House of Commons Hansard Debates for 12 Jun 1990

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welfare club. I believe that my membership of the latter entitles me to reciprocal membership of virtually every miners' welfare club in the country. It is important to remember that a club is not equivalent to a public house. Originally, the club was considered to be an extention of the home.

Clubs must keep a register of members and anybody who is not a member must be signed in for entry. Most club members would consider it a gross invasion of privacy if the police were allowed entry into clubs without a warrant. Most clubs operate a successful system of self-discipline and I do not know of any widespread abuse. If there is trouble in a club, even under the existing system the police can get a warrant to deal with the situation. In the final analysis, clubs are accountable not to the licensing board, but to the sheriff. The sheriff may refuse to renew a club's licence if there has been any misbehaviour, evidence of which has been given him by the police.

It is not just Labour Members who have expressed grave reservations about, not to say downright opposition to, the proposal. There are many types of social clubs--working people's clubs, ex-servicemen's clubs, British Legion clubs, sporting clubs, Labour clubs, miners' welfare clubs and even Conservative clubs. I appeal to the Minister to consult those in the House who speak on behalf of the Conservative clubs north and south of the border. He should ask them what they would think if they were sitting in their club having a private meeting when, suddenly, in burst the police without a warrant. That is a gross and unjustified intrusion.

Way back in 1976, the late Willie Ross was persuaded to withdraw a similar clause. He had a great deal of common sense and he listened to the views expressed by the public and by hon. Members. When the clause was considered on Report, my recollection is that it was withdrawn without being forced to a vote. In that connection, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing) who, as the Minister responsible for piloting the legislation through in 1976, listened to the views expressed by hon. Members. Although the Minister may think that he has good intentions and that those who support the clause are similarly minded, it would have a damaging effect on police-community relations in many parts of Scotland. There is also an understandable fear that, if the measure reaches the statute book, it is only a matter of time before clubs in England and Wales face the same threat.

Part IV deals with miscellaneous reforms, including penal reform. Recently I had occasion to visit the young offenders institution at Polmont, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, East. I was invited by the governor primarily to witness a great sporting event held to raise money to send youngsters from the Central Region to the special olympics. In my following remarks, I have no criticism of the governor or the staff at Polmont, but I am critical of the system that they are obliged to operate.

After the sporting event, I took the opportunity, at the governor's invitation, to look at some of the facilities available and speak to some of the inmates, I understand that Polmont was originally a borstal, with a fairly open regime. Recently, it has been surrounded with a perimeter fence and additional security arrangements have been introduced. The Minister will be aware from a parliamentary reply to me that that cost the taxpayer no less than £1.25 million.

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Given the increased security, I thought that all the inmates at Polmont were high-risk young offenders who had committed grevious offences. However, I must tell the Minister of a conversation I had with a young 16-year-old inmate who, for obvious reasons, shall remain nameless. I asked him how long he was in for and he said four weeks. When I asked him what he was in for, he said that it was for not paying a fine of £100. I asked him why he could not pay it and he said that he had no job and received only £22 a week on social security, of which £15 went to his mother for his keep. Yet the sheriff ordered him to pay the fine at £7 a week. Understandably, he fell behind in his payments and, as a consequence, he found himself in that high-security detention centre.

Does it make sense in terms of penal or economic policy to spend more than £1.25 million to surround such young people with a high-security fence and all the rest? Surely they would be better on a community service order or some other alternative to custodial punishment. Something could and should be done about such a situation. I am sure that that young man's case is not unique. There is a lot fundamentally wrong with Scotland's penal system in general. I must make it clear that I am not talking about Polmont when I say that, if people in our prisons are treated like animals, there will be a tendency for them to behave like animals. Long before the riots started in Strangeways, the track record of the penal system in Scotland under this Secretary of State for Scotland left a lot to be desired, with prisoners taking to the rooftops and prisoners and prison staff being subjected to violence and threats of violence. If inmates are treated in a barbaric fashion--it is not surprising that some of them sometimes behave in a barbaric fashion--and I am not justifying their actions by saying that. I hope that the Bill gives us the opportunity to discuss such matters. It would be a great pity if we were to miss the opportunity to bring about a radical reform of Scotland's penal system. There is not much that is good about the Bill, but today's Second Reading debate is encouraging in that, much more than in any other piece of Scottish legislation in this Parliament, valid points have been made in a conscientious manner from both sides of the House, sometimes with cross- party agreement. Therefore, I hope that, at a later stage, we will be able to have a positive and constructive debate, so that the Bill which emerges from the Standing Committee will be much improved on Report and Third Reading.

