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I sought to go there on the task force, because there have always been parliamentarians actively involved where troops were in action. My father was in the 1914-18 war and he said that he could not understand a sudden disturbance in the trenches--it was a visit of parliamentarians in 1918.The Whips prevented me from going on the task force because of the open- ended commitment that would be involved by my going there. None the less I had the privilege to visit the islands, leading the first parliamentary delegation after the confrontation.
The major lesson to be learned from the Falklands conflict is that it gave credibility to the whole of our western defence policy if the tough men of the Politburo were questioning whether "these so-and-so democracies" would ever do anything for democracy--would they just pass resolutions in the United Nations? We went to that massive expenditure of treasure and blood to defend the right of 1,800 people, mainly of British decent, to live in freedom. That demonstrated the western world's resolve, and also the sheer professionalism of our armed forces.
Let us remember our armed forces in the remoter parts of the world. I have also had the privilege of going to Belize. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Under -Secretary of State for Defence Procurement will mention some of those areas which are outside NATO in his winding-up speech. We have a battalion and some Harriers in Belize. They maintain stability in the area and it is universally accepted that their presence helps to maintain peace there. Having visited the country, I realise that it also gives additional expertise to the armed forces, which have the opportunity to train in the different circumstances there.
The main burden of our armed forces is to maintain peace in Northern Ireland and our commitment to the British Army of the Rhine. I have always been sceptical whether we need a commitment of 55,000 troops to the British Army of the Rhine, and I remain sceptical. As long as there is a substantial commitment to the central European front, that is what is needed. We should not think that there would be immediate savings if we brought some of those market forces home. There would in fact be an immediate increase in the amount of money required because of the necessary refurbishment of barracks here and of re-equipment and the reinstallation of troops on the home front. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will mention the numbers of troops in the British Army of the Rhine.
One of the key issues for our defence forces and our defence posture is the maintenance of our links with the United States of America. I hope that a word may be said about the reciprocal arrangements with the American armed forces, because the link is very important. In any debate on defence we ought to pay tribute to the United States' commitment. It is remarkable that our allies in the United States maintain such a substantial number of troops in Europe. That should be acknowledged. The decoupling of the USA from the NATO alliance would be devastating to it.
I am constrained by the time limit imposed upon us in this debate and shall end as I began, by paying tribute to our armed forces. We are privileged that we have the opportunity to debate their affairs and to pay tribute to their professionalism and courage, and to the marvellous
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support that they get from their families. Service in Northern Ireland and elsewhere places a great strain on their families. I like the way in which the armed forces always talk about "married families"--presumably as opposed to the others, the unmarried ones. That is a historic remnant. We are lucky in the professionalism of our armed forces and in the support that troops get from their families, not only in Colchester but throughout the United Kingdom. It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak in this important debate.7.37 pm
Mr. Ken Maginnis (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) : I recognise that many other hon. Members wish to speak, so I am obliged to confine my remarks to that aspect of Army operations that I know best and with which I have been so closely associated, directly and indirectly, for the past 20 years : the internal security of this kingdom in the face of terrorism, especially the Provisional IRA.
Sadly, it has become almost routine for Ministers to have to address the House about casualties inflicted on the Army as it performs its onerous responsibilities, placing itself between the terrorists and the law-abiding civilian community in Northern Ireland, Britain and Europe. It is a role that our soldiers have carried out in the most difficult circumstances with a self-restraint which sets them apart from probably any other Army in the world. On behalf of my party, I acknowledge with gratitude the sacrifice that our serving men and women continue to make.
Early in the report by the Select Committee on Defence, "The Physical Security of Military Installations in the United Kingdom", the point is made that there is ever a choice to be made between security and value for money. I am realistic enough to appreciate that. However, I wonder how one measures value for money in terms of lives of our troops or ultimately our civilian population. I must pose a question--is it Government policy to tackle terrorism in a proactive or a reactive manner? My experience has been that the latter is the case and that the Government, not in a premeditated manner, but de facto, pursue an "acceptable level of violence" policy for purely fiscal reasons. That caution is paid for in innocent lives and provides the terrorist with the time and opportunity to alter his tactics. Thus the element of surprise is a constant weapon in the armoury of the terrorist. Surely, with the easing of tension between east and west in Europe, we should be seeing more of our military resources channelled towards resolving the grave internal security problem with which we have wrestled for so long.
