such people to it.

Other chief constables want to take action quietly. They have a high level of policing in the area, warning or cautioning many people, but do not bring many prosecutions. Others want a high level of prosecutions because that makes their crime statistics look good. I admit that I have put forward these approaches in very generalised terms, but I should like the Minister to tell us which of them is bringing the best results. What advice is Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary giving chief constables about how they should approach the problem? There is a strong case for making sure that there is a proper local debate about the appropriate action to take.

I realise that there are major problems with the new clause in that if an area is designated it immediately becomes stigmatised and the debate about it adds to the publicity. The other difficulty is that designating areas means drawing lines, with the absurd result that someone could be prosecuted for such activity on one side of the road but not if he was on the other side. Furthermore, one could simply remove the problem from one set of streets to another.

However, designation will force people to examine the problem of prostitution and weigh up the implications. Some people may argue that we should be getting rid of prostitution altogether. However, history shows us that, although all sorts of different regimes have been used, rather than getting rid of prostitution, they have simply driven it from one place to another. There must be local debate about the impact of simply moving the problem of kerb crawling from one neighbourhood to another. Those who have had to put up with the problem for many years will no doubt be delighted, and I do not blame them for that. If we stop kerb crawling, will we create another problem which may cause as great a nuisance? All these factors have to be discussed.

What is the Government strategy for dealing with prostitution? Do they hope that if the Bill is passed, whether amended or not, it will solve the problem? Are the Government giving guidance to local authorities about traffic management, pedestrianised areas, better street lighting? These are all changes that may help to deal with the problem. Do the Government believe that they can eradicate prostitution altogether? Will they be bold and

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courageous and say that, as they cannot get rid of it, they will regulate it? Will they go for the compromise of keeping prostitution illegal, but ignoring the problem and not insisting on enforcement of the law?

Designating areas will go some way to ensuring that the problem of wrongful arrest and charging will not spread. What guidance will the Government give the police about the use of these powers? There will be pressure to deal with people who ride around in cars and talk to people on the kerb, even though they are not picking up prostitutes. In my constituency, a fair number of young people cruise around the streets in their cars--it seems sad that they have nothing better to do--and stop and chat to other teenagers on the pavement, causing nuisance to older residents. Will the Minister make it clear that there is no intention of allowing this legislation to be used in such circumstances? Will he make clear the onus of proof?

I am worried about this aspect because it is not ideal to say that a court would not convict someone of the offence without clear evidence that he had stopped and spoken to a prostitute or had gone into the area without a legitimate excuse. If enacted, the Bill will switch the onus of proof from the police having to prove that someone was kerb crawling to the individual having to prove that he was not but was in the area for a legitimate reason, for example, to ask the way.

I hope that the Minister can answer at least some of these questions and that the hon. Member for Streatham can give a little more thought to the fact that he is taking not only the word "persistently" but "nuisance" out of the 1985 Act. He should at least consider, before breaking up the 1985 compromise, whether it would be sensible to retain a safeguard. We want to keep the safeguard for the individual walking along the street in that, to be prosecuted for attempting to pick up somebody, he has to do it persistently. The only reason for removing that proviso from someone who is in or close to a motor vehicle is that he might commit the offence in one street and then move on to the next street and it would be difficult for the police to bring a prosecution. I do not consider that to be an overwhelming argument. If it is reasonable to apply the word "persistently" to an individual who is walking down a street, it should apply to someone in a car.

I have spoken for far too long, therefore I shall now sit down and listen to other speeches.

10 am

The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Mellor) : Because of the unavoidable absence of my right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon (Mr. Patten), I find myself taking a trip down memory lane, as I was the Minister dealing with the 1985 Act. Therefore I am well familiar with the arguments, and I come to the Dispatch Box buoyed up by the confidence of having predicted that, because of the words we were forced to insert into the 1985 Act as the price of getting the Bill through the House of Commons, the Act would thereby be rendered only partially effective. No doubt what I said then bears the test of time better than some of the other things that I said about various topics five years ago.

I hope that I shall have the attention of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett), as it is important that we should reach sensible terms on the matter.

