House of Commons Hansard Debates for 18 May 1990

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Mr. Alison : My hon. Friend, as a southern Member, does not appreciate the extent to which we in the north are still subject to a thrombosis in economic travel and development. There are no great airports anywhere near Yorkshire and Humberside. Yorkshire folk must travel to Manchester, 40 or 50 miles down the rather less-developed road system, to reach a decent international airport. There is a positive attraction in train travel because of the inner-city location of termini. That gives it a great advantage over air travel. The throwing away of the centre-of-the-web feature of railway termini is a profound disadvantage to the idea of locating the system at Stratford.

Mr. Simon Hughes : The right hon. Gentleman has become carried away with the prejudice of his argument. People will want to go direct to the continent without stopping in London. It matters not whether they travel through Stratford or any other station. They want to get under the channel and away. Other people may want to do business in London on the way. They can go to King's Cross, do their business and continue on to the continent. It is not the simple, only one desired form of travel option that the right hon. Gentleman suggests. That is a false analysis of the travel needs of people from his part of the world, who travel to Europe and sometimes stop in London. Stratford would not prejudice that, because they could travel to the centre of London.

Mr. Alison : The hon. Gentleman's analysis is wrong. There are two options : first, the through connection, ignoring London--there will be only too few such trains--and, secondly, the non-through connection--the ordinary InterCity train service. A business man travelling from Milan to the north of England or from the north to Milan must stop in London to change trains. No business man from Milan will expose himself to the necessity of travelling from Milan through the channel tunnel to Stratford, where he will have to catch an underground train to get to the inter- connecting InterCity train service because there will be no ordinary InterCity train service based at Stratford. Investment in an InterCity network link would be too expensive. The business man will have to take the underground to get to King's Cross to catch an InterCity train to the north. It is a profound throttling of the prospects of business men in the north getting into Europe and of the European business man getting into the north. I urge my hon. Friends to major on the King's Cross link, not Stratford, at all costs.

12 noon

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : I had not realised that the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison) was so much of a detached snob. Perhaps he has for too long answered questions on behalf of the Church Commissioners. I should like him to come to Stratford some time. I admit that it is not the most beautiful place on earth, even though I represent it, but his remarks were unworthy of him and unfair on the people who live in Stratford and in the east end in general. The hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) was right to say that the right hon. Gentleman is living in the past. He might have the time to gaze out of the window when travelling through the rolling countryside, but those who want to

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come to this country to do business want to get here as quickly as possible--and, given the right hon. Gentleman's views, probably want to get away as quickly as they can.

I welcome the Minister to his new office. I understand that in the past he was an accountant. That makes two accountants running the Department of Transport, as accountancy is also the Secretary of State's background. I look forward to the day when an engine driver or a bus driver is running the Department. Then, perhaps, we might have someone who is more acquainted with the needs of the travelling public. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who will be the next Secretary of State for Transport, will bring to the post some of the qualifications that he has acquired.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) on choosing this subject for debate. It gives the Minister an opportunity to acquaint himself with a significant issue. It is opportune that this important debate should be the first in his new post. As a number of hon. Members have said, it is a most unsatisfactory way to construct an enormously significant transport infrastructure. It is piecemeal, shoddy and inefficient. The Government are to blame for the mess in which we all now find ourselves. It is the most significant transport investment decision this century, but the manner in which the Government have approached it, right from the beginning, is grossly inadequate.

We are often lectured by Conservative Members on the efficiency of the private sector. They could hardly use the fiasco of the British contribution to the tunnel and the rail links as a sign of its efficiency. Original costs have escalated wildly from £4.8 billion to £7 billion and rising. The developers are now saying to the Government "Bail us out or it goes down." It is one of the flagship developments. The Prime Minister has stood at the Dispatch Box and made speeches throughout the country extolling such a wonderful example of the private sector. Now the Government have to bail it out.

I hope that the Minister will say whether a report in The Times today is true. It states :

"The Cabinet will decide next week whether to back proposals for the 68- mile Channel tunnel rail link with the injection of a £400 million subsidy, informed sources say."

Mr. Spearing : Bernard Ingham.

Mr. Banks : It was not Bernard Ingham ; the article said "informed sources".

I want to know whether the article was true. The Government made clear statements that there would be no public money--our money, taxpayers' money --for the project. We have always argued that that was not the way to do it. If taxpayers' money is now to be used to bail out the developers, who obviously had their calculations wrong, what will be the return for the British taxpayer? I am not in favour of bailing out private developers. Let them go bust and then we can pick it up for nothing. The Government must remember that their main fiduciary duty is not to private developers, but to the British taxpayers.