Has the Minister looked carefully at the constraints placed on the operational needs of our troops in Northern Ireland as a result of the dearth of adequate helicopter hours? Will he concede that more of the considerable resources presently based in Germany could be better deployed to give operational flexibility in Northern Ireland? If he considers the recent deaths of four members of an Ulster Defence Regiment patrol as they travelled in a Land-Rover, he will fully understand that point.
Operational commanders are often frustrated in their efforts to pre-empt and pursue terrorists because of logistical difficulties. Helicopters are extremely expensive, but they are no more expensive flying in Northern Ireland than in Germany. I do not want to labour the point further, except to say that I have yet to meet a battalion
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commander who does not feel that he is operationally inhibited and that his men are forced to endure too many avoidable risks because of the lack of that resource.On the UDR, how pleased I was to read the Stevens report on the leaks inquiry and to find myself wholly vindicated in my opinion that no evidence would be found of an organised or widespread conspiracy to furnish loyalist paramilitaries with confidential information. I have noted carefully the Minister's response to my earlier intervention and I suspect from what he said that he, like many others, including myself, believes that the Stevens operation in which 28 innocent UDR men were arrested in a massive early Sunday morning operation was a callous and ill-judged political stunt. I am sure that neither of us would wish to see such a dangerous blunder repeated.
As I have previously asserted, I have no personal experience of bad apples in the regiment, although some people would like to suggest otherwise for political reasons. Those people, either foolishly or maliciously, play into the hands of the Provisional IRA and help to prolong the suffering of our community. There are no bad apples, but I have known far too many bruised apples--those who, after facing the unrelenting threat of imminent murder over many years, become physically, mentally and emotionally drained. I welcome the provision for each permanent cadre soldier of a warrant for himself, his wife and young children so that they can go to Great Britain, the Isle of Man or the Channel islands for an annual holiday. I hope that that is the beginning of a new awareness of the need to care for those who constantly live under such stressful conditions.
I ask the Minister to give serious thought to extending that concession to the part-time UDR soldier, who probably lives an even more precarious existence, especially in his civilian employment. To start with, perhaps, the warrant could be given to those who have earned their annual bounty by carrying out the required operational duties, training and camp commitment. I hope that the Minister will look sympathetically at the real need here.
I draw the Minister's attention to the lack in Northern Ireland of any "exercise executive stretch" scheme for employers of members of the Territorial Army. Indeed, the scheme could also be applied to the employers of members of the UDR. I understand the security difficulties, but I suggest that a similar scheme would be useful. It would surprise many people if they knew how many serving soldiers in Northern Ireland, particularly part-time members of the UDR, have to sacrifice their annual summer holiday to attend camp. Although some have to do that for security reasons, so that they do not draw undue attention to their membership of the regiment, others find that after 20 years, bosses are not altogether amenable or co-operative. The sacrifice of a holiday week puts pressure on family time and can create domestic problems. I hope that that aspect of soldier welfare can be examined and that a subtle programme for re- educating employers can be undertaken. We should not expect even the stoutest and bravest soldiers to endure, as many have, 20 years of mental and often physical brutality from the terrorist and yet to remain unscathed.
As we have seen over the past 20 years, terrorism does not respond to reasoning or to concessions, no matter how generous or well intentioned. It will recede only if it faces a community that remains resolute to withstand what it knows to be evil. In this democratic society, we as a
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community depend, in the last resort, on our Army acting in support of the civil power. It is therefore imperative, despite overall financial constraints, that we take adequate steps to ensure that the Army is not deployed in the Northern Ireland theatre in a purely reactive role. The adequate resourcing, welfare and morale of our forces, especially in Northern Ireland, must be seen to be primary and constant concerns of the House in general and of the Government in particular.7.46 pm
Sir Jim Spicer (Dorset, West) : I want to open with a word of advice for the Opposition Front Bench. The Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers), made a clear reference to what he would do about tanks. He said that he wanted an order placed for them and that he thought that there was also a good role for a mobile strike force. He was talking about increased expenditure and I advise him to be careful when he goes to his party conference this year. I suspect that the authentic voice of the Labour party will be talking far more about the peace dividend this year than he believes. Let him beware. We shall all watch with interest to see how the conference goes.