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In 1985 Parliament listened to appeals from communities in different parts of the country that were fed up to the back teeth with having their neighbourhoods ruined and despoiled by the activities of prostitutes and their clients. Two distinct but related problems were identified : first, the awfulness of living in an area where one could not walk around without being made totally aware of what was happening and the fact that that was a serious public nuisance and detriment to the amenities of an area ; and secondly, the fact that perfectly respectable women were unable to go out in the evenings without being the object of those appalling attentions. Let me say straight away that this is not a party matter, thank God. The 1985 Bill had support from all sides of the Chamber, as does the Bill today. There is no partisan element, and I have nothing but praise for the way in which those on the Labour Front Bench have sought to get the Bill through. By an irony, last time we debated the matter two Conservative Back Benchers were responsible for the difficulties. One of them has now gone on to a higher plane in the sphere of journalism. I do not think that he has ever quite forgiven me for some of the things that I said about his campaign against that Bill. It is a cross that I now have to bear every time I see a reference to myself in his column.

However, it was a fight well worth taking on. If, in 1985, Parliament had failed to pass a Bill to give those communities some respite, it would have stood condemned by the public, so I am not ashamed or embarrassed at having fought for that Bill. But an Act is not enough in itself ; it has to be effective.

I do not talk of these matters academically. Although, thank goodness, my own constituency of Putney is not particularly afflicted by such problems, the borough of Wandsworth, where I have my parliamentary constituency, has had persistent problems for many years. The problems in Bedford hill in the constituency of the hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) were among those most prominently described in 1985.

I respect the parliamentary skills of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish, and I regret that he is an obstacle to the Bill's progress because I recognise him as a formidable obstacle and a parliamentarian well capable of making his opposition to any measure effective. As we proceed this morning, I shall try to assist him with any legitimate points that he raises. I am sincere in that, as I do not consider it a matter of shame that hon. Members are concerned about the civil liberties aspects of the criminal law. I am concerned about them too and I always have in mind that little tag, "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" or, "Who shall protect us from our protectors?" and believe that checks and balances should always exist.

However, the hon. Gentleman should think long and hard before using today as an opportunity to prevent the Bill from making progress. In doing that, he would be denying not only the will of the rest of the House, which has been convincingly expressed in Committee and on Second Reading, but redress to decent folk who deserve it. He would also be failing to recognise the significance of the issue for women.

One of the most healthy developments in recent times has been a great narrowing of the gap between various parts of the Chamber on a number of key women's issues. I was glad to see it recorded in one of the Sunday papers--although I do not think that the author was particularly impressed- -that a number of Opposition women

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Members of Parliament came to see me with researchers and experts on pornography and its impact on women, and we reached almost total agreement. There was a time when men regarded pornography as a bit of a laugh. Plenty of people now recognise that excessive pornography is a threat to women and are prepared to be more sensitive to women's views.

Because the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish is a man, if he walks down a road in his constituency, or even if he parades up and down Bedford hill every day for a month, it is unlikely that any kerb crawler would try to pick him up. But the fact that it would not happen to him is no reason for being insensitive to the rights of those to whom I can assure him it will happen if Parliament is not prepared to be rather more firm in its resolve than it was in 1985. Male members of Parliament--I know that the hon. Gentleman has at least one other ally--should think long and hard before putting a somewhat academic approach to the legislation before the practical requirement of sensible law enforcement. It is clear that the problem will not go away.

However, we need to demonstrate that we are as serious about private Members' legislation as we are about Government legislation. I am a great believer in private Members' legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, South (Mr. Bright) is here today. One of my happiest parliamentary memories is taking through the House of Commons with him his Bill dealing with the problem of video nasties. He worked extremely hard on the Bill, which is a monument to his work. We do not hear about video nasties any more. His was a complex and difficult Bill ; it was properly argued and there were genuine points of dispute, but ultimately Parliament appreciated that something had to be done and that it was a good thing for Parliament that legislation of such complexity could be taken through by a private Member.

However, it did require certain Members who were not happy about the Bill to show some restraint and recognise that, although it was not everything they wanted it to be, it was something that the majority of Members wanted and which plainly addressed a real public ill. It was a real and genuine cause, not an issue which some hon. Members had invented.

It is unfortunate that, in recent times, private Members' legislation that has had a great deal of support has been blocked by only one or two hon. Members. That is a flaw of our private Members' system. I hope that the Bill, which deals with two important issues of criminal law, will not join the long list of private Members' Bills that have been blocked.

