House of Commons Hansard Debates for 14 May 1990

The Solicitor-General : The National Front does not arise from this question. As for saving money on the courts, if an increase in expenditure of about 80 per cent. in five years, with further increases this year, is thought to be saving money, I should be interested to scrutinise the Opposition's proposed budget.

Legal Aid

44. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Attorney-General how many individuals were given legal aid costing £1,000 or less in the past year ; and if he will make a statement.

The Solicitor-General : The great majority of legal aid payments for criminal cases in the magistrates court in 1988-90 were less than £1,000. The average bill for civil legal aid in 1988-89 was £1,153, and my hon. Friend will find fuller details in the Legal Aid Board's annul report, a copy of which is in the Library.

Mr. Greenway : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the Kray brothers should repay any legal aid that they may have received, plus interest, out of the £266,000 so disgracefully paid to them for the film rights of their evil crimes? Will he see whether more can be done for people in need of small sums in legal aid, as he has said is already happening?

The Solicitor-General : In so far as any criminal has resources from any source, including the sort of source mentioned, they would be taken into account in estimating legal aid entitlement. My hon. Friend was right to suggest that there has been an increase in the amount available for legal aid. During the past 11 years it has increased from £100 million to £607 million.

Mr. Fraser : Does the Solicitor-General acknowledge that one reason why legal aid payments have increased is that the number of criminals has increased under a Tory Government? Does he further acknowledge that there is a crisis in the legal aid service because settlement for legal aid practitioners has been below the combination of the earnings index and the retail prices index? Will he and the Lord Chancelor ensure that, in the next legal aid settlement, the rate of remuneration for those carrying out legal aid work will not be lower than the rate of inflation which is chosen for those purposes?

The Solicitor-General : On the first point, the amount being spent on legal aid has risen rapidly during our time in office. On the second point about individual annual legal aid settlements, I am not sure that I accept that the settlement for the current year was below what was reasonably to be expected.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that although we want everyone to obtain justice, because of the legal aid system many people are opting for legal remedy who might otherwise settle their differences amicably? Has not it suddenly become a bottomless pit of

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taxpayers' money that is for ever expanding? Should not there be more careful scrutiny of applicants and the money that they repay afterwards?

The Solicitor-General : There should certainly be careful scrutiny. The growth in the small claims court has encouraged many more rapid and less expensive settlements. It has provided effective access to justice for cases involving below £500 and, from early next year, cases below £1,000. My hon. Friend touched on the point made by the hon. Member for Norwood (Mr. Fraser) about the increased amount of legal aid. It is not simply that additional money is being spent--it is the number of criminals who are being brought to trial under this Government as opposed to the level of crime.

Appeals

Mr. Simon Hughes : To ask the Attorney-General how many appeals against conviction and/or sentence were heard by the Court of Appeal during 1988-89, and so far during 1990, in which the appellant had been released from prison before the hearing of the appeal ; and if he will make a statement.

The Solicitor-General : In 1989, of 2,951 appeals, 23 appellants were released from prison and a further 43 were released on parole before the hearing of their appeals. The figures for 1990 to date are that, of 1,006 cases, two appellants were released from prison and 12 were released on parole before the hearing of their appeals.

Mr. Hughes : Is the Solicitor-General aware that it is unacceptable that someone should have his appeal heard after he has finished serving his sentence? That does the law no credit. Is not the legal system brought into disrepute every time an appeal is so long delayed that it is of little value to the prisoner and reduces his sentence not a jot?

The Solicitor-General : I agree with the hon. Gentleman in principle, but it must be realised that, for example, an 18-month sentence can lead to someone being released on parole in only just over six months. Of the cases coming forward, one third are ready within six months and 80 per cent. are ready within 12 months. The aim is always to bring on first those that are most urgent.

Al Fayed Brothers

46. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Attorney-General what contacts have taken place between Kleinwort Benson, bankers, and his Department in relation to the financing of the Al Fayed brothers over Harrods.

The Attorney-General (Sir Patrick Mayhew) : None, Sir.

Mr. Dalyell : May we have the Attorney-General's assurance that if one is rich enough, powerful enough and can get away with it, in such circumstances lying is now all right?

The Attorney-General : No, Sir.

Mr. Dykes : Does my right hon. and learned Friend realise that this unsatisfactory matter will not go away without further statements from the Government? Will he at least say today whether he has had contacts and discussions with Treasury Ministers about the position of Harrods Bank Ltd?