It is almost a year since we had our previous debate on the Army. As many hon. Members have said this evening, if one reads that debate it is incredible to see how far we are removed from our thinking last year. However, there is one inescapable fact. People talk about the Warsaw pact and the NATO Alliance as if they were both still in being. The fact is that the Warsaw pact is dead in military terms, it is dead in political terms and it has no relevance. With the greatest respect to Mr. Gorbachev, it is nonsense for him still to try to create the illusion of a balance between the two forces and for him to call, therefore, for a joint reduction. None of us should pay any attention to that.
It is logical that we should look at a reshaping of the structure and composition of our armed forces against the changes that have taken place in Europe. There is a diminished threat of a land battle in Europe and that must mean a total rethink of the composition of our armed forces in Germany and of NATO armed forces as well. I am not seeking to undermine the morale of our armed forces in saying that ; it is a fact.
Whether one is serving with a tank regiment in Germany or with a parachute battalion in the United Kingdom, one knows that the chessmen on the board have moved. Therefore, we should react to that. The case for restructuring has been made. Also, a clear case has been made for an expansion of our air mobility strike force. I was delighted to hear my hon. Friend the Minister say that we need a force that can hit hard and fast at longer ranges. That leads me to the inescapable conclusion that he must be talking about some form of airborne formation and, I hope, an enlarged one.
Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare) : You would, wouldn't you?
Sir Jim Spicer : Indeed I would.
In that context, I am quite certain that Ministers and their advisers in the Ministry of Defence will have read with interest an article in The Times of 14 May by General Sir Geoffrey Howlett, the newly retired commander-in-chief of allied forces, north. He made the case for that new force to be built up not as an airborne brigade but as an
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airborne division. His wealth of experience and his role as a NATO commander must lead us to take note of what he said. He called for 5 Airborne Brigade, 24 Air Mobile Brigade and the Commando Brigade to be brought together under one umbrella to form an air mobile division. Of course that will be costly--everyone accepts that--but, equally, there must be some offset in the changes that will inevitably take place on the land front in Europe.There is not much point in thinking about such an organisation unless we also think of the back-up that will have to come from the Territorial Army. For the past 25 years we have relied on calling upon young men to join the TA because of the reality of a Soviet threat in Europe. To say the least, that threat has diminished over the past few months, and I hope that it will diminish even further. What will now be the incentive for ordinary young men willingly to join the TA? What will we say to them? Will we say, "You have a role--we have a need of you"? I would seek to link the new air mobile division, which I hope will be formed, to an enhanced role for the TA.
There is nothing new in defence terms. I was G3 of 16 Airborne Division when it was disbanded and it became 16 Para Brigade. I would love to see that division reformed, because in every major city in the United Kingdom there would be a parachute battalion that could easily be linked to its regular opposite number as a regular air mobile battalion. I have not expanded on this as much as I should like, but we would certainly get the recruits for such a division. We must offer young men adventure and the opportunity to travel. They would get that as TA soldiers within an airborne formation to a much greater extent than they would anywhere else.
There are people who say that we can exercise our options in the immediate future. I do not think that we can. We must assess the threat, as has been said on both sides. Who can say what the threat will be in one year, let alone in 20 years? Beyond that, until December, when the first elections in unified Germany are held, we must keep every option open. I say that because there is just an outside chance that the Social Democrats might win the election in Germany. If they did so, they would immediately form a coalition with the Greens and, as has been stated, there would be the possibility of a neutralised German state outside the NATO alliance. The thought of that fills me with fear.
Germany's membership of NATO is of supreme importance to the peace of the continent. I pay tribute to Chancellor Kohl for all that he has done in the past and I hope for his resounding success and that of his allies in the elections in a united Germany. For the sake of every person not only in this country but in the rest of the world, I hope and pray Chancellor Kohl will win the election and that we shall not have to live with the Greens and Social Democrats in government. 7.55 pm
Mr. Andrew F. Bennett (Denton and Reddish) : Unlike the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Sir J. Spicer) I should have thought that a neutral Germany was something that we could look forward to with great pleasure rather than
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fear. The history of Europe shows that the level of arms in Germany, rather than the prospect of it being neutral, has frightened people for most of this century.The question that I ask has been posed in every debate on the armed services and on the defence estimates. Have the Government a defence review or not? The official position is that the Government are not carrying out a defence review ; they are looking for options for change. Who is in charge of options for change? Is it the Secretary of State or the Minister of State? The worst aspect is that the debate seems to be conducted by leaks and counter-leaks rather than discussion of the future of our defence forces.