If we contrast the attitude of the British with that of the French, we come out rather poorly. There is close co-operation between the French Government and SNCF, the French nationalised railway system. Speaking as a citizen of this country, I feel almost ashamed that the SNCF has volunteered to put up the money for the British side of the infrastructure investment. What on earth are we

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doing? Must we rely on the French to put up the money for the British side of the development? The Government are reducing Britain to a lesser development status. That is atrocious and the Government should be ashamed of themselves.

The French work in close co-operation, but British Rail is narrow minded and the Government are bigoted. It is a decision of national and international significance. It is far too important to be left to British Rail and a bunch of bureaucrats with their limited and unimaginiative approach. Why should we take anything that British Rail says as right? It said that there would be only one London terminal and gave us estimates for the number of passengers. That has changed. Before it has even constructed the first terminal, it wants a second. It says that it must be at King's Cross. How can anyone trust British Rail's planning process? There should be an objective assessment of what is needed--not necessarily for London or even the south-east, but for the country as a whole, and, indeed, for the whole of Europe. That is something that only the Government can do. They cannot leave it to British Rail.

British Rail says--and for once I have some sympathy with it--that it is not the strategic planning authority for the country, or even for London and the south-east. It is a transport undertaker which must get a return on capital. It wants to get people into the middle of London because it says that that is the best that it can do. There are other options, but it is neither authorised to consider them nor does it have the resources to finance them. The Government must take responsibility.

Although I criticise British Rail for its blinkered approach and the way that it deliberately shut off the other options, in the end the Government must take responsibility. The decision is so vast and so important that it cannot be left to British Rail. Indeed, the Government cannot leave it to British Rail and the developers because they now have to put in money. That will be humiliating, although they will probably try to dress it up. They might say, "Actually, we are not contravening section 42 of the Act ; it is a subsidy to pay for additional environmental works that we have asked the developers to undertake." Perhaps the Government will be honest for once and say that they have to repeal section 42. If they do, they will run into a great deal of trouble, not only from Opposition Members but from many Conservative Members.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Mr. Oakes) made a good speech in which he expressed the fears of many people in the north. They want to know that, whatever option is preferred, it will not be to their disadvantage. The various proposals surrounding Stratford, especially that from Ove Arup, would not disadvantage the north, whether it be the north- east or the north-west. Indeed it would be positively advantageous. When I went to see the previous Minister for Public Transport--before he was given the black spot by Blind Pugh and told to convince the nation why the poll tax is such a wonderful thing ; I think that he should have stuck to transport--I told him, as I want to tell the new Minister, that there must be a proper assessment of all the options. We want the Government to take the lead in making an objective appraisal and in saying, "This project affects the whole country, so we must take an overview and not leave it entirely to British Rail."

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If that were done, the issues raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Halton could be properly addressed. He expressed concern that our debate could influence British Rail in reaching its decision. British Rail has not been influenced by good sense and reasonable argument up till now, so it is unlikely to be swayed by anything that is said in this Chamber. My hon. Friend can be assured of that. We must hope instead that the debate will influence the Government, because it is they who sit at the centre of the web and who can determine whether the project will be a success or a lamentable failure that will have to be carried over into the next century.

The proposals made by Ove Arup are worthy of close scrutiny. They answer all the points made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Halton and would involve both King's Cross and Stratford, which would be in the interests of us all.

The London borough of Newham has worked closely with Colin Buchanan and Partners in making an assessment of Stratford as a prospective site. Newham and the surrounding borough councils--including Redbridge, within the constituency of the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne), who criticises the Stratford proposal--support the Stratford option. Even then, it is not a London but a national issue. Newham has been in the forefront in trying to persuade British Rail to choose Stratford. A development there, linked with additional necessary investment--particularly in cross- rail--would be advantageous to the whole country and to the whole of Europe. It would also be a cheaper option not requiring demolition of property on a large scale. Two hundred acres of British Rail development land is already available at Stratford.

For all those reasons--because the Government should be involved, because of the international nature of the project, and because Stratford is ready and willing and able to accommodate a terminal--I congratulate the hon. Member for Dulwich on his proposal. Even if today's debate does not in any way influence British Rail, we must hope that the new Minister will take a fresh look and seize the opportunity to make a great name for himself.

12.12 pm

Mr. Mark Wolfson (Sevenoaks) : I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) on achieving today's debate, which is extremely valuable and could benefit the whole country. It is also a pleasure to welcome my hon. Friend the Minister for Public Transport, in his new role. We had close dealings when he was Under-Secretary of State at the Department of Health, and we are likely to do so again in respect of the vitally important issue that is the subject of today's debate, and which also affects my constituency.

I bring to the House the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Mr. Dunn), who wanted to be here today but has urgent other business with British Rail in his constituency this morning. I want to focus on the strategic issues involved. History tells us--and so does experience today--that railway development, like road development, can give the lead to economic development. Other hon. Members made the point that alternatives to British Rail's present proposals could benefit parts of south-east England which need further stimulation of economic development and would

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in no way be detrimental, though others have argued otherwise, to the development of the midlands, north, and Scotland.

