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Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. We must stick to the rules of the House. I remind the House again that Third Reading debates are very narrow and restricted to what is in the Bill. The hon. Member for Brent, East (Mr. Livingstone) would be out of order were he to go beyond that.
Mr. Livingstone : I accept that, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should like to respond in more detail to the hon. Member for Streatham because the Bill is bad enough already. It
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represents once again a massive extension of police powers and the potential risk for massive upheaval and destruction of individuals' lives if they are caught by the provision. There are many good things in the Bill. What I regret most about it is that I would like to have been able to vote for the provision which removes the nonsense that a boy under the age of 14 cannot commit rape or have sexual intercourse. It is wise to include that in the Bill. As with the debate that we had on embryo research legislation, where a completely different matter was introduced, I do not understand the direct connection between the two issues.Although both issues are in the Bill, kerb crawling and the measures in the Bill to try to restrict it bear no relation to the Bill's other major aspect--the removal of the presumption in law that a boy under 14 cannot commit an act of sexual intercourse. We all know that that is nonsense. There have been instances of nine-year-old boys sexually molesting girls and that is something which should be stopped. That aspect should have stood on its own. If that were the only provison that the legislation contained I have no doubt that it would have been unanimously agreed to in the House. That is why I put my name to a series of amendments to remove the other part of the legislation. I want to vote for the good and wise measure that removes a ridiculous anomaly in British law. I shall be happy to justify my actions to my constituents because they will look at the legislation in the context of other laws that have been abused. My constituents have often been subjected to the abuse of legal procedures, either in the courts or by the odd police officer who has completely misused legislation. They will see the Bill as another step in that direction and as legislation which removes their civil liberties. I should be happy to invite the hon. Member for Streatham to have a debate in my constituency about my actions because my constituents, while they would be happy and delighted to welcome the provision relating to removing the presumption in law that a boy under 14 cannot commit rape, would be extremely worried about extending existing law further to include kerb crawling. They would take the view that the Bill would not solve the problem.
If I had been persuaded, either by the hon. Member for Streatham or the Minister of State, that the Bill would solve the problem. I would have voted for it. If I had been assured that the legislation would drive kerb crawlers off the streets while protecting innocent people I would have been happy to support it. But while we have heard many good protestations of the best intentions, we have not had the firm, specific, legal amendments to make the Bill safe legislation. Therefore, I draw attention not to the clause with which I agree relating to boys under the age of 14, but to the Bill's core which has caused dissension. I do not think that today there has been more than a passing mention of clause 2. I regret that the Bill is almost like a composite of bits and pieces and does not achieve the response that we would like, which would have been the House unanimously agreeing to clause 2. Clearly, there is not unanimity
Looking around the House, I note that for legislation which has invoked such passion among those present, it is surprising that more hon. Members have not turned up to debate it. There are about 650 hon. Members, but there
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has not been a vote here today which has registered the presence of more than 45. If this is such a major issue for people like me who worry about its impact on civil liberties or for people like the hon. Member for Streatham--or my hon. Friend the Member for Norwood who represents the neighbouring constituency--who are on balance more worried about kerb crawling, it is surprising that the Chamber has not been packed. On a couple of votes we came close to not being able to muster the requisite number to allow the subject to continue to be discussed. I suspect that the Bill deals with a narrow area of law and with a small part of the country where the problem of kerb crawling is admittedly an abomination. I was born and brought up close to one of these areas and I represent a constituency in Parliament where this legislation would make no more difference than did my proposal for a traffic management scheme.I used to serve as a member of Camden council, whose town hall is adjacent to Argyll square, which is a major centre of prostitution. Nothing in the legislation would stop that. The problem there was that most of the police activity took place in the day time ; in the evening there were virtually no arrests, so evening kerb crawlers were subject to little pressure from police officers even though the problem was much less oppressive and offensive during the day. There were two types of prostitutes. Those who worked in the afternoon were not linked into the structure of pimping, whereas those who worked in the evening were and were probably linked into organised crime. Despite that, police pressure was put on in the afternoon, not the evening. If this legislation had been in operation then, a few dozen kerb crawlers might have been picked up but I doubt whether it would have been much of a deterrent. Major television programme makers turned up to film what was going on but hardened kerb crawlers were prepared to carry on driving around Argyll square even though they knew there was a risk of being filmed. Unfortunately, the subsequent documentaries blanked out the faces of the kerb crawlers.