I understand the arguments that were deployed by the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) and one or two other hon. Members, about the effect that a full review would have on morale. The morale of our armed forces will be damaged far more if personnel learn about what is happening through leaks. They listen to rumours and, on the whole, they are kept in the dark. I make a strong plea that we want the most open public debate about what our armed forces are supposed to do in the future, what options they have, and how we can most effectively respond. We must get away from the idea that most of our defence policy can be conducted and discussed in secret rather than in proper public debate.
It is typical of the Government's approach that they believe in deceit and duplicity. They publicly welcome the removal of cruise missiles from Greenham Common but, at the same time, encourage the Americans to bring back those same missiles as sea-launched weapons. I wish to raise three specific matters, the first of which relates to troops. Several hon. Members have said that we shall find it increasingly difficult to recruit 18-year-olds into the armed forces simply because there are far fewer 18- year-olds and competition for them will be increasingly strong. We shall need far fewer 18-year-olds if we can get troop reductions in West Germany. Obviously, by 1997, we shall also have fewer troops in the far east and Hong Kong. However, there will still be major recruitment problems, so we must look at the balance.
At the moment, our troops spend time in West Germany, Northern Ireland and elsewhere. As we reduce our commitment for troops outside the United Kingdom we must look at the proportion of time that they will serve in Northern Ireland and, in particular, take into account the effect on their families, wives and parents and the possible pressure on them not to complete a long stint abroad. As part of the review we must look at the role of the Army in Northern Ireland and, possibly, the training of Army personnel if they are to spend most of their time in a role in Northern Ireland rather than in a combat role.
My second point relates to an issue that has already been referred to--the future of the tank. Hon. Members have questioned whether there is now any prospect of tanks rolling across the plains of Europe from the east and have wondered what our response should now be. There is also the question whether we can do the same things much more effectively using helicopters rather than tanks. We must also consider the number of orders that might be placed for a new generation of tanks.
However, my main point relates specifically to the training of the people who will use the tanks. In recent years there has clearly been growing resentment in West Germany about the training there of our people in our tanks. I believe that the continuation of such training will
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now be totally unacceptable to the West Germans. Indeed, I am amazed that people have put up with the nuisance and the difficulties caused by that training. It is almost certain that we shall have to look elsewhere for those training facilities.Have the Government considered whether the level of tank training that now takes place in West Germany would be acceptable in the United Kingdom? We must bear in mind the amount of land that will be required for any such future tank training.
That brings me to a question that I have raised many times in the House-- the amount of land that is owned by the military in the United Kingdom, and the use to which it is put. I believe that the military still has 250,000 hectares, much of which was grabbed during the first and second world wars, when no one really questioned whether it was essential. Since then, evidence has continued to suggest that the military has far more land than is absolutely necessary.
There was a lot of pressure in 1968 and 1969 to set up an inquiry into defence land. There was also the Nugent committee review between 1971 and 1973. Considering that that committee comprised many people from the Ministry of Defence and was perhaps biased towards their point of view, it came up with some fairly strong recommendations for the release of a great deal of the defence land. I accept that since then some of the land has been released, but a lot more land could be. Much of the land that has been released has been on the urban fringes rather than in areas of outstanding natural beauty. The Ministry of Defence now seems to be considering ways in which it can get a bit of extra land. It put forward proposals for an extra range at Luddesdown in Kent and blew its proposals for bagging a large area of extra land at Knoydart in Scotland. On both occasions the Government seemed to back off--first because of a public inquiry, and secondly because of public pressure. Some of the current leaks suggest that if troops return from Germany, the Government will need to look for extra land. Worryingly, the Minister of State for the Armed Forces made it clear that the Ministry of Defence is looking for extra land. However, I would argue strongly that it should be looking to release land, especially in Pembroke and in the Pennines. I realise that there are major problems with some of those areas of land, because they contain unexploded ammunition and bombs. However, I plead with the Government to work hard at speeding the process of removing and disposing of that ammunition and those bombs from such areas, and then returning the land to public access.
All the evidence relating to the options that the Government are considering suggests that defence expenditure on equipment will be reduced over the next three or four years. If that is the case, it has serious implications for the defence contractors in this country. We should be considering an arms conversion agency. In the changing circumstances, we cannot justify this country continuing to spend so much on arms and we cannot expect other countries to continue to spend as much with our arms manufacturers.