I say that so that the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish knows what my view is from the outset. I am not saying that I do not want to deal sensibly with legitimate objections. Indeed, I am prepared to spend a long time doing so. I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would be lightly forgiven, however, not least by other Opposition Members, if he were to take his opposition beyond the reasonable point of asking us sensibly to justify what we are doing and why we are doing it.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : I understand all the arguments and the implied threats that the Minister is presenting. I remind him that, when the sus legislation passed through the House, it was a response to an outcry from outside that

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such legislation was required. We soon began to be aware of the resulting problems. That is the danger. I have made it clear that I understand that there is substantial concern about kerb crawling. We must be careful, however, that we do not produce a placebo to cause people outside this place to think that we are doing something but which does not attack the real problem. We must ensure that, in responding to a problem, we do not erode civil rights and cause some people to be wrongfully convicted.

Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman's intervention reveals that I was right to give him 10 out of 10 for sincerity but not such a high mark for accuracy. The sus law passed through the House in 1824, and was abolished in 1980. I was a member of the Committee that considered the 1980 legislation, and I was an ardent advocate of it. I am glad that the hon. Member for Tooting has entered the Chamber. I should tell him that I have been talking about the problems of living in Bedford hill, for example, which he knows far better than I do. I ask the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish to understand that this is not an academic matter that should be dealt with academically.

The sus law was abolished because it was seen to be oppressive. I put that as a battle honour on the escutcheon in proving that I am not interested in repressive or oppressive legislation. I dare say that every hon. Member who was in the place during the 1979 Parliament voted with a glad heart to abolish the sus law. I can say with certainty that my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton) did. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish chose a terribly bad example, and he was wrong to imply that the sus law was a recent invention. It was introduced a long time ago, and was rightly abolished in 1980. We are all glad about that.

One of the answers in an area where there is a problem of the sort that we are discussing is to pedestrianise it, but pedestrianising decent residential areas near a major thoroughfare such as Bedford hill suggests evasion rather than a policy. I cannot think of anything more ludicrous than inviting local authorities to become involved in millions of pounds of expenditure on pedestrianising because Parliament cannot nerve itself to pass a decent and effective statute. If the hon. Members for Denton and Reddish and for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) went to Bedford hill and said, "Listen chaps, we must pedestrianise it," I think that they would get the bird. I shall await their response.

10.15 am

As I have said, I am not aware that there are any prostitution or kerb crawling problems in Putney. I know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you live in Wimbledon, which is not far from my constituency. We are equidistant from Bedford hill. I do not think that you have any problems in Wimbledon. If we were to engage in some absurd designation process of the sort postulated in the new clause, offenders would soon be aware of it. They would say, "We cannot do it here, in these six streets, but if we move about a quarter of a mile down the road, everything will be all right." That would result in an absurd tag match, in which the authorities would be chasing offenders and trying frantically to extend designation to meet the spread of the problem.

That has happened before. When we began in Wandsworth to have a street robbery problem, it soon

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became clear that it was the result of the intensity of the action that had been taken on the Northern line to stop robberies. I am talking about the action that was taken a few years ago to deal with the problem in Brixton. Every mugger who was worth his salt said, "It is getting a bit tricky here, we'll move west a bit." As a result, Wandsworth faced a problem. For a brief period, street crime in the area increased.

I genuinely respect the parliamentary skills of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish. If he is to be critical of the thought processes of those who have formulated the Bill, let him ensure that his thought processes are manifestly better. If the new clause is the best that he can do, he cannot produce an answer to anything.

Mr. Matthew Carrington (Fulham) : My hon. and learned Friend has referred to street crime in south London. I remind him of another example which I think is even more pertinent--that of the drug industry. It is operated in a way similar to prostitution. People crawl along roads in their motor cars until they find someone who is prepared to sell them drugs. When the police in Notting Hill Gate cracked down on the activity in the All Saints area, the traders started to move on to the streets in SW6 and W6 , including my constituency. In other words, the problem was transferred. I think that that is a perfect example of what my hon. and learned Friend is trying to say.

Mr. Mellor : I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He is a fellow inner- London Member and a parliamentary neighbour of mine. He does not approach the problem reeking of the midnight oil of academic study. He has practical experience and is aware of the nature of the problem. That is true also of my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Summerson).

I have not been inactive in the House this week, and might have thought that I could spend today pursuing some other cause, but I was not unhappy at the chance of being able to deal with the Bill. I consider that there is a problem that should be addressed. I shall not weary the House by going through what I said and did in 1985, but I am not ashamed of my words and actions when that legislation was passing through the House. What I said then has come true.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : I said when I moved the new clause that, once an area is designated, problems are transferred. Does the Minister accept that that is one of the problems of legislative action of the sort proposed? If it is enforced, some areas will receive a substantial amount of police attention. If the desire of the promoter, the hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton), is to be realised, the problem will merely be moved. The Minister must think about that. Will the Bill stop prostitution, or will it merely move it somewhere else? Will it spread the problem so that the chance of being accosted in the street will increase and spread over a wider area? Will that activity be moved to pubs or clubs, for example? If the problem is moved, I understand that those who are now facing it will enjoy relief, but the Minister must address himself to the wider issue.

