House of Commons Hansard Debates for 21 May 1990

Dr. Godman : How do the error and processing rates in England compare with those in Scotland? Are not there still offices in Scotland that are undermanned in terms of the workload presented by too high unemployment and other social and economic circumstances? When will the Greenock office be given more staff to deal with these problems?

Mrs. Shephard : Performance in offices varies throughout the country. The figures that I cited for the group of London offices were the worst. I believe that I am right in saying that no office in Scotland has the problems of that group. The introduction of an operational strategy and directing staff to priority work mean that there will be a continuing improvement in the achievement of targets throughout the country, including Scotland. I remind the hon. Gentleman that that improvement has been achieved in Scotland through the relocated work in Glasgow.

Sir George Young : My hon. Friend will be aware that the three offices to have work relocated to Glasgow first were those at Ealing and that there has been a dramatic and welcome reduction in the time taken to process applications. Is she aware that the interface with the Department of Employment is the one causing delays because the office cannot keep up with the greater pace? Will my hon. Friend liaise with the Department to ensure that the momentum is maintained?

Mrs. Shephard : I assure my hon. Friend that we shall do all that is necessary to alleviate that problem.

CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

Churches

69. Mr. Tony Banks : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby representing the Church Commissioners, how much money was spent in the last year on the maintenance of archaeologically and architecturally significant churches.

Mr. Michael Alison (Second Church Estates Commissioner, representing the Church Commissioners) : Responsibility for the maintenance of the Church of England's 16,400 churches and cathedrals, most of which are listed, rests with the parochial church councils and chapters. It is estimated that in 1989 the Church found in excess of £70 million for maintenance of those buildings,

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mainly through the giving of its congregations, but including about £7 million state aid towards structural repairs of outstanding churches in use.

Mr. Banks : The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the importance of these churches of great architectual significance extends beyond the congregations that use them. What support is given from central Government funds to assist in their maintenance? A number of significant Christian churches in, for example, the middle east are falling into a state of sad disrepair. Can anything be done, either by the Church Commissioners or through discussions with central Government, to provide much-needed funds for those wonderful buildings abroad?

Mr. Alison : I must ask the hon. Gentleman to allow me to take notice of the latter part of his question about churches overseas, but I agree that there are some fine churches with Anglican roots in European countries. I repeat that about £7 million of state aid flows, largely through English Heritage, into the main pool of resources for maintaining these splendid old churches.

Mr. Carrington : My right hon. Friend will be aware that considerable disquiet is expressed from time to time about the effects on the interior fixtures and fittings in churches of changing the use of churches from worship to alternative practices. Will he convey to the ecclesiastical authorities our concern to ensure that not only the fabric outside churches but the artistic heritage inside is preserved?

Mr. Alison : Yes, we pay careful attention to that problem. Not many months ago, the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) asked about the future of important organs in old churches. We have a procedure for ensuring that the artistic heritage is treated with the same respect as the old buildings.

Mr. Cryer : Each year applications are made for consent to demolish listed church buildings. Does the right hon. Gentleman have any idea of the numbers involved, as that would show the shortfall between the money raised locally and through English Heritage grants and that necessary to stop the demolition of churches, which has continued almost unabated for the past 20 to 30 years? We need to take action to stop further demolition.

Mr. Alison : The hon. Gentleman may be interested to know that, of 1,261 churches declared redundant between 1969 and 1989, only 297 have been demolished. So three quarters of them have been preserved and remain standing. In respect of the 297, a rigorous procedure had to be undergone before demolition could be authorised. Moreover, I am happy to say that more churches have been built than have been demolished. Three hundred and ninety-one new churches have been built, so we have made a net gain in the demolition stakes.

Mr. Latham : Is my right hon. Friend aware that members of my own parish church in Gretton in Northamptonshire are pleased to have received a grant of £34,000--I had the sterling support of my hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Mr. Powell)--but that that is only a drop in the ocean compared with the needs of many parish churches throughout Britain? We face a tremendous problem in maintaining our great heritage, and we must all bend our minds to deciding how best to achieve that.