I am no advocate of the north Thames alternative or of the Stratford alternative, unless at the same time there can be a sensible cross-London link enabling passengers to alight either at King's Cross or at Stratford. A development at Stratford would affect the eastward move of London. We must remember the strategic point that London is moving east. In 50 years' time there may be a very different perception of what constitutes the centre of London compared with today, bearing in mind developments at Canary wharf and docklands. Because at this stage British Rail is viewing the development entirely in terms of its existing network, and because of British Rail's background and raison d'e tre, it tends to perceive everything in terms of rail transport. I call on the Minister, as I have done frequently in the past, to take a strategic view instead. Historically, railways have led economic development. It is interesting that in France the Government grant for TGV trains was based on making them take the lead in developing those regions of France which needed it most. I refer not only to the north of France but to the Brittany peninsula, where the TGV Atlantique has been constructed with regional development very much in mind.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich spelt out the three criteria against which he measured British Rail's present

proposals--operational benefits, costs, and environmental factors. I will not repeat the concerns that he expressed, and which I share, but I greatly fear that British Rail's proposals--which we do not know in detail, but of which we have a pretty clear picture--bear all the hallmarks of a British bodger's job on a herculean scale simply because strategic issues were not addressed before decisions were taken on the exact route and what it should achieve.

I wish to highlight one anxiety affecting my constituency before addressing wider points. The expected route is likely to run through my constituency, where there could be an international station, which I am led to believe might be located within a five-mile radius of Swanley. Any such plan will run counter to all existing green belt policies and to the Kent structure plan. It is bound to bring major building development to the vicinity in future years, and the prospect of such growth will rightly arouse much controversy. Here we have the prospect of growth being centred on an area where it is neither needed nor planned for. If anything, there is over- employment in that area, which for many years has been designated green belt for controlled development only. If British Rail's development was allowed, it would open a Pandora's box and act like the magnet that large airports have become. Such magnets are needed, but not in that location.

I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to give careful consideration to the argument that whatever type of Bill is brought before the House, be it private or hybrid, to enable the rail link to be constructed any development apart from the line itself should be subject to the usual planning requirements and therefore a matter ultimately to be decided through the public inquiry procedure. We had that assurance on the previous proposals for British

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Rail and the Parkway station further east in Kent, and I look to the present Minister to give us that assurance again.

As regards the Stratford or north Thames alternatives, I have already said that a terminal at Stratford could bring benefits because of the eastwards growth of London and the fact that the centre of London is moving in that direction.

No other scheme has focused on the national issues. Speeches today from hon. Members representing constituencies in the north have concentrated on passenger traffic. The Stratford alternative--Ove Arup's alternative, in particular--will also deal with freight. My hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich said in his introduction that none of us can be satisfied with British Rail's approach to the freight market. It is missing an enormous opportunity here. British industry, and especially the CBI, are extremely worried about that approach, and anyone who is concerned about the environment and the pressure on our roads should also be worried. Surely the main reason for the channel link was to enable British industry and people to flow through to the continental system. British Rail's proposals would tie us, from the beginning, to the same problem that Brunel battled with--the problem of gauges in Britain being different from those in other parts of Europe. I do not mean the gauge of the track, but the loading gauge and the size of truck and carriage that will be able to run on the British system.

As this stage, with all the effort being put into 1992, we should ensure that Britain's infrastructure and railways are compatible with the entire continental system and not merely the European Community. Opportunities are opening up throughout Europe, and eastern European countries now have the chance to link in. Lord Young said, off the cuff, that he foresaw Europeans travelling by train in the next century rather than by plane, but that will not happen unless our links can be as effective as those in Europe.

To deal with the proper concerns voiced so eloquently by hon. Members representing northern constituencies, the Stratford alternative only makes sense if we also have a cross-London rail link so that Stratford is one of a number of possible boarding and alighting points within the capital. As does the freight system, Ove Arup's alternative provides us with the opportunity progressively to upgrade the rail network north and west of London to handle the continental loading gauge. The swap-body system, in which the body of a freight wagon is moved on and off a lorry allows for huge growth. It occurs all over Europe and cuts transport time and costs. It is recommended by the European Commission, which emphasised its view that the system should be extended to Scotland, but that will not happen unless British Rail produces a scheme which can automatically cope with that system everywhere. Ove Arup's scheme is a start, and if we do not do something similar we shall be at a disadvantage when competing in Europe.

In contrast, what have we got? British Rail has ordered new rolling stock on the existing British gauge and has apparently ruled out upgrading lines designated for freight however far into the future one looks. British Rail has tunnel vision. It must look further ahead and must not merely upgrade within the existing British loading gauge, but upgrade to take continental wagons. Otherwise, we shall again be at a considerable disadvantage.