9.1 pm

Mr. Alistair Darling (Edinburgh, Central) : Because of the time, I shall truncate my speech. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) for giving some of his time to me. The lack of time only serves to illustrate the most important conclusion that many of us have drawn from the legislation--that the case for a Scottish Parliament has been made out.

It is well known that I was a doubter in 1979 but, for the record, I voted yes in the referendum for devolution for Scotland. Every day that we consider Scottish legislation in the House, I am more and more convinced that it is inappropriate to do so in this sort of environment, in this truncated time, with not a soul on the Conservative

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Benches other than the Ministers on the Front Bench. The case for these matters being discussed in Scotland by people who know the conditions there is overwhelming.

I must declare an interest as a member of the Faculty of Advocates. Because of lack of time, I do not intend to address myself to many of the measures that affect rights of audience. I should like to do so, but I cannot, because I am duty bound to raise matters that affect my constituents, particularly on licensing.

I am concerned about one aspect in particular--clause 39, which requires licensing boards to have regard to what is called the need in "the locality." What is the locality in central Edinburgh? Is it the immediate locality--for example, Stockbridge or Tollcross--the city centre, Edinburgh or the Lothians? What is the licensing board supposed to consider?

The problem in Edinburgh at present is that there are a large number of licensed premises in the comparatively small area of the city centre, and they are open for long periods. That causes those who live near them considerable inconvenience and irritation, particularly at night. As I said in an intervention to the Secretary of State, many of those premises are well run and cause no problem, but it is simply the presence of a large number of licensed permises open late at night, disgorging many people into the streets, which causes the problem. That is a problem that the Bill should address, but does not do so.

In the time available, I wish to describe a few things that could be done. The first will cost money. It is to allocate more money for police overtime. I have long believed that policemen on the beat on the streets late at night reduce both the number of general disturbances and the incidence of serious crime. They deter problems before they arise. Secondly, licensing boards should be given additional powers to close premises that cause problems on a temporary basis. That immediate deterrent would make many landlords who keep unruly houses--for want of a better word --keep their customers in order.

There is also a clear need to make it easier for ordinary people to object to late licences. At present, the odds are stacked in favour of the brewers and licensees. A simplified procedure under which it was not necessary to follow the exact statutory terms of the objection would make it much easier for not only those who live nearby but community councils and residents' associations to make their voices heard. Why not give them a right of appeal? The licensee can appeal to the sheriff court, so why cannot those who live near the nuisance? Some flexibility would be greatly welcomed by many of my constituents.

I cannot say any more about licensing because of the time, but I wish to mention several minor points which arose in the debate and about which I feel strongly, both as a Member of the House and as someone who has practised law.

Several comments have been made tonight about divorce. No one wants to make divorce easier, but that is not the question before us. Hon. Members might like to bear in mind the fact that, if one commits adultery the night after one gets married, one can get divorced immediately. The idea that somehow there is a two-year period before divorce can take place when there is consent and a five-year period when there is not, is nonsense. When we consider the nature of the institution of marriage, we

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should be in no doubt that, if one wants to, one can get divorced easily. I have never understood why it is necessary to shackle people in an unhappy domestic situation and an unhappy marriage when it is obvious that the partnership has broken down. I hope that the members of the Standing Committee will consider the practical effects on the individuals involved rather than worship an institution that may be worthless in the individual case.

I should have liked to mention several other matters in the Bill, but because of the time available it is not possible to do so. I conclude by saying that the two fundamental problems that people face in the provision of legal services are cost and often delay, particularly in the courts. The Bill does nothing to address either problem. It simply extends monopolies in certain cases. It does not get around the obvious problems of conflict of interests. It does not get round the problem that choice is not extended simply by increasing the number of people involved in providing legal services. Choice includes the quality and impartiality of the advice. It includes many things by which the Government do not seem to set any store.