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Mr. Alison : I take my hon. Friend's point, but he will appreciate the significant performance of parishes up and down the country in raising as much as £70 million towards the maintenance of our elderly and historic churches. That shows that there is a vast source of good will and commitment to enable the Church as a voluntary association to do its own main burden-bearing.

South Africa

70. Mr. Gow : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, what is the policy of the Church Commissioners about investment in the Republic of South Africa ; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Alison : The Commissioners' policy is long established and has been well publicised. They do not invest in any South African company or in any other company where more than a small part of its business is in South Africa. When they invest in a company with a small stake in South Africa, they try to ensure that that company follows enlightened social and employment policies, as far as that is possible within the system of apartheid, of which they have repeatedly expressed their abhorrence. In common with the rest of the Church, the Commissioners welcome the important political developments since the end of 1989 and hope that the momentum will be sustained.

Mr. Gow : Is it really the case that the Bishop of Oxford has it in mind to bring legal proceedings involving the Church Commissioners concerning the investment policy of the Church of England? Instead of indulging in absurd litigation of this kind, should not the bishop and the Church be engaged in the business of saving the souls of the people, clothing the naked, feeding the hungry and healing the sick? Can my right hon. Friend assure the House that this mischievous bishop will not be considered for appointment to Canterbury?

Mr Alison : It is not, alas, in my gift--even on this important occasion--to give a definitive answer to my hon. Friend's final question. But I can confirm that the Bishop of Oxford appears to be intent on taking legal action against the Church of England. It could only bring the Church into disrepute if the bishop proceeded with his legal action against the Church Commissioners. The action is bound to be adversarial and will be perceived publicly as hostile. I hope that the Bishop of Oxford and his associates will decide to withdraw it. The Church Commissioners derive no more than one third of 1 per cent. of their annual income from South African sources and effective action to eliminate even this tiny fraction could bring hugely disproportionate detriment to the Commissioners' beneficiaries--of whom my hon. Friend gave an enlightened and extended description.

Mr. Simon Hughes : Although one can understand the motives of the Bishop of Oxford, may I associate myself with the comments of the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) and the right hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Alison), answering on behalf of the Church Commissioners? The Bishop of Oxford's action seems to be a distraction from more important priorities. Will the right hon. Member for Selby urge the Church Commissioners to sustain their present policy of not investing in South Africa unless they are advised by the

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Christian churches in South Africa to change that policy? Will they above all not be over-hasty in a decision to change their policy under pressure from the Government or anyone else, but rather lead and advise the Government on what their policy should be in the interests of the souls as well as the bodies of people in South Africa?

Mr. Alison : I take note of the hon. Gentleman's comments. However, I repeat that the Church Commissioners do not invest directly in South Africa. The complexity of disentangling even that tiny residual investment, which is associated with some of the largest household names in British industry, would be considerably detrimental for the clergy and pensioners whom we have to support. We could not await an imprimatur of approval from the churches in South Africa to consider changes in that large overall investment.

Christ Church, Bootle

71. Mr. Frank Field : To ask the right hon. Member for Selby, representing the Church Commissioners, if he will make a statement on the future of Christ church, Waterloo, Bootle.

Mr. Alison : A proposal to use Christ church, Waterloo as a nursing home is at present under consideration.

Mr. Field : Does the Commissioner accept that we believe that he must be apprehensive about giving a reply like that when the Church spends so much of its time saying that it looks after the inner city? One of the finest buildings in Bootle has been left empty for nearly 10 years. The diocese and the Commissioners are sitting on any application for the matter to be referred to the redundant churches fund. Will he allow that to happen this year?