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Some people may argue that these proposals are visionary, but there is a necessity for some vision in such a matter. We have the opportunity for the regeneration of Liverpool as a port. Ships could call there once more and load freight on to a European network at Europe's most westerly point. Freight could run straight through from Liverpool into Europe.

Other hon. Members have compared the situation here with that in France, which is way ahead in developing its passenger network and in planning for freight. The French scheme makes rail travel fit in strategically. One will be able to board fast passenger trains at Charles de Gaulle airport and people who do not want to pass through Paris will not need to do so. We should offer similar opportunities here.

One of the reasons why infrastructure in France, both road and rail, is generally more advanced than in Britain is that compensation arrangements there have been so much better. Our arrangements put a block on development. People feel aggrieved from the beginning when they know that compulsory purchase is to take place against their will and that they will get the lowest possible market value. In France, people are over- compensated by up to 25 per cent. That is surely a good incentive and it can be a saving. So often in Britain the fight against compulsory purchase takes so long that by the time the infrastructure is built, having bought the land, all the costs have escalated hugely. Better compensation would be a sensible way around that.

We argued about compensation in the debates on the Channel Tunnel Act 1987. We did not win the argument, but since then the Government have produced a discussion document on compensation and I encourage hon. Members involved in this issue to keep up the pressure for such a change. There should be improved compensation not just for farmers but also for householders, and for anyone who is bought out as a result of a scheme, whichever scheme is chosen.

Another factor in compulsory purchase orders for land is that if private sector partners are now to be brought in--and I welcome that--to infrastructure projects such as the channel tunnel link, they will want to make a profit out of the land that they purchase. The land is not purely pro bono publico but is required to be profitable for private sector organisations who enter the scheme. It is therefore equitable that the original purchase should not be at a knock-down price. The person who is forced to sell should get some benefit as the scene is changing. That adds force to my argument for the need for better compensation.

I support the motion, which asks the House to urge British Rail properly to evaluate the sensible north Thames alternatives. If British Rail does not do so, our debates on the high-speed rail link will continue to be dogged by complaints from many hon. Members, and from large numbers of people all over Britain, who are not satisfied that this huge national and international project has been approached from the beginning with the proper strategic issues in mind. 12.37 pm

Ms. Harriet Harman (Peckham) : I congratulate the hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) on his excellent speech. I also congratulate the Minister for Public Transport on his appointment to his new post. I hope that he will pay careful heed to everything that the hon.

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Member for Dulwich has said. The hon. Member for Dulwich dealt very well with the point that I intend to make-- that it is not a question of London and the south-east versus Wales, the north and Scotland, but a question of whether we are to have a national strategy in the national interest or whether there is to be anarchy, chaos and shambles.

We have heard about business men and women in Stuttgart, Milan and Lille, and where they will be. I am glad that they are not in the Strangers Gallery listening to the debate. It is a national scandal that we should be deciding national strategic issues on this basis. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) said that he hoped that the Minister would pay heed to the facts, but none of us is very clear about the facts. The intention seems to have been to obscure the facts. Banks, property developers, British Rail and Members of Parliament with constituency interests have been fighting like rats in a sack while the national interest wanders lonely and afraid with no one to look after it. The Minister must take the national interest under his wing and look after it-- otherwise, not only London and the south will suffer but also the north, Wales and Scotland.

Those who live in south-east London have no interest in seeing the failure of the manufacturing base of this country, nor are we interested in the ruination of the beautiful environment of Kent, the garden of south-east London. We want a sensible strategy to be developed. The Government must therefore take a grip on the problem. Discussion of the terminal issue has been no more than a parliamentary pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey exercise. We have to do better than that.

One of the most disturbing aspects of the shambles over the channel tunnel rail link is the Government's failure to take any responsibility for this major strategic transport decision. I well remember that in another debate the Minister's predecessor, the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Portillo), sat there with a studied, neutral expression on his face. He listened to one side ; he listened to the other ; then he got up and said, "Of course, it's nothing to do with me." That is not good enough.

The Government must take a view on a decision that will have important consequences for the development of the British economy and our place in Europe both now and into the next century. However, instead of recognising the importance of the rail link, the Government act as though it were of no more importance than a minor extension of the Central line to West Ruislip. The Secretary of State for Transport said that the plan for the route was a private matter for British Rail and its partners. That is no way to treat the issue.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Dulwich on tabling his motion. His constituency borders mine. The motion reflects the anger and despair of hon. Members on both sides of the House and in all parts of the country at the way in which the dispute is being handled. It is not yet too late. The debate has provided us with an opportunity to demand that the Government wake up to their responsibilities and look again at where the rail link is to go.