My guess is that some men will think that the risk of exposure under this legislation is too great and will stop kerb crawling, but I imagine that they will scuttle off to some other area where they hope there will not be the same police presence, or they may find themselves linked into a network of brothels and stop kerb crawling for that reason, but I suspect that they will be a small minority. Just as the penalties for many more serious crimes do not deter the criminal I do not believe that the hardened kerb crawler, with his different perspective on life, will be dissuaded by the small risk of arrest under this Bill.
The problem is to do with the innocent person who happens to be passing by. Perhaps I am naive but I confess that I had been walking through Argyll square for 18 months before I realised that there was prostitution there. I just thought that there were a lot of young people out late on the streets. What would have happened to me if I had stopped and chatted to one of them and if I had happened to be driving? As it happens, I do not drive, so I am safe. This is one of the few Acts of Parliament that could not be used against me by this repressive Government, but they have enough others to be going on with.
My anxieties have not been assuaged by the debate. If the Minister had given form to some of his commitments that would have been fine.
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There has been some disagreement between me and my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. Randall) about the level of penalties. He spoke with some passion, depicting wealthy men driving through working class areas looking to pick up women with whom to have sex. He described men who could pull £100 out of their back pockets. But the study of prostitution in the King's Cross area suggests that although a small number of well-off business men drive through these areas to pick up prostitutes, most people using their services are not well off. Many of them are on low incomes and will not be dissuaded by a fine of £1,000 because they could not raise such an amount anyway.I should like to see fines related to people's income and their ability to pay. Let us consider the case of a person who is without shame, the wealthy business man who does not give a damn about what may be said, or perhaps a newspaper proprietor who knows that his newspaper will not report it if he is caught kerb crawling. Such people will not be deterred by a fine of £1,000 because they could easily pay it. If Robert Maxwell or Rupert Murdoch were caught kerb crawling it would be no problem for them to pay a fine of £1,000. A message to the magistrates that we want to see much more severe fines would create an intolerable burden. If people cannot pay it would lead to the seizure and distraint of their goods or may well lead to them being imprisoned. All those problems could arise. The part of the Bill about fines opens up the prospect of yet more problems and more discrimination in the field of justice. The Bill might be more sensible if it contained a method of penalising people that would really hurt them such as, for example, a long period of community service. My hon. Friend the Member for Norwood is laughing. Perhaps he would like to intervene and share the joke with us. At one time I was the GLC member for his constituency. He was the Member of Parliament at that time and we did not have the immediate problem of kerb crawling in that area. The Bill would not have helped if there had been such a problem.
The Bill taps a vein of genuine worry, which I share, about what can be done to protect women who are harassed by people driving around an area asking for sex. If the Bill could solve that problem I would vote for it, but it will not solve it, it will make matters worse. It will not curtail the amount of kerb crawling but will lead to an increasing number of ordinary innocent people being entrapped.
Mr. Fraser : As my hon. Friend knows I share his concern about civil liberties, and I have made that clear in Committee and on Report. My hon. Friend asks whether the Bill will reduce the problem of kerb crawling. The difficulty at the moment is that for a charge of persistent soliciting to succeed it is necessary for four to six police officers to be involved in the investigation to bring forward the requisite evidence. That raises a difficulty in terms of devoting police resources to other important matters in my constituency. I accept that the police manpower that is necessary to obtain convictions is quite disproportionate to the manpower that is required to gather evidence for other types of convictions. I share my hon. Friend's doubts about civil liberties although I am more satisfied than he is about the assurances that we have been given. Needing four to six police officers to obtain a conviction is a serious
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difficulty and a waste of police resources. The Bill will be effective because it will mean that fewer police officers or other witnesses will be needed to obtain a conviction.Mr. Livingstone : I share my hon. Friend's anxiety. As a Member of Parliament and a solicitor he has much experience in this field. Existing police resources are not wisely used, although not for any wicked or venal reason. It should be possible for the Metropolitan police to release enough officers to ensure that when a charge is made it is accurate and will stand up in court. We have talked about three, four or five police officers being used to obtain a conviction. London has 26,000--or is it 28,000?--police officers. There has been a major increase in police numbers but we do not see the extra officers on the streets.
I draw my hon. Friend's attention to the study of police in Liverpool. It shows that at any one time only 3 per cent. of the police force was on patrol. The problem that the hon. Member for Norwood raises would be resolved if the Minister would say that he will direct the Metropolitan police to switch resources into providing an adequate level of community policing--policing that works with the community and carries the consensus of the community. The Greater London council argued for such policies from 1981, while I was leader. If that happened, there would be no shortage of resources to gain convictions under the present legislation.