I do not want to see people put out of jobs. I do not want people to have to face the choice of continuing to produce further useless weapons or becoming unemployed, because I know the choice that most people would make. I want to ensure that those people can make useful
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things and that we do get a peace dividend not simply for the Government, but for those who have worked in armaments who should be enabled to work in other areas.Like my hon. Friend the Member for Western Isles (Mr. Macdonald), I firmly believe that the message that the Government--and my own Front Bench--must now accept is that over the next few years the British people will be looking for a peace dividend. They do not accept that, if the United States can start cutting $17 billion from its defence expenditure and there can be a 20 per cent. cut in arms in West Germany and substantial peace dividends in East Germany and the Soviet Union, there cannot be a peace dividend in the United Kingdom--
Mr. Rogers : I must advise my hon. Friend that I said that there would be a peace dividend, but not an immediate one. The changes that need to take place to adapt to the new political--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : Order. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) is already out of time.
Mr. Bennett : Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Before my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Mr. Rogers) rose to intervene, I noted that I had another minute to go, in which I would have emphasised that, yes, we want a peace dividend and it must be planned. We must ensure that we get a peace dividend over the next few years and that we do not pass up that opportunity.
8.5 pm
Mr. Jerry Wiggin (Weston-super-Mare) : The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) is completely wrong about military land. I was partly responsible for the approach on the Knoydart peninsula, when the new Secretary of State's first decision was that we should not proceed. The estate was subsequently broken up and access is restricted. The Ministry of Defence would have served the hon. Gentleman's interests far better than he perhaps appreciates. However, I agree with the hon. Gentleman's point about the debate being about leaks. There are two sorts of secrets in the Ministry of Defence--the military secrets, which are kept impeccably, and the other secrets, which seem to get out according to whose interests might be served by ensuring that they get into whatever newspaper might suit. I assume that the rumour that the Treasury is looking for a cut of £1 billion as a peace dividend came from the Treasury, so I do not accuse the Ministry of Defence of that. The rumour smacked of Treasury tricks of the worst order. I hope that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury or his officials will read the Hansard report of this debate with care because there is a surprising
unanimity--certainly among Conservative Members--about how we should treat the changing events in relation to finance.
I have attended these service debates for many years now and I am sure that my colleagues who are also regular attenders will agree that there has been a complete change of tone in this debate. It has been a much more thoughtful occasion, in which there has been much closer agreement between hon. Members of all parties. That is commendable and in the national interest.
The second leak that we seem to be debating is that my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence Procurement has made some suggestions that are now circulating within the Ministry of Defence, and that in some way that
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represents a split and an outrageous difference of opinion within the Ministry. One of the saddest things is that it is extremely difficult for Ministers to put out their original thoughts if those thoughts are subsequently leaked. There must be debate within Departments. There must be thought and there must be an appreciation of change.If my hon. Friend's paper has been properly reported, I must confess to disagreeing with quite a bit of it and I should be happy to debate it, but I hope that all Ministers are putting forward their own ideas--not only in the Ministry of Defence. This is a moment of change, and change must be debated both within and without Government, and in the House. It is extremely important that the House should give its opinions.
Something that worries me is that, from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, we have unstable Governments in the very countries that have caused us most of the wars in Europe for the past 2,000 years. It would be lunacy to imagine that, simply because the Warsaw pact has collapsed--as my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Sir J. Spicer) has pointed out--we should now drop our guard. The threat may well come in some different and unknown way. The history of warfare shows that that is often the case.
For ourselves, pulling out of Germany will be a long and expensive business, as will be the case for the Russians when they pull out of the Warsaw pact. Without a substantial reduction in numbers, we do not have the accommodation to bring the British Army of the Rhine back to the United Kingdom at present. We have spent hundreds of millions of pounds on building the Germans some fine barracks, hospitals and workshops, but that is history and we must live with it.
I was more sorry to hear that some exercises had been cancelled as a result of the changes. That is neither good for morale nor a sensible economy. It is not fair on the troops. I do not know the details, but I ask Ministers to be careful before changing the carefully organised routine of BAOR. I note that the Secretary of State said on 9 March at the Royal United Services Institute : "there could be a need for flexible and more mobile forces, properly equipped, well trained and well motivated".
Many of my hon. Friends and some Opposition Members have said that that is the future.