The Secretary of State and the Minister must also recognise that British Rail's plans will cause devastation in south London. There is no strong evidence that they will be of economic benefit to the region or that they will equip us with the means to face the challenge of integrating the British transport system with the European transport

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system. I am glad that hon. Members have not erred on the side of castigating British Rail and saying that it is all BR's fault. It is not without fault, but the villains of the piece are the Government who set us all off on the wrong footing.

Section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act, which prevents any public investment in the scheme, has forced BR to try to find the cheapest route possible under the shortest-term objectives. That is the reason for the mess that we are in. We can get out of it only if the Government's central role in developing the rail link is accepted. British Rail has still to announce its final plan, but it has announced loads of "final" plans. It is difficult to remember the number of "final" plans over the past two years. I wonder whether we shall still be waiting in 1992 for the "final" plan to emerge out of the shambolic Opposed Private Bill Committee procedure.

The last British Rail plan was a route through south-east London, which would have involved a massive junction at Warwick gardens in Southwark and the rest of the link in a tunnel under the Thames to King's Cross. That scheme had to be abandoned on 3 November 1989 because the costs were unacceptable to BR's partner, Eurorail. We have since been promised many times a formal announcement of the route, but we are still waiting. I fear that British Rail may now be forced, because of financial pressures, to rever to part of the route that it proposed in March 1988. That would be totally unacceptable to my constituents because it would mean that substantial parts of the rail link would run overground through Peckham, chopping communities in half.

The Government are spending money on inner-city projects, but they can forget inner-city regeneration if, sliced through the middle of Southwark there is a rail link which will divide the shops from where people live and cause a construction blight over the whole of this fragile inner-city area. All the North Peckham task forces and business men's breakfasts in the world will mean nothing. The area will be blighted and become dreadful if British Rail goes ahead with the March 1988 plan of slicing through the middle of Walworth and constructing what has been described as the Walworth wall.

Mr. Simon Hughes : The hon. Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden), the hon. Lady and I have similar views. We have never argued that there should be any environmentally unacceptable plan for the shire counties or other parts of Britain. Does the hon. Lady agree, however, that running rail services overground in what is already an environmentally harmed and polluted area would be just another form of discrimination for the haves against the have-nots? The Government must not try to divide parts of Britain against other parts. We will not, and the country should not, allow inner-city areas to be environmentally damaged any more than they are already.

Ms. Harman : The hon. Gentleman is correct.

The commercial pressures imposed on British Rail have led it into misrepresenting the devastation that would result from its cheapest option. British Rail implied that there would be a minor bit of returfing in Warwick gardens and that it would all be all right, resulting in only minor disruption. The equipment that British Rail admits will be used to carry out that work includes two bulldozers, two

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or three excavators, two bored pile rigs or two diaphragm wall excavators, one concrete-batching plant, two or three front and back-end loaders, one bentonite slump production plant, one large soil compactor, one reinforcing bar bending shed, four mobile cranes, four dumper trucks and numerous site huts--all on Warwick gardens, one of the few patches of green in an area that is struggling to regenerate itself. Warwick gardens would, in effect, be turned into a giant construction slum for up to 10 years. That would be the effect of trying to do the job on a cheapskate basis.

It is not in the national interest to strangle the manufacturing base of the north-west, north-east and Wales. It is not in the national interest to let our inner-city areas degenerate and turn into slums. The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Wolfson) mentioned compensation. I have taken up many hardship cases. British Rail's criteria have been utterly inadequate. Many people want to sell their homes but cannot either because they are just outside the compulsory purchase zone or because they cannot prove severe hardship. They have been left completely stranded because the "compulsory purchase zone" description is completely inadequate. The blight has spread far wider than the compulsory purchase zone and people have been unable to take up new jobs or to move for family reasons. They have seen the value of their homes collapse. They cannot sell their homes--they are stuck.

The difficulties of my constituents have been made much worse by the continuing uncertainty surrounding the route of the link. No doubt businesses in the north and east feel that uncertainty and cannot look forward to developing for 1992 because they do not know how they will knit in with Europe, but people in my constituency feel that they cannot plan from one day to the next because we do not know what is happening. One of the commonest complaints that I receive is that people do not know where they stand because the route has not yet been decided.

British Rail has purchased 117 homes in the Warwick gardens area, but I am concerned because it is not maintaining them adequately. The homes have been purchased under the compulsory purchase scheme, but British Rail is not ensuring that they are used. Whole streets around the Warwick gardens area in my constituency have been bought up by British Rail only to be left to fall into disrepair. The properties are empty. Given the housing shortage in London, I hope that British Rail will ensure that those properties are filled straight away with, for example, the teachers that we need in our primary schools, or with social workers or nurses. The properties that have been purchased in this awful situation should at least be used to house what are described as key workers. I understand that British Rail has already spent more than £12 million buying those properties. British Rail has made things worse. It has managed to unite opposing interests against it. Because British Rail is frightened of the public view, it has tried to ride roughshod over it. I invited British Rail to come with me to the meeting of the Lettsom estate tenants association. Those tenants will be affected by the rail link--The letter I received from British Rail stated :

"Thank you for your letter of 9 May.