It worries me when we respond to legislation that is not working, either because it has missed the target or because of inadequate police resources, by passing yet more legislation that introduces further constraints on civil liberty. Instead, we should make the police whom we have, and for whom we are paying, patrol the streets. It may be bad for women to be harassed by kerb crawlers, but it is much worse for them to be raped or mugged. Some 40 or 50 per cent. of women in London are frightened to leave their homes after dark. The Bill will not solve that problem. The only thing that will reassure women and get them out of their homes after dark is a regular police presence on their streets, as there used to be in London when I was a child. The Bill will not do that.
Women will not look at the Bill and say, "Oh, that's all right. It needs only one police officer to identify a man approaching someone once in the street, so that will solve the problem." However, if they had seen a massive shift in resources to community policing, they would be much happier. Such a move would require no legislation. It requires only a direction from the Home Secretary to the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. Such a move would have the support of the whole House, especially those of us who have argued for too long that we need a police presence on the streets. That would deter not only kerb crawlers but muggers, rapists and--a crime with an increasing occurrence--murderers.
I share the concern of hon. Members on both sides of the House about the fact that women are frightened to leave their homes. They are frightened not just in areas subjected to kerb crawling. Because prostitutes and their clients are regularly on the streets, and this leads to frequent visits by police, even if they are not there in adequate numbers to tackle the problem--there are sufficient people around to deter other crimes. A woman is less likely to be raped, mugged or murdered in such circumstances than she is in a poorly lit, inadequately policed and unfrequented street.
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Therefore, we need legislation that tackles the problems of all women. These problems do not affect only London just as the Bill does not apply only to London. Many other areas suffer from the same basic problem. My guess is that the Liverpool study, which identified only 3 per cent. of police on patrol at any one time, shows a broad pattern that is repeated elsewhere.How will this legislation be interpreted by the judiciary? Perhaps that is a grand word for magistrates, but presumably, on appeal, somebody who has been convicted could work his way quite high up the legal tree. If I am wrong, I will give way to one of my legal friends.
Mr. Fraser : To be fair, he could not.
Mr. Livingstone : I thank my hon. Friend, but he disturbs me even more. I am not a lawyer, but as leader of the GLC I gave an awful lot of money to barristers and I spent a lot of time with them, although I never picked up the basic principles of law. I had hoped that someone convicted under the Bill, if it is enacted, would be able to appeal all the way to Lord Lane--God help him if he got Lord Lane, given his broad range of reactions. I am even more worried if there will not be a right of appeal.
Mr. Fraser : There could be an appeal to the Crown court. One could get a retrial in the Crown court, but it would not usually go further than that.
Mr. Livingstone : My hon. Friend reassures me because in my view the worst part of the legal system is its highest level. The Court of Appeal is the judicial bench of the House of Lords. It is reactionary and divorced from reality, largely I suspect because the Prime Minister has appointed them all personally and has managed to find people even more profoundly reactionary and contemptuous of human and civil rights than herself.
Once again, the bulk of these cases will be sorted out in the magistrates courts. That worries me as my experience of magistrates courts is not a happy one. There was a gross miscarriage of justice at my expense when a security guard smacked me in the mouth. I did not feel that the magistrates court was a safeguard. Unfortunately the Bill will mean that the problem will be dealt with in the magistrates courts and that is a tragedy. Perhaps we need a judicial system under which a wider range of experience produces a better understanding of the problems.
There is a general bias among lay magistrates and stipendary magistrates in their broad commitment to support the police. That is understandable as there should be such a commitment throughout society. The legislation puts more trust in the police and removes some of the constraints on them. Therefore it is only to be expected that magistrates would be broadly sympathetic to the police and would give them the benefit of the doubt. Juries take the same position, and all the evidence shows a well documented predisposition to give the police the benefit of the doubt when there is a conflict of evidence between a police officer and someone who is the subject of prosecution. The Bill enshrines that and takes it a stage further by removing one of the checks and safeguards that have been invaluable constraints on the abuse of the 1985 Act.
Leaving aside the non-controversial issue in that we accept that, of course, a boy under 14 can commit rape and
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should be subject to penalties, the core of the argument is the balance between the rights of the police and their ability to operate as they wish, and the right of an individual who might be entrapped. I listened carefully to the speech of the hon. Member for Streatham when he talked about the problems in his constituency. Those problems will not go away even if the Bill is passed. The Bill will simply lead to greater concern and chaos in the lives of those who are likely to be arrested by mistake.There have been a small number of well documented cases in which people have been set up. Magistrates courts have been presented with evidence that individuals have been entrapped by the police particularly in areas where gay men collect. Not so long ago an hon. Member made the mistake of wandering into a gay bar and was prosecuted by the Metropolitan police who alleged that he pinched the bottom of a plain clothes police officer who was particularly attractive.