Mr. Alison : I agree with the hon. Gentleman that 10 years of vacant standing in Bootle is an unacceptably long period. The hon. Gentleman will know that there have been several attempts to try to persuade alternative users to come forward and in many cases promising schemes foundered at the last moment. However, there is at least now a positive scheme for a useful future for the church and under the impetus of the hon. Gentleman's question I will do everything to accelerate a definitive decision and a constructive future use for the church.

HOUSE OF COMMONS

Organisation

72. Mr. Skinner : To ask the Lord President of the Council what recent representations he has received from hon. Members about the organisation of the House ; and if he will make a statement.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : I receive representations on many aspects of this matter from hon. Members in all parts of the House. Hon. Members will know that I share a number of their concerns. Together with others, I am giving close consideration to ways of securing improvements and I hope to be in a position to make an announcement shortly.

Mr. Skinner : Is the Leader of the House aware that a real improvement that could be made in this place would

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be to start at a different time? Does he agree that the 2.30 pm kick-off is deliberately designed to allow hon. Members--mainly Tory Members--to make money by moonlighting outside this place? Is not it scandalous and bordering on the obscene when ex-Cabinet Ministers can pick up £250,000 for two days a week at Barclays bank and elsewhere and that others have four, five or six jobs while the workers are being told to go steady on wage rises and pensioners are being pushed through the hoop day in and day out? Why does not the Leader of the House introduce full-time Members of Parliament and get rid of the moonlighting?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I am comforted by the fact that most of the country judges the fatuity of the points made by the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) by the intemperance of his arguments. Even if they had any validity, they would be destroyed by the way in which he presents them. The hon. Gentleman may recall that there was an experiment such as he suggested, with the House sitting during the morning--

Mr. Skinner : I was not here then.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : It was started even before the hon. Gentleman was here. He would have revelled in it. It was introduced under a substantial Labour majority in the House, but the experiment foundered after quite a short time.

Sir John Stokes : Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the present system has served us well for a very long time and, furthermore, that those who were opposed to television--as I was--now find that many people look in to see what we are doing in the afternoon? In the morning they would be too busy to do that. Above all, we want hon. Members in this place who have time for other interests. This would be a dreadful place if we were all full-time employees. We must have outside experience which is most valuable.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend for the calm way in which he presented the arguments that prevailed in the House when the matter was last considered about 20 years ago.

Dr. Cunningham : It is unsatisfactory for the Leader of the House to suggest that, because there was an experiment 20 years ago, we could not benefit from a review of the way in which we conduct our business now. This House seems to sit for more hours and more days than almost any other western legislature, and we are not conspicuously better at producing effective legislation. There is surely a case for us to examine again why we must sit for such long hours. Will the Leader of the House at least consider this matter under the auspicies of the Commission or in some other way and report back to the House?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The hon. Gentleman's point is entirely different from that of the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). It is founded upon exactly the opposite premise. The hon. Member for Bolsover argues that the House is hardly manned at all, that we all do other things all the time and that, because of moonlighting, we are scarcely here. The hon. Member for Copeland (Dr. Cunningham) suggests, with much more reason, that the House sits longer hours than are reasonable compared with other legislatures. A suggestion of that kind, related

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also to the efficiency of our work, and put in the hon. Gentleman's moderate fashion, may deserve consideration. It is quite different from the point advanced by the hon. Member for Bolsover.

Mr. Nicholas Bennett : In view of the distinguished work that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has done in opposing the Labour party's new policy review and the national executive, will my right hon. and learned Friend consider giving the hon. Gentleman special facilities and more accommodation in his new role of leader of the opposition to the Leader of the Opposition?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I shall consider the suggestion, but I fancy that it may be of more use to the nation, if not to the Labour party, for the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) to be exposed in public as much as possible.

Records (Storage)

73. Mr. Dalyell : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he will provide secure accommodation for the storage of records in the keeping of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Members' Interests and the Select Committee on Defence.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : I have received no representations from either my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) or my hon. Friend the Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates) that they are experiencing any particular difficulty in this matter, but I note the hon. Gentleman's solicitous concern.