Experience has told us that large public meetings are not effective in dealing with the perfectly genuine worries of people on the route of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link.

In the circumstances, I am sure you will appreciate why we shall not be sending a representative to the meeting at the Lettsom Estate Tenants' Association".

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British Rail has given up coming to meetings because it does not have any answers. Whenever it has attended a meeting, people have been left more angry, more bewildered and more uncertain than when they arrived.

I want to examine the way in which British Rail has handled the private Bill procedure relating to the terminal. With the terminal at King's Cross and the channel tunnel ending at the coast in Kent, my constituency is clearly in the middle. If one takes a map and puts a dot on King's Cross and another dot at the mouth of the channel tunnel, one can see that there is a real question mark over whether the route will come through my constituency.

Of course, my constituents have an interest in the route of the tunnel. That is why I petitioned the Committee that studied the King's Cross Railways Bill and said that, through my representations, my constituents, wanted to be heard and to know the location of the terminal because it will affect them. However, I was told "No, you cannot speak to the Committee about your constituents' concerns. You have no locus standi. This Bill deals only with the terminal. You can talk to us about the route." But we all know what will happen when we get to the route. British Rail will say, "The terminal is already fixed. Thanks for coming to the Opposed Private Bill Committee, but we are sorry, our hands are tied. Look where the terminal is and look where the channel tunnel mouth is--you just happen to be in the middle. Sorry, you are too late. The terminal is there and the numbers are settled." By opposing my locus standi, it is British Rail, not the Court of Referees, that must take responsibility. Of course, although British Rail is one of the key players, it is not here. These discussions always take place without the right information and without the right people being involved. However, I advise British Rail that when the Bill has been considered by this House, it will go to the Lords where there will be an Opposed Private Bill Committee and where I shall petition on behalf of my constituents. I hope that British Rail will see the error of its ways and allow my petitioners a voice in the Opposed Private Bill Committee in the Lords, despite the fact that BR outrageously blocked that voice here in the Commons.

The Government must establish a proper committee of inquiry to look at all the alternative routes to the rail link so that even those who may lose out in the end feel that consideration has been fair and in the national interest rather than a shambolic back-of-an-envelope job. The Minister will recognise from this debate that although people have held different and even opposing views about whether the terminal should be at Stratford or King's Cross, we are all united in our unhappiness about the handling of the matter. We are fed up. There is no alternative to the Government repealing section 42 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1988. We cannot continue with the present mess and uncertainty. The Government must face up to their

responsibilities now and act to prevent the current shambles from worsening. I know from my past dealings with the Minister on health matters that he does not lack the intelligence to deal with the issue. He will quickly understand what is going on. I hope that, as a new Minister, he will have a new opportunity to understand the issues and that he will be a new broom. We should all welcome that. The Government will not sort out the problem by blaming British Rail or by trying to persuade more of their friends in the private sector to come up with the cash. The Government can do so only by meeting the two demands

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that I and many other hon. Members are making today, which are that they set up a proper committee of inquiry to consider the best route and that they allow public investment in the project in the national interest.

I will support the motion for Stratford, but until the Government take those two steps, the present crisis will continue and my constituents and others throughout the country will continue to suffer.

12.46 pm

Mr. Andrew Rowe (Mid-Kent) : I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich (Mr. Bowden) will take as read the polite remarks that I would make if there were more time, but many hon. Members wish to speak.

Commuter traffic on British Rail has dipped to a level which, if it were to persist, would make the additional capacity of a high-speed rail link unnecessary. We must remember in this numbers game that we cannot necessarily assume that the growth in use of Network SouthEast will continue ; working at home, network working and all sorts of other developments may well diminish that use.

This is a particularly useful debate for clearing up some misapprehensions and I hope to do so. It is disappointing that many hon. Members who have spoken are backward looking. They have fallen into the same trap as British Rail in assuming that the world will stay much the same as it is now. Nobody could assume from listening to our debate that we are talking about a development which will not come on stream until virtually the next century. I shall make my remarks in that context.

The high-speed rail link is not indispensable to get passengers or freight from the channel tunnel portal to other destinations in the United Kingdom. We know that British Rail is spending more than £1 billion to bring international passengers from Cheriton to Waterloo in 1993. We are told that it can cope as it is until the year 2000. British Rail's joint venture partners, Trafalgar House, tells us that there are no plans beyond the year 2000. We also know that British Rail is developing plans to take freight round London on underused passenger lines either via Maidstone or Tonbridge -Redhill. With its sights set at a maximum of 6.1 million tonnes, it reckons that it can cope with that for the foreseeable future.