Mr. Mellor : There is a grain of truth in what the hon. Gentleman says. If policing focuses on one area, there is a potential problem that offenders will go to an area where policing is not so hot. I acknowledge that there are

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examples of that. The answer is not to make it impossible to deal effectively with the problem of prostitution, or kerb crawling, in chronic areas. The answer is not to say, "You must bear the prostitution equivalent of the white man's burden so that the rest of the neighbourhood in a city or county is not afflicted by it. If we take effective action in your area, it will only spread somewhere else. So tough luck for you, the residents of Bedford hill, King's Cross and Walthamstow."

That is not so. We need a simple, effective and straightforward law which allows us to deal with kerb crawling, whether it is a manifestation of a particular red light district problem or whether it happens in a leafy lane in an area hitherto untouched by the problem. A woman there may be walking home at night, as she is perfectly entitled to do in a free society, and someone may come up in a car and start making suggestions. I must point out to the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish that that is one of the most desperately unpleasant experiences for a woman. A woman with whom I work was a victim of kerb crawling a year or two ago and she was desperately upset by it. It is an awful experience. That is why I am saying that we are not dealing with a problem that it would be nice to tackle, but which does not really matter very much. We shall fail in our duty if we do not deal with this problem and leave women without sensible redress.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : I am well aware of the problem of people being accosted in the street in areas that are unlike those with which we are dealing in the Bill. Is the Minister saying that the Bill is designed to deal with that? If he looks carefully at clause 1, he will see that it is not designed to deal with that problem. It is a separate problem. He would worry many people if he suggested that the Bill could be used against any man approaching any woman along any road.

Mr. Mellor : The Bill can be used in that way. Once again, with the greatest respect, the hon. Gentleman is not doing himself much credit. It would be bad enough if he knew the parameters of the matter and then took a different view. In fact, each of his interventions suggests that he does not know what he is talking about, which is sad but true. The essence of the Bill is that it gives relief not only to hard-pressed people in areas where there are a series of cases of prostitution, but to my wife, to the wives of other hon. Members and to female Members when they are walking down the street late at night and are accosted by a man in circumstances where it is not an unreasonable imposition to say that his action is not proper and that the man renders himself liable to prosecution. There is a great gap in the present law. After sustained efforts by the police, the number of prosecutions reached about 600 last year. However, that is the tip of the iceberg. The reason is that the law is hedged around by qualifications which were included only under the most extreme duress, because it would not otherwise have been possible for the Sexual Offences Act 1985 to be passed. The qualifications were put in with a clear warning of what the consequences would be.

By one of those happy coincidences that make life so exciting, I found in The Times law report on page 38 today the case of Darroch v. the Director of Public Prosecutions. It was a case in the divisional court about the Sexual Offences Act. What does it reveal? First, although the man beckoned a prostitute in an attempt to get her into his car,

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and although the divisional court found that the magistrates were fully entitled to say that that was an act of solicitation, he was entitled to be acquitted because it happened only once. In such a clear-cut case, I cannot see the logic of making it not a criminal offence and of allowing people to do it twice. If I walk down the street and snatch a woman's handbag, people do not say that I had better do the same to another woman or it will not be an offence. For the life of me, I cannot see the logic in that.

Secondly--this is more pertinent to the concerns of the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish--the divisional court upheld the contention of those acting for the appellant that merely driving around a red light district was not an offence and that the magistrates were not entitled to see that in itself as an act of solicitation. I rely on that to prove a point to which I shall come later if the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish persists with his other amendments. It would be wrong for any hon. Member to proceed on the basis that he believes that the authorities cannot be trusted with the law because it will inevitably be used oppressively. The Darroch case and the care it was given by the divisional court are a sign of how seriously the courts take even pieces of legislation with which, I dare swear, they are no more happy than we are. Nobody likes to see somebody escape on a relatively spurious technicality, but it was made quite clear, as it would no doubt be in any similar case, that the requirements of the law are for more than what one would call potentially innocent activities.

I got a bit bored in 1985 with the man who stops a lady merely to ask the way to the Dog and Duck public house--although I dare say that we may hear about him again in 1990. One may get bad directions once and one may approach someone else, but in the intervening five years, I do not know of many people who have merely asked for the Dog and Duck and have had their lives ruined by being arrested.