It will come as no surprise to Ministers to learn that I believe that helicopters are an extremely important part of any Army, whether we remain as we are or change our position. The Defence Select Committee report on the EH101 said :
"MOD's consideration of the requirement for support helicopters, and the way in which such a requirement should be met, stretches back to the mid 1970's and the matter needs urgent resolution. Indeed, MOD have in the past contributed to their own difficulties, as a result of their inability to bring themselves to a position where their philosophy for mobility on the battlefield of the 1990's and beyond could be stated, and thus a firm requirement determined." That puts it in a nutshell. The military has never made up its mind. It is ready to blame Westland. My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Sir J. Spicer) and I have many Westland employees in our constituencies. I have no doubt that Westland is often incompetent, but it certainly deals with a difficult customer. If only the Government
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could take the military, shake it hard and say, "What do you really want? Get on and order it," we might make some progress.The 24 Air Mobile Brigade is no more mobile than a bicycle battalion. If we took enough helicopters to give 24 Brigade as many helicopters as its United States, French or German equivalent, there would be no helicopters left in the Air Force or the Army. That is the state of play of our air mobility.
While I entirely welcome the statement made in the Navy debate by the Under -Secretary of State for Defence Procurement that he proposes to go ahead with the EH101 naval version, I hope that the promise of the then Secretary of State for Defence that
"the Government have decided to introduce the Utility EH101 to meet that requirement"--[ Official Report, 9 April 1987 ; Vol. 114, c. 471.]
will be met. That was three years ago. We were all pleased to have that announcement, but nothing further has happened.
I entirely share the view of many of my hon. Friends that the Territorial Army must have a brighter future. It must have a larger proportion of the Army's total budget. Its share is still small. The TA is tackling the problem of officers to some extent. The problem varies from one end of the country to the other, but the fact remains that busy young men who are the sort of leaders needed to keep the TA on the road are the very people who are keeping industry and commerce going. While it is not difficult to recruit in London, in many parts of the country finding the right grade of officers and keeping them is a problem.
Whatever the mythology may be, pay matters. Paying all sections of the TA generously would be no bad thing. My hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Sir G. Johnson Smith) said that the TA could perhaps become part of Regular Army units. That is an interesting idea, which should perhaps be pursued. Until the Regular Army takes the TA more seriously, the TA will have problems. I suggest again that recruiting for the TA should become the responsibility of the Regular Army. That would concentrate the mind of the Army. It would be its money and it would see at first hand why young soldiers do not stay in the TA. I am delighted, as we all are, with the political changes that have taken place recently, but I do not feel any more secure militarily speaking than 12 months ago. This is no time to drop our guard. 8.13 pm
Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West) : One thing on which we can all agree this evening, if on nothing else, is that this debate takes place against an amazing backdrop of momentous events in eastern Europe and, indeed, western Europe. For the first time, the map of Europe is being redrawn peacefully. It is not being done by force of arms ; it is not coming about as a result of a military defeat or a military victory. It is absolutely breathtaking. Events are moving so fast that it is difficult for us to keep up with them.
Among all those who never predicted the changes, there seems to be a welter of experts telling us how they took place and why. Ministers are among the worst offenders in that respect. The Minister's opening speech was an example of it. We heard that it is all effectively the result of the nuclear weapons of the west bringing the Soviets to their senses. That is a one-dimensional, simplistic
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approach. The theory is particularly prevalent among the right wing of the military establishment, both in Britain and in the United States. If I remember rightly, they are the same people who were for ever telling us how far the west was behind the Soviets in terms of nuclear warheads, conventional weapons and technology. The Minister himself said that, although the Soviets were withdrawing from central Europe, we must bear it in mind that they have enormous strength in conventional weapons, far greater than ours, so we must keep our conventional defences.How the hell will the Soviets get to us if we have a conventional war? Will they have to fight their way across Poland, Czechoslovakia and a united Germany before they make contact with us? The completely different scenario must be taken into account by the Government when considering the balance of conventional forces.
The Prime Minister claims some sort of fame for having discovered Mikhail Gorbachev. She is like a political equivalent of Hughie Green on "Opportunity Knocks." She says, "We discovered this man." Mikhail Gorbachev is certainly the political catalyst for all the enormously important events that are unfolding around us. If anyone qualifies for Hegel's definition of a world spirit or as a world historical figure, it must be Mikhail Gorbachev. He opened up visions of a new order that were unimaginable even a year ago when we had the Army debate.
For so dramatically changing the world order, Mikhail Gorbachev is paying a great price. He might even pay the price of his life. That is always a possibility, given the tension within the Soviet state. Certainly, he could pay the lesser price of losing his political office. Whatever happens to him, nothing can alter the fact that he has enabled the single most important event in Europe since the Russian revolution of 1917 to take place. Whatever else happens, his legacy will undoubtedly outlive him.