The high-speed rail link is not indispensable to the channel tunnel. On Thursday, Alastair Morton came to the Select Committee on Transport and said that his scheme was not dependent on the rail link. He said that Eurotunnel would make more money from carrying freight on lorries through the tunnel by shuttle, than on through-trains.

British Rail's proposed high-speed rail link is not a freight line. There are still those in the north of the United Kingdom who believe that King's Cross is vital to ensure that their goods reach mainland Europe quicker than they do now. Those who believe that are completely confused, because King's Cross has nothing to do with freight.

What is the British Rail-Trafalgar House proposal, and why should it not be accepted as it stands? My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Thorne), who has had to leave, is asking a great deal of those of us who have dealt with British Rail during the past few yers to believe that it is so expert that it should not be questioned nearly as much as some of us try to question it. He made an impassioned plea for its expertise. Having watched it flounder its way through the negotiations and turn, in the end, with great

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reluctance to its private enterprise partner, not merely to carry out the contract it wanted, but to tell it how to design the line, I am entitled to feel some scepticism about British Rail's specialist expertise.

We do not know what the British Rail-Trafalgar House proposal actually is. We have been assured that a twin-track line following the M20 from an international station in Ashford to an international station somewhere near Swanley will stick pretty closely to the maps already published. After Swanley, it will follow a line that has not yet been disclosed, until it reaches a newly developed interchange at King's Cross. We could make some pretty good guesses about where it would go, but it would be silly to try to second guess British Rail at present.

I found it a bit thick for my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South to contend that it is impossible to evaluate any alternative because it is necessary to know in detail where a line will go in order to evaluate it. None of us has the faintest idea where British Rail's line is to go.

Mr. Spearing : Does the information that the hon. Gentleman has, and which I have not seen, state whether that link from the Swanley area to the King's Cross area will be entirely a new route in tunnel, an enlargement of existing routes or a mixture of both?

Mr. Rowe : I cannot give the hon. Gentleman anything other than some informed guesses to which I have been made privy that suggest that it will be a combination of both, and is likely to go underground for the last five or six miles, perhaps further. We know that Trafalgar House and British Rail cannot build their line without subsidies, despite the fact that Trafalgar House defeated its five competitors for the contract partly on the basis that it would build it without a subsidy. That is the sort of constantly shifting sand with which the previous Minister and my hon. Friend the Minister for Public Transport, whom I am delighted to see here today, have had to grapple. Every time they think they have got something firm, it slips away from them.

I understand that the funding gap is closer to £1 billion than the £400 million suggested in The Times, but, again, we have no knowledge of the figures because such things are confidential. That is despite the fact that the arbiter, the sole proponent of this great scheme, is a nationalised industry. I find it difficult to see why information held by a nationalised industry should not more easily be put into the public domain.

I understand that British Rail would prefer to receive a lump sum for any subsidies it needs. Therefore, any deal based on commuters paying to use the line, either directly or indirectly, through Network SouthEast, would not meet that requirement. One is bound to ask in this year of hard Treasury decisions whether British Rail's proposed high-speed rail link is the most worthy recipient of £1 billion, even if that proved to be all that was required. One cannot rely on British Rail. Let me give just one example out of dozens. King's Cross station has additional parking capacity of 150 places. Mr. Welsby who is now chief executive of British Rail--his handling of the project in its early stages was so exemplary that he was promoted--made me look extremely foolish in front of about 350 angry constituents at a public meeting by telling me that it was stupid of me to imagine that people would want to

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bring their cars to the railway station, as people who wanted to travel by train would travel by train. So it came as something of a surprise when his successor in charge of the transport project came to see me the other day, and when I asked why British Rail wanted Swanley, he said, as if I were a complete moron, "Because international passengers travelling to a railway station come by car." So British Rail cannot be trusted, and the entire process stands as a monument to its incompetence.

The costs of the proposal are dubious, even within the parameters of British Rail and Trafalgar House, but those parameters are drawn far too narrowly. I received from the managing director of Trafalgar House a categorical assurance that British Rail will make no contribution whatsoever to the infrastructure costs of a parkway station at its preferred site near Aylesford on the edge of my constituency, yet the costs of the necessary roads to that green field site will be enormous. If Eurorail were a grocery company, it would be required to contribute, with obvious consequences for its costings. Is not it similarly appropriate to include in those costings the costs of upgrading the passenger lines that British Rail propose should be used for freight, including the sound insulations that the many thousands of people who live along those routes have good reason to expect? I believe that the true costs of the British Rail proposal are substantially in excess of £3 billion.