Those who say that the Bill is potentially oppressive have a heavy burden to come forward with some examples. The evidence is that the courts have taken their duties under the Sexual Offences Act seriously and have not hesitated to make it clear that, even in a good cause, the rules cannot be bent, and that firm and clear guidance is given in each case.

The consequence of the Darroch case was that somebody who was plainly soliciting--the divisional court said that the magistrates were entitled to regard it as an act of solicitation--and about whom there was evidence that he had previously been found in the company of a prostitute in a stationary car, was not convicted. What message does that send out about the seriousness of Parliament's resolve? This week--quite rightly, I dare say-- we stood here criticising the football authorities for slapping with the inside of a glove when dealing with the problems of football hooliganism. The present state of the law on soliciting is barely even a slap with the inside of a glove. It is a wilful abdication of Parliament's responsibility to put in a coherent and cogent set of legal arrangements.

I will seek to meet the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish on some points. I have discussed that with my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham, the promoter of

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the Bill, and with the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Randall). I shall be able to show him ways in which we can monitor the consequences of removing the word "persistently" to show our sincerity in not wanting to see the law used oppressively. However, it is clear that, as long as the law contains the word "persistently", the areas that sought redress from Parliament in 1985 will come back to Parliament for redress because their redress will be at best partial. Some people can cock a snook at the enforcement of the law in a way that I seriously suggest should not lead us, especially after the relatively effortless passage of the Bill so far, to let the Bill become blocked on the whim of one or two hon. Members.

Mr. Andrew F. Bennett : The Minister is misleading the House if he is saying that simply removing the word "persistently" will solve these problems. I ask him to think carefully. Some people who go into red light areas do so with the attitude of high risk, so it will not make a lot of difference if their chances of being caught are increased. It will simply increase their excitement to come to the area. I am also not convinced that greater policing will solve the problem. If the Minister said that by passing the Bill we should solve the problem of prostitution, I should have some sympathy for him. However, all he is saying is that we shall simply change the type of problem. I should have liked him to spend a little time addressing the question of what happens if we simply move people from one area to another. [Interruption.]

10.30 am

Mr. Mellor : The hon. Gentleman's hon. Friend the Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) represents an area that suffers from these problems. He is also an experienced solicitor of many years standing. His response to the hon. Gentleman's remarks was, "Rubbish." Alas, even I cannot improve on that description.

Of course, no law that Parliament passes can solve the problem of itself. It can be solved only if the law is properly and sensibly policed. The police will face difficult decisions about what resources to give, what tactics to use, how to deal with the problem of a spillover into other areas and so on. However, if we give them a simple, effective and fair law, at least they will have a good chance of success.

The police cannot opt out and say that, simply because Parliament has failed in its duty, so too can the police. They must at least try to offer some redress to those living in the affected areas. A clear, simple, straightforward law, which also has the virtue of being fair, will make it easier for the police because, for the first time, they will have an opportunity to deal with these people. If someone is an exhibitionist, I should be only too happy if he put on an exhibition for the local magistrates court, which could then deal with him. What is so wrong at the moment is that he can put on an exhibition every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and twice on a Friday and get away with it. That is not an ornament to the way in which we deal with these matters.

On the point about deleting the word "persistently" from the 1985 Act, I shall make the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish what I hope he will accept is a sensible offer of a framework within which we can consider these matters. New clause 2 is an evasion, not an acceptance of responsibility. Parliament will do itself no credit if it accepts new clause 2. I hope that, as the morning

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wears on, the hon. Gentleman will increasingly recognise that he is in a minority. Having raised the point and having, as I believe he will, received some substantive commitments about how we will proceed, there would be nothing disgraceful about him then retiring, thinking that he has done the best service that he can. If the Bill does not make progress today, it will be an abdication of responsibility by Parliament, and I should be thoroughly ashamed of that.

Mr. Stuart Randall (Kingston upon Hull, West) : The notion of the criminal justice system being operated by a local authority is quite unacceptable to the Labour party. New clause 2 would mean that the Metropolitan police would encounter no-go areas in places affected by kerb crawling. They would have to consult a map to find out what parts of the London metropolitan area they could police. It could be that with a street falling between two boroughs, the police could pursue crime on one side but not on the other. New clause 2 is not acceptable. It would not allow the criminal justice system to operate in any logical and rational way. It would not allow the police the operational right to pursue crime.