In cases involving sexual crime there are well documented instances of the police using entrapment and acting as provocateurs and of policemen pretending to be gay men in public houses and gay bars. When a Member of Parliament was caught in exactly the same way as the Bill would allow others to be caught, I challenged the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, Sir Kenneth Newman, and asked him how he could justify attractive young police officers dressed in civilian clothes hanging around in gay bars waiting for someone to pinch their bottoms when kerb crawling, mugging and rape are at record levels. That was a grave misuse of police resources.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman is discussing the conduct of the police and the way in which they operate. He must restrict his remarks to what is in the Bill. As he said a short while ago, the Bill is narrow and restrictive. I ask him to take his own advice as well as mine.
Mr. Livingstone : Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall be as narrow and restrictive as possible.
We know that a Member of this place was entrapped in a gay bar. Another hon. Member or a member of the public, could be set up in the context of the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent people being set up. A motorist driving innocently along a street could be ensnared so as to bump up the arrest figures in the area. There tends to be a high level of misdeeds on the part of officers who are involved in alleged sexual offences. About 20 years ago, it was revealed that police officers were involved in a fraud in which they were being paid by people operating in the porn trade. In a sense, the Bill would further entrap the police in an area in which it is already difficult for them to operate. It is an area in which there are boundless opportunities for corruption. That applies equally to sexual crime and drug offences which tend to cause a breakdown of standards and some times, lamentably, examples of police corruption. I am aware that there is much activity within the Chamber and that I am not receiving the rapt attention of all hon. Members. I am waiting for something nasty to happen after the plotting has been completed. That activity should not distract from the basic issues. Our purpose must be to balance the civil liberties of all citizens, police powers and the right of women to be able freely to walk along our streets at night without harassment.
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It is unfortunate that only a minority of hon. Members were prepared to discuss the issues today. That is not the fault of those who are passionately committed to one side of the argument or the other, and who have been in the Chamber throughout our proceedings. The Bill has attracted those who are committed. Although the Bill is national in its context, it is directed specifically at only a few areas. Those who have been in their places today represent constituencies where there is a kerb-crawling problem, or constituencies that are adjacent to them, and that is how it should be. It is regrettable that an amendment which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish which would have made the problem specific--Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot return to amendments on which the House has come to a decision.
Mr. Livingstone : Only local Members, as it were, are in the Chamber to discuss the Bill. None of us is present as a national Member of a national parliament. Those who are in their places have been brought here as a result of activities in local communities. A decade ago I went down the road that the hon. Member for Streatham has taken. It involved more restrictions, more constraints and more laws. Everyone concedes that the 1985 legislation has failed, and the Bill might well fail. The commitments given by the Minister of State, Home Office, the hon. and learned Member for Putney (Mr. Mellor), suggest that the Government expect the Bill to fail. It seems that they suspect that it is flawed. Why should we need all the commitments that were given by the Minister on behalf of the Government? He told us that the Government would monitor the effects of the Bill because of the danger that things will go wrong. He said that he would give special instructions to the police and Crown prosecution service to ensure that the Bill is implemented in accordance with the wishes of the House.
This cannot be good legislation. Legislation should be drawn so tightly that it cannot be open to misinterpretation. Although the hon. Member for Streatham has drawn the legislation as well as he can to tackle an almost insoluble problem--and I am certain that he has had tremendous help from Officers of the House--once we get into the area of sexual crime, it is almost impossible to draft legislation that will provide the response that we want. The Bill is flawed because it falls into that camp.
This is a short Bill, no more than one sheet of paper, yet much of it, which is uncontroversial, deals with the ability of boys under 14 years of age to have sexual intercourse--which only a fool would deny was possible. The rest of the Bill deals with the problem of kerb crawling. The Bill deals with the balance of interest between local communities that are subject to the appalling consequences of kerb crawling and the rights of the individual woefully inadequately. If the Bill had been in operation for the past 20 years, it would not have stopped Bedford hill from being a centre of prostitution and kerb crawling, as it is today. Nothing in the Bill would have stopped the area of Stoke Newington that I represented-- Finsbury park--from being a centre of prostitution today. I have judged
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the Bill on that basis. I thought about whether the Bill would give residents in my area relief from the pressures of kerb crawling, as I tried to do.Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South) : If the previous legislation of the Greater London council and the Sexual Offences Act 1985 have both failed, why does my hon. Friend oppose another attempt to curb the problem?