Mr. Tam Dalyell : Would more secure accommodation speed up the process whereby Parliament can ask questions about this relationship between the Ministry of Defence and SGL? Can we chase the inquiries that Mr. Nicholas Comfort and others tell us the Conservative Chief Whip is making into the business links of the hon. Member for Hampshire, East (Mr. Mates) and clarify the Ministry of Defence's extremely carefully and ambiguously worded letter to me on possible American complaints about the hon. Member for Hampshire, East? Does the Leader of the House approve of the Chairman of a Select Committee having such public relations links in matters that his Select Committee is supposed to scrutinise?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : Characteristically, the hon. Gentleman's points arise in no respect out of his original question. Equally characteristically, he knows that they are the subject of an investigation by the Select Committee on Members' Interests and cannot sensibly be dealt with by this sort of question and answer. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to raise any points of substance, he can and should refer them to that Select Committee.

Mr. Dickens : Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the original question by the hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) was on the security of Select Committee records and reports and so on? Is not it a fact that many hon. Members are extremely careless with their papers? When they leave Select Committes they often throw away their papers very carelessly. Reporters in this place are past masters at going through wastepaper bins and paper sacks, and rightly so if hon. Members are careless. Should not we be more careful with our paperwork? Sometimes hon. Members get hysterical at the

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paperwork that is put before them. But when Committees sit in public, at the end of the day, a report is written and all the stuff that they are keeping secure is in the published report. Does my right hon. and learned Friend wonder why there is all this fuss?

Sir Geoffrey Howe : On the original question, all classified documents are registered and kept in secure facilities in secure areas. Members of Select Committees have access to them only under supervision in those circumstances. As I understand it, the Select Committee on Members' Interests would not have access to documents of that kind. My hon. Friend makes a fair point that was recently underlined by the Privileges Committee. Hon. Members should take greater care of important documents than some of them sometimes appear to do.

Mr. Cryer : Is not it true that the fact that the Chair of the Select Committee on Defence has outside interests related to defence--

Mr. Speaker : Order. I draw the hon. Gentleman's attention to the question on the Order Paper, which is about the storage of records.

Mr. Cryer : Is not it true that those links have caused consternation and that the Select Committee investigation, which will take up a great deal of time, may come across confidential documents that should be kept in secure places? Would not the whole matter be simplified if hon. Members who are Chairs of Select Committees did not have outside interests? Whatever the personal position, that would assure the public outside that there is no possible conflict of interest between the two.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : The two questions are quite separate. The Select Committee on Members' Interests is investigating the broader question. Documents in the custody of the Select Committee on Defence are treated as top secret, registered and kept in secure facilities in secure areas.

Statues

74. Mr. Harry Greenway : To ask the Lord President of the Council if he has any plans to arrange for additional suitable statues (a) of parliamentarians and (b) of animals near the precints of Westminster ; and if will make a statement.

Sir Geoffrey Howe : My remit as Leader of the House does not extend beyond the parliamentary precincts. I therefore have no plans for statues of either parliamentarians or animals as my hon. Friend suggests. There will, however, be some interesting opportunities to place works of art in various forms in the new parliamentary building when it is occupied next year.

Mr. Greenway : Why are not statues of parliamentarians, excluding animals, erected until after they are dead? Will my right hon. and learned Friend encourage any suitable Committee to reconsider that decision? Although we do not want any mad cows in Parliament, will my right hon. and learned Friend promise to join me in leading a campaign to establish in or near Parliament a statue, with a fine steed, of the leader of any Government who succeed in preserving minimum standards for the export of horses and ponies after 1992?

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Sir Geoffrey Howe : As always, I am compelled to admire my hon. Friend's ingenuity. However, as the rule that would prevent a statue of him from being erected until 10 years after his death has been in force since 1925, it has a respectable ancestry.

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