What has been our response? It has been pathetic. Gorbachev has risked everything. We in the west have offered little or nothing. In the United States at the summit, President Bush denied the Soviets favoured nation status on trade, something that they desperately need. He denied the Soviets that on the same day as he reconfirmed it for China, which was celebrating the first anniversary of the Tiananmen square massacre. What message does that send back to the people in the Soviet Union?
Gorbachev was lectured by the Senate on the position of Lithuania, but the Senate approved the invasion of Panama. A great deal of hypocrisy is flying around as Mr. Gorbachev tries to work wonders. We stand back and say, "If you succeed, that will be great. If you fail, it will be unpleasant but don't expect us to do much to help you." That is no response to the momentous events that we are witnessing. The Prime Minister seems to like Mr. Gorbachev, but she uses him for photo opportunities rather than offering to take radical steps in this country to match what he is doing in his. Mr. Gorbachev risks all and we risk absolutely nothing. There is no imagination or vision in British politics at present. Our response is pathetic. Everyone says that we must not take any chances. There is a man in the Soviet Union taking enormous chances, but we are not prepared to take any. Why do we not catch the infectious spirit of optimism and say, "We might run some risks, but they are not the risks that Gorbachev is running or that the people of the east are running"?
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The Warsaw pact is crumbling and now it is no threat to the west. Many of us never saw it as a threat, but we were laughed at and scorned when we said so. On the Government Front Bench there is only one politician of rank who is going some way to respond to the new situation the Minister of State for Defence Procurement. At least he is trying. I hope that I am not doing his glittering political career any terminal damage by saying so. I listened to his Radio 4 interview, which was good and intriguing. He talked about "very substantial savings" as a result of events in the east.I understand that the paper produced by the Cabinet defence and overseas policy committee makes a number of radical proposals, which deserve a wide audience. They should be considered sympathetically by the hon. Gentleman's colleagues. At least the hon. Gentleman has made a start and has gone some way to match the great events in the east. We must congratulate him on being so courageous among such a timorous group of colleagues in such a timid Cabinet.
I have some modest proposals for redrawing our defence strategy. Everyone understands that we shall have a united Germany. I said that when I was in the United States talking to all the clever think tanks. The Americans said that that would not happen, and the Soviets said that they were not prepared to allow it. I asked what they would do if the people voted with their feet--would they send the tanks in? Unfortunately, many people in this country, in the United States and in the Soviet Union were unable to predict the united Germany. The united Germany should be outside NATO and the Warsaw pact and it should be declared a demilitarised zone. I do not know what Conservative Members might think, but the opinion polls of East and West Germany show that that is the desire of the majority of Germans. Their views should at least be considered.
I noted what the Minister said about the withdrawal of Russian troops from central Europe, but why are we talking about the maintenance of the British Army of the Rhine? There is no short-term requirement for British troops to remain on German soil.
I believe that NATO should be disbanded as a military organisation and that it should become more of a political one based on the Western European Union or the North Atlantic Assembly.
Mr. Banks : Obviously the hon. Gentleman does not have much time for the WEU, but I am a member of it and I am going there tomorrow--perhaps that is why he does not like it. At least the WEU attracts people with some imagination, which is more than can be said for the pedants on Conservative Benches.
We should also consider the withdrawal of nuclear weapons and bases from European soil. The defence of Europe must be a European responsibility, and I want the European defence dimension taken into account. As the European Community moves towards political union, it should take on defence responsibilities with the eventual objective of a European Community stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals--the common European home talked of by Gorbachev and others.
The people of the United Kingdom, of east and west Europe and of north America accept that there is a peace dividend. There are many social pressures here and in
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other countries that must be addressed, but while the military is eating up so much of our budgets those pressures cannot be lessened. That is why the peace dividend must be seized, and that is why I hope that the Minister of State for Defence Procurement will have his day.Enormous, wonderful events have taken place. This is a time of imagination, verve and elan, but I see none of that on the Conservative Benches but for one single exception. I hope that the Minister will be joined by some allies when Ministers come to discuss in detail how the British Government will redefine our defence policies.
8.23 pm
Sir Philip Goodhart (Beckenham) : Nearly half the Labour Members who have spoken today said that there should be an immediate defence review. I am sure that a major defence review is going on right now, but it is different from the previous great defence review that was carried out in 1981.