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The Attorney-General : I refer my hon. Friend to the statement made by the director of the Serious Fraud Office and the Director of Public Prosecutions on 1 March. They said that they were satisfied that every line of inquiry by the police had been properly followed through and that at the end of it there was insufficient evidence of an admissible nature in criminal proceedings to warrant bringing a prosecution in respect of any matter raised in the Department of Trade and Industry inspectors' report. That is the area for which I carry ministerial responsibility. If my hon. Friend wishes to raise further matters with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, he may do so.

Director of Public Prosecutions

47. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Attorney-General when he last met the Director of Public Prosecutions ; and what matters were discussed.

The Attorney-General : I last met the Director of Public Prosecutions on 5 April, when we discussed matters of departmental interest. My right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General met the Director on 25 April, in my absence abroad on departmental business.

Mr. Skinner : Next time, why does not the Attorney-General have a word with the Director of Public Prosecutions about Harrods? Why do not they examine that matter in detail? Is not the truth of the matter that there are people connected with Harrods, such as the Sultan of Brunei, who are very close to No. 10 and to the present Government generally? That is why they are getting away with it. Is not it the case that the Sultan of Brunei--whose surrogates, the Al Fayed brothers, run Harrods--is the same man who handed over £5 billion when the pound was in trouble against the dollar in 1986, and when the Prime Minister asked him to bail out the Government? Is not that at the bottom of it all?

The Attorney-General : I shall next see the Director of Public Prosecutions at half past four, but I shall not be raising any of those matters. The House, and possibly even the hon. Gentleman, may recall that publication of the report of the DTI inspectors into the Harrods affair was delayed for about 18 months. I dare say that, at the time, the hon. Gentleman was one of those who said that it was a cover-up, but in fact it was so that there should be no possible prejudice of any future prosecution by reason of the report's premature publication. It is a measure of the seriousness with which the two DTI inspectors viewed the possible criminality and the possibility of bringing proceedings in a criminal court that the report's publication was delayed for as long as it was.

OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT

Mozambique

54. Mr. Eadie : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the United Kingdom's response to the emergency appeal of the United Nations and Mozambiquan Government.

The Minister for Overseas Development (Mrs. Lynda Chalker) : As I told the House on 26 April, the

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Government have just pledged a further £3.5 million in emergency relief and 10,000 tonnes of food aid in response to the 1990 Mozambique emergency appeal.

Mr. Eadie : Although I appreciate the right hon. Lady's reply, is she aware that 4 million people were displaced in Mozambique and that one in three children there aged under five die? The Minister will be aware that the Mozambique Government's $136 million appeal has been underfunded. In view of her reply, and as the matter is becoming more urgent, will she re-examine that very serious problem?

Mrs. Chalker : Since 1987, we have pledged more than £55 million in emergency assistance, comprising emergency relief and food aid, and some £10 million last year--which included aid to Mozambique refugees. Particular attention was paid to the children among them. I will consider the hon. Gentleman's comments. Certainly we keep in regular contact, to ensure that we can help by every means

available--including Operation Hunger, a non-governmental organisation which is very active in the area, particularly in relation to children.

Mr. Burns : In view of the importance to Mozambique of prawn exports, what action are the Government taking to assist that important sector of the country's economy?

Mrs. Chalker : Forty per cent. of Mozambique's export earnings come from the prawn industry. We are providing over £3.5 million to rehabilitate the prawn fishing fleet, modernise its processing facilities and build a jetty. Mozambique's prawns are fished by European Community fishing vessels which land the prawns as EC products. Therefore the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) need have no fear that the prawns from Mozambique do not meet EC standards. The onus is already on those who contribute to the Mozambique economy through their fishing licences to reach the necessary standards. They do so. We hope that the industry will continue to be viable and to thrive.

Mrs. Clwyd : As Mozambique has the second highest death rate in the world, will the Minister condemn a new health threat facing Mozambique and other Third world countries? The vigorous promotion of very cheap and strong cigarettes by British American Tobacco will put an even greater strain on countries that are still fighting diseases such as malaria and tetanus. Will the Minister admit that the absence of international rules enables British American Tobacco to tell blatant lies about the safety of smoking? Is she prepared to join me in calling on BAT's shareholders to object at the annual general meeting on 31 May to BAT's making money by wilfully damaging the lungs of people in the Third world?

Mrs. Chalker : I am not sure that the hon. Lady's question has anything to do with the emergency appeal of the United Nations and Mozambiquan Government, but never mind. The hon. Lady knows that I share her concern about smoking. I shall look into what she said. In a free world it will always be up to the individual, but I understand her concern.