Finally, Kent county council is increasingly unhappy about the proposal. No sooner had Mr. Welsby been translated to his new post as chief executive than he confirmed that Swanley is now indispensable to the project. Kent county council views that change with great alarm. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich said in his most eloquent speech, it affects the green belt. The proposal is also an enormous threat to the prosperity of Ashford. For many years Kent has tried to make Ashford the development centre for the county. A major interchange at Swanley and a Maidstone parkway station would make it almost inconceivable that Ashford would grow in competition with those two centres. It is significant that the consultants who have been appointed to carry out the work on Ashford international station have so far received no further instructions.

I might say in passing that British Rail's own study for Maidstone parkway station shows that more than half its likely passengers would come from the Sittingbourne, Swale and Gillingham areas. No one who has seen the A229 over Bluebell hill in the morning can seriously believe that the Maidstone parkway site is a sensible place for a parkway station, even if it did not drive a coach and horses through Maidstone borough council's and Kent county council's green belt policy. The county council has understandable anxiety that a careful count of houses has shown that more than 7,000 houses in Kent alone will be affected by the three routes in British Rail's present proposals, so for all those reasons we have to be extremely careful. What about some of the other possibilities? I shall speak of one only, the Bechtel--Manufacturers Hanover Trust proposal, which addresses many of the questions that I have raised. The whole of its proposal is in the public domain, but for the reason that I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford, South it is not in detail. One of the few skilful things that British Rail has done in all the negotiations is successfully to destroy the Government's original intention to get it to work with a

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private contractor. British Rail did that by shutting out design considerations from the private contractors who were invited by British Rail merely to contract to do the work that British Rail had already specified. I understood that the whole idea of bringing in the private sector was to bring its greater imagination and experience to bear on the design. It was only when British Rail got nearer to London than Swanley that it allowed Trafalgar House to take part in the design.

The Bechtel--Manufacturers Hanover Trust proposal will not be a pig in a poke, and it is important for the Minister to remember that. That company has a record of properly pricing its products and if the price is accepted it completes them at that price or carries the overspend. I am worried that we have a budding Concorde on our hands and that once British Rail has the Government behind it on the project we shall find, amazingly, the cost constantly escalating. There may be other desirable elements in the Bechtel plan. For example, it proposes to continue its line to St. Pancras and that would be a great help to the east midlands. There is also a far greater chance of Bechtel finishing the project without Government subsidy.

In all the debates about the channel links, freight has dominated, especially for those who live in the north or west. The northern fear is that if the continental UIC gauge, which is indispensable for a 21st century freight system in this country, is taken to Temple Mills it will cripple the north. I do not think that that is the case. British Rail is developing ingenious small-wheeled bogies that will allow UIC gauge containers to travel on United Kingdom lines. The problem, as British Rail admits, is that the number of such wagons would be very small as a percentage of all European wagons. Are we seriously to believe that European manufactures will hang about waiting for a small-wheeled bogie to turn up when they have a container to put on the railway? Of course not. They will put their containers on the nearest available wagons.

I understand that the French are already building a transfer depot which will allow such containers on large-wheeled bogies to be transferred to lorries in France. I remind the House that Eurotunnel will make more money taking lorries on shuttles than it will make on through trains. As a result the roads of Kent, indeed the roads of the United Kingdom, will be filled with all the lorries that the channel tunnel was supposed to take off our roads. However, if the small wheeled bogies were based at Temple Mills they would form a high percentage of the total United Kingdom wagons and the rest of the United Kingdom could be more easily served by UIC gauge containers.

It is extraordinary for British Rail to take such a pessimistic view of freight. Its estimates of what it can capture are lower than those of SNCF, lower than Eurotunnel's and lower than the estimates of the independent consultants who have considered the matter. At 6.1 million tonnes, the estimate is such a small proportion of the United Kingdom's total freight that the anxieties of the rest of the United Kingdom about being linked to the system are barely worth the trouble. Is British Rail right to be pessimistic? I emphatically believe that it is not. Let us look at two measures. International freight growth has been running at 12 or 13 per cent. on the railways in recent years and that growth will accelerate in 1992. Unitised freight movements in 1989 exceeded the forecast that had originaly been made for 1993.

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Next we must look at pollution. For how long will the heavy goods vehicle continue to enjoy its privileged position? I remind the House that we are looking into the 21st century. In the light of the announcement yesterday of the new anti-pollution agreement into which the Department of the Environment has entered, we can confidently forecast that pressure will mount every year to get the freight off the roads and on to rail. The tragedy is that, under British Rail's proposals, there will be no international rail network of any sensible proportions to take freight. Any proposal that puts forward a purpose-built freight line, as does the Bechtell-Manufacturers Hanover Trust proposal, on UIC gauge deserves much more analysis than it has so far received.

British Rail is pessimistic because, at the very beginning, when, no doubt, Mr. Welsby was in charge, it took the view that freight would be on a small scale, so it entered an agreement with SNCF, with a tariff that it now discovers gives it no profit. Trafalgar House has admitted that it see no profit in freight.

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