Mr. Livingstone : I thought that I had made that clear at some point in the past five and a half hours. I fear that we are seeing a further erosion of the rights of the individual and I see no evidence that the Bill will work. I have put forward one proposal after another in the hours of debate today which could not only stop kerb crawling but would make a major impact on reducing prostitution. I told the House, as I repeat now to my hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Bermingham), that the way to solve the problem is not the Bill, but by tackling the social consequences. The Bill simply increases the level of state control, and police powers and repression.
I am prepared to say that I seek to stop the Bill in the hope that that will produce better legislation to relieve the problems of the residents of Streatham and the constituents of hon. Members in areas where kerb crawling has become an intolerable problem. The Government may be unwilling to come forward with proper legislation, but I hope that they will do so. Better legislation might have the support of all hon. Members if the Bill fails at Third Reading. As we failed to carry the amendments, this is still a weak Bill.
I very much hope that the Government will find a way to bring legislation to the House on the subject of boys under the age of 14, which would be likely to complete its passage in a matter of hours. There is no dissent about those provisions in the Bill. Such a Bill would help to clear up the ridiculous legal anomaly which assumes that a 14-year-old boy cannot commit sexual intercourse. That hinders proper methods to cope with young offenders who increasingly, perhaps influenced by the television or by rather disreputable videos, mimic the behaviour that they see and sexually harass or, in the worst cases, rape young girls. It would be a tragedy if the provisions on that problem, which have the consent of the whole House, were lost simply because they have been lumped in with the wholly different legal and social problem of kerb crawling.
Having examined the Bill, I am amazed that it was ever allowed on to the agenda of the House. It covers two wholly different topics. I am surprised that there was not some rule of the House to knock it out earlier. Clearly, there is not and I still have much to learn. I hope that we can return to this part of the legislation, which has massive support in the House, at a time when it can be carried into law. I cannot support the other part of the legislation, which I believe would have a devastating impact on the lives of innocent people who would be entrapped.
The matter is of such importance that the Home Secretary should have come to the House today. Had he done so, and had he said that, although the legislation was flawed he would consider a massive shift of police resources--
It being half-past Two o'clock, the debate stood adjourned. Debate to be resumed upon Friday 18 May.
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Private Members' Bills
TERM AND QUARTER DAYS(SCOTLAND) BILL
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean) : No amendments on consideration.
Order for Third Reading read.
Mr. Hugo Summerson (Walthamstow) : On behalf of the hon. Member in charge, I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL
Not amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : No amendments on consideration.
Order for Third Reading read.
Mr. Ivor Stanbrook (Orpington) : On behalf of the hon. Member in charge, I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION(SPEED LIMITS) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 18 May.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ACCESS TO INFORMATION) (DISABLED PERSONS) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
NATIONAL LOTTERY BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 8 June.
COALMINING SUBSIDENCE(DAMAGE, ARBITRATION, PREVENTIONAND PUBLIC AWARENESS) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
HARBOURS, DOCKS AND PIERSCLAUSES ACT 1847 (AMENDMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 22 June.
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CHLOROFLUOROCARBONS (CONTROL) BILL [LORDS]
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 18 May.
TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT 1984 (AMENDMENT) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
ADOPTION (AMENDMENT) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 15 June.
DOGS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 15 June.
INDECENT DISPLAYS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Not moved.
POLL TAX (RESTORATION OF INDIVIDUAL PRIVACY) BILL Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 8 June.
RAPE IN MARRIAGE (OFFENCE) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Second Reading deferred till Friday 8 June.
HARE COURSING (ABOLITION) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton) : Now, Sir.
Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Question is--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Second Reading what day?
Second Reading deferred till Friday 8 June.
Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South) : On a point of order--
Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. I must put the remaining orders first.
RADIOACTIVE MATERIAL(ROAD TRANSPORT) BILL [MONEY] Queen's Recommendation having been signified--
Resolved,
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Radioactive Material (Road Transport) Bill, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of--
(1) any sums required by the Secretary of State for making payments by way of remuneration, allowances or otherwise to inspectors appointed by him under the Act ; and
(2) any other expenses incurred by the Secretary of State in consequence of the provisions of the Act.-- [Mr. Nicholas Baker.]
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