Mr. Teddy Taylor : How can the Minister say that she will look into this matter when she is well aware that every year at European Community meetings she and her colleagues have approved the spending of £600 million solely to subsidise the growing and dumping of high-tar

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tobacco in Third world countries? Would not it be a good idea if the Minister tried to do something about such a scandalous abuse of public money--the spending of £600 million of British and European taxpayers' money solely for the purpose of producing tobacco that no one in Europe wants, which we then dump at crazy, low prices in Mozambique and other Third world countries?

Mrs. Chalker : I note what my hon. Friend says, but he knows full well that this country does not support that sort of dumping. The matter is of considerable concern and is being dealt with.

Global Environmental Fund

55. Mr. Cummings : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he supports the French proposal to establish a global environmental fund at the World bank.

Mrs. Chalker : We warmly welcome the World bank's recent initiative in outlining a possible framework of international collaboration on global environmental issues. At the recent meeting of the development committee in Washington, we supported the proposal that the bank should carry out further work to elaborate its proposals, in consultation with interested parties.

Mr. Cummings : Does the Minister agree that the industrialised nations should not expect the developing nations to stall, postpone or cancel their development plans to protect the global environment unless they are compensated for doing so? Does she also agree that the British Government's stance at the Bergen conference in opposing a new mechanism, whereby the industrialised countries of the north would compensate Third world countries, is a disgrace and a shame?

Mrs. Chalker : A great deal more work is going on, initiated by us and other Ministers in the development committee, to explore the sort of help that developing countries will need when dealing with global environmental problems. The hon. Gentleman referred to the Bergen conference. I do not believe that we shall oppose anything at that conference that would help the developing countries.

Dame Peggy Fenner : I know that my right hon. Friend will share my pleasure that Britain is supporting the tropical forest action plan, which is just one aspect of our care for the environment. But has she seen the Friends of the Earth comment that casts doubt on the efficacy of the plan? Will my right hon. Friend look into that matter and reassure me that we are putting our money in the right place?

Mrs. Chalker : I assure my hon. Friend that the tropical forest action plan is a mechanism--it is no more than that. Each country that applies for action under it must have a worked-out national plan. In November I called at the Food and Agriculture Organisation conference for a total review. That review has been set up because we are not satisfied with the mechanism ; we are determined to ensure that every national forestry action plan is a worthy one, and we shall support it only if it is.

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Vietnam

56. Mr. Orme : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when Government Ministers last discussed Vietnam with the United States Government.

Mrs. Chalker : The Government keep in regular touch, both at ministerial and official level, with the United States Government on the problem of the Vietnamese boat people. I last discussed matters in Washington on 23 April.

Mr. Orme : Did the right hon. Lady raise with the United States Government their opposition to the International Monetary Fund assisting Vietnam? Does she agree that Vietnam's economy must be put right? If it is put right, that will resolve some of the boat people's problems, so it is urgent that action be taken now.

Mrs. Chalker : I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is urgent that the economy of Vietnam is put right. I have urged a positive response by the United States to the international financial institutions, and the general issue of arrears owed to the IMF, including those of Vietnam, is being considered by the fund and bank in Washington.

Mr. Butler : Did my right hon. Friend impress upon our American allies the necessity for them to open their doors to more Vietnamese boat people instead of berating us and the Hong Kong Government?

Mrs. Chalker : I discussed with the United States people whom I saw the need for repatriation and the need to carry through the comprehensive plan of action, because without it there is no prospect of solving the problem of the boat people in Hong Kong. I hope that the United States will see the wisdom of the total programme that was agreed under the comprehensive plan of action.

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Renewable Energy Sources

58. Mr. Jack Thompson : To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what aid Her Majesty's Government are giving to assist developing countries in developing renewable energy sources.

Mrs. Chalker : In 1988 expenditure from the bilateral aid programme on the development of renewable energy sources was some £15 million. In addition renewable energy components such as solar and wind-powered pumps, solar-powered refrigerators, solar water distillation and solar water heating have been incorporated in projects which are not primarily energy focused.

Mr. Thompson : Will the Minister take into account the fact that in developing countries there is a temptation to use fossil fuels with all the associated environmental problems when crude methods of burning them are used? Can greater emphasis be put on the better use of fossil fuels and of renewable sources?

Mrs. Chalker : The hon. Gentleman is right : fossil fuels create problems not only of ash disposal but of what they emit into the atmosphere. That is why we are looking with each country at power efficiency, linked closely to the environmental concern to which the burning of fossil fuels can give rise. But we shall also continue our research with the intermediate technology development group to ensure that we have more effective equipment that can use the renewable sources of energy.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker : Order. Mr. Tam Dalyell.

Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In conjunction with my right hon. Friend--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I called the hon. Gentleman to move his application under Standing Order No. 20, not to raise a point of order.

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