I hope that the House will not spend too much time debating new clause 2. As the Minister said, this is not a party matter ; it is one of great substance that has a profound effect on the lives of many people living in certain parts of London, and also in other parts of the country. The hon. Member for Streatham (Sir W. Shelton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Mr. Cox) have strongly highlighted that. It is a problem of great magnitude. The Bill is part of the armoury we need to deal with the problem. I accept that local authorities have a role to play, such as erecting one-way-street signs. Unfortunately, the 1985 Act does not really work. If we retain the word "persistently" those living in areas affected by kerb crawling will be deeply distressed.

I well understand the two sides to the argument--first, that we need a law that works and protects people against kerb crawlers, and secondly, the preservation of civil liberties. I have considerable respect for the parliamentary skills of my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett). If he pursues new clause 2 and his other amendments, he could wreck the Bill. That would be sad and the Labour party would want to dissociate itself from that. I say to him, with all respect, that he has gone overboard on the civil liberties aspect. We should always be vigilant on civil liberties issues, but we must accept the Bill as it stands.

I welcome the Minister's suggestion--I do not want to be too specific, as I know that he is still thinking about it--that he can meet my hon. Friend's concerns. I imagine that he will write to the Attorney-General, perhaps suggesting that a circular be sent to the Crown prosecution service asking it to ensure that civil liberties are properly taken into account. The Bill is the best deal that we can get. I would be deeply distressed if my hon. Friend used his great skills--indeed, we are all at his disposal today--to block the Bill. I hope that he will not do so. I hope that he will accept the reasonableness of amending the 1985 Act by this Bill, so providing legislation that will work, but that will also protect people's civil liberties. If we can do that we shall have served our purpose as a House of Commons. If we reject the Bill women will be the major losers. That distresses me very much. I have discussed the matter with the leadership of my party and it is agreed that women

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could be the losers. That is not acceptable, certainly to the Labour party, to hon. Members from other parties, or to my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish.

The 1985 Act and the Bill are not about prostitution per se but about kerb crawlers. They are about people who can put their hand in their pocket and pull out £100, or however much it costs to buy a prostitute for the evening. We are not discussing the merits or demerits of prostitution but the kerb crawlers who have damaged some areas in which people who are often on low incomes, although not exclusively, live. The places affected by prostitution tend to be poorer areas and it is the more middle class people with their big company cars and perks who have the cash to come in and cause such disruption. I hope that today we shall not pursue the matter of prostitution per se.

I hope that the appeal that I have made to the House will be heeded. It is the best deal that we can reach. The people of London, and other parts of the country where prostitution is at its highest will welcome the measure if it is accepted. I sincerely hope that it will be.

Mr. John Fraser (Norwood) : My credentials for speaking in the debate are that I was born in an area such as we are discussing and grew up there. My mother, who is over 80, still lives there. Also, the area is on the margins of my constituency, so it is not distant from me in any way.

I wish to tell my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) in a comradely fashion that kerb crawling is a serious problem that afflicts people living in Wandsworth and Lambeth. On another occasion he held up the Bromley London Borough Council (Crystal Palace) Bill which would have provided employment in my constituency. It had the support of the Bromley Labour group and was not opposed by either Southwark or Lambeth councils. He held up the Bill for about six months. If I held up Bills that affected his constituency, there would be some comradely distress, if not anger, about the behaviour of one hon. Member concerning the problems in another hon. Member's constituency or borough. I ask my hon. Friend to understand that we have a problem in my area and it needs to be addressed.

I do not dismiss the point that my hon. Friend made about civil liberties, which I shall discuss later. I hope that he understands that there is a serious problem for residents, and for women in particular. I hope that he will approach the Bill in that spirit. I hope that, if some compromise on civil liberties can be reached, he will find it acceptable and allow the Bill a reasonably rapid passage through the House.

So far, we have discussed the problem of residents, but there is also a problem for prostitutes. The life of the prostitute on the street is by no means a happy one. Frequently their money is taken from them at the end of the evening or the day's work. They are subjected to the most vicious violence. They are often drug addicts who are on the streets for that reason. Street prostitution, violence and extortion all go together. I believe that it is about time we shifted the balance to make the polluter pay, as it were. In this context, the polluter is the kerb crawler.

My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish said that there were other ways of approaching the problem of kerb crawling, such as providing street lighting, traffic schemes and the like. Lambeth is charge-capped. Unfortunately, we have a great deal of crime other than soliciting for prostitution. We are entitled

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