I remember the 1981 defence review very well, because certain misguided individuals in the Ministry of Defence suggested that drastic cuts should be made in the British Army of the Rhine. I was the Army Minister at that time and it was fairly easy to repel those arguments. First, we did not have the barracks or the trainee areas in this country to take back 30,000 men, particularly as the bulk of our armoured regiments and our gunner regiments served in Germany and had particularly heavy requirements for training areas. Secondly, it would have cost money to impose those cuts because of the redundancy terms that were in force. The extra cost of demobilising men as they stepped off the ferry would have been carried for about seven years. Therefore, BAOR remained unscathed.
Now, as the Warsaw pact has disintegrated and as German reunification will soon be completed, it is only too easy to imagine that we should be required to reduce the size of our forces in Germany from their present level of about 60,000 to about 20,000 in nine years' time. Nine years ago it was difficult to imagine that BAOR could cease to be our main defence commitment. Now it is difficult to imagine that it could possibly continue at anything like its present size for another nine years.
It is clear that any change will have a profound impact on the size, structure and life of the Army. For the first time in living memory it will mean that the bulk of the Army will be stationed at home. On 1 April last year, 66,000 out of 140,000 trained soldiers in our Army were serving overseas. That was a normal proportion. In the past 40 years, more than half our trained soldiers have regularly served overseas and that has meant that domestic turbulence has been normal. It is now probable that, in the comparatively near future, four fifths of our Army will be stationed regularly at home. That will have a profound impact on the way in which the Army receives a great deal of its professional support.
An Army largely based overseas needs special hospitals, schools and large legal departments to deal with foreign nationals. That has led to the swelling of specialist corps. An Army stationed at home will still need a great deal of professional support, but I am sure that some of our specialist corps could be cut drastically. Fighting units will
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always need doctors who are trained to go into combat, but I should be astonished if, in 10 years' time, we needed a Royal Army Medical Corps and even today I doubt whether we need a separate Royal Army Dental Corps.I was glad to read reports--I hope that they are accurate and that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary can confirm this--that plans are being drawn up to merge some of the smaller corps such as the Royal Army Pay Corps and the Royal Army Veterinary Corps into a new Adjutant-General's Corps. That is a sensible administrative move. There may also be scope for setting up a quartermaster-general's corps, which could include the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, the Royal Corps of Transport and the Royal Army Ordnance Corps.
There will certainly be a need to revise the future equipment requirement of the Army. As the threat of a major armoured battle on the central plains of Europe recedes, so does the need for a brand new Army battle tank. There are solid diplomatic grounds for not cancelling re-equipment projects while the discussions on the future of Germany are at a crucial phase and while problems have arisen in the CFE negotiations, but the Ministry of Defence has had ample experience of delaying contracts, and cutting costs must take priority over speed of delivery.
Research into new forms of armament and gunnery must continue. It would be a pity if the Iraqis were to have a monopoly on that sort of long-range development. In a world that will continue to be a dangerous place, we must maintain an Army that is versatile and flexible. As many of my hon. Friends have said, that means keeping the largest possible number of infantry battalions. Those battalions need not all have the same role and the same training.
We shall need well-equipped, highly trained forces capable of rapid deployment inside and outside Europe. There is almost a majority of hon. Members present tonight who served in the Parachute Regiment. I too believe that that force must be based on the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Marine Commandos. The need for the Special Air Services is also likely to grow rather than diminish.
However, some battalions will have a more limited role and some of them could become hybrid, half regular and half reserve. The reservists in such hybrid battalions should have a commitment similar to the old ever-readies. Some of my hon. Friends will remember that the ever-readies in the 1960s had a higher training commitment than the normal Territorial Army volunteers and could be called up at short notice. For that commitment, the ever-readies received substantial extra annual funding.
The new ever-readies could be required to do a short period of basic training with the Regular Army. Indeed, in practice I expect that many of the new ever-readies would be ex-Regular soldiers. They would be expected to serve a month or two each year with their regular unit. They would have a high call-up ability and would be paid at least £1,000 a year for that commitment. While doing their annual training with their battalion, they would also receive Regular Army pay. Such an expanded reserve service will become possible once the bulk of the Army is stationed at home and it becomes unusual for battalions to move far from their home bases.
I wish Ministers well in their study of options for change and I hope that their thorough-going review will
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