In short, the Bill seems to monkey around with the present system, and at the end of the day, the consumers of legal services will not find the service greatly improved. Many other areas have not been considered, including no-fault liability or putting the resoluton of more disputes out of the legal environment.

I am grateful for this brief opportunity to touch on matters which are important to all of us who live in Scotland. I conclude where I started : it is a tragedy that the whole matter has been discussed here in a rush and in such circumstances, when it could and should be discussed 450 miles away to the benefit not only of people who live in the United Kingdom as a whole.

9.8 pm

Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill) : I too am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the Bill. I have a great deal to say about the inadequacies of the conveyancing system and about the appointment and preservation of judges on the Bench, but I shall save it for the Committee. On licensing, I do not see why people should be entitled to peace and quiet only on a Sunday. If local pensioners or mothers with young children are being annoyed by hooligans with carry-outs on any day of the week, they should expect the licensing boards to crack down on the supplier. In Committee, I shall be concerned to make it easier for the public to complain. Why should people have to take unpaid leave from work, wait outside the court for several hours, and then find that the case is not even to be heard? The licensing procedure is in a shambles, and something ought to be done about it. I want to draw particular attention to clause 34. For a five-year period to operate in the case of a contested divorce puts the non-consenting party in a very strong bargaining position. If that party has possession of the family home, the other partner is forced to find whatever accommodation they can. Not every local authority is particularly helpful, and it usually means a worsening by far of the housing standards that the individual must endure, possibly together with the children of the marriage. He or she might have to live on benefits or part-time earnings, while his or her share of the value of

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the marital home remains tied up until the divorce is finalised many years later. That places enormous pressure on that individual to settle and to accept an unfair deal.

If the other party wishes to remarry, an enforced wait of five years is far too long. It would often prevent the new couple from having children of their own for that considerable length of time. If the woman is close to an age when she knows that pregnancy could result in serious foetal abnormality, it may even prevent the couple from starting a family. What is the point of a five-year wait? Is it likely that many spouses who have refused to have anything to do with each other for two years will have a change of heart between the third and fifth year? I am likely to support the change in the Bill, but I will bring my remarks to a close, so that my hon. Friend on the Frong Bench can make his speech.

9.11 pm

Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North) : For the first time since I entered the House, I can say with entire sincerity at the conclusion of a Scottish debate that we have had an excellent and real debate, with people speaking from the heart and from the head rather than along party lines. I am delighted that that happened because the issues that we are confronting are extremely important, not only in parliamentary terms but to the social ethos of Scotland. The issues that we have debated have a real effect on the lives of many of our fellow citizens, and they have been approached with the seriousness that they justify.

As the Secretary of State for Scotland has only just rejoined us, I am sure that he will receive reports of the debate. He should be aware that probably the most scathing criticism of the Bill, with which I should not seek to compete, came from his own side of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn) described it as

"a bad Bill. It is a sandwich of stale bread and poisoned meat." I should not seek to improve on that short title. The hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) said that it was a pity that the House was not consulted before the Bill was brought before it. The hon. Member for Tayside, North (Mr. Walker) was, as befits of a man of his station, more cautious in his criticisms, but he too showed serious disagreement with many of the Bill's aspects.

We reiterate our anger at the way in which the Bill has been presented and the time scale that we have been offered. It is a major piece of legislation. As every hon. Member who has spoken recognised, its provisions should not be contained within a single Bill. Perhaps Professor Wilson of Edinburgh, who specialises in Scottish law, was exaggerating when he described it as the Scottish Law (Abolition) Bill. But, with the common consent of the House, it might be termed the Small Town Solicitor (Scotland) (Abolition) Bill.

The Bill embodies what should be a major piece of licensing legislation in its own right. It incorporates as an afterthought significant changes to Scotland's divorce laws that will crucially affect the lives and future happiness of hundreds and, in time, thousands of our fellow citizens. As a throwaway, it contains also charities law, without an iota of party politics in it, but involving significant reforms. Its miscellaneous provisions cover such matters as court proceedings and matrimonial homes. That is a huge gamut of extremely important measures.

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A Bill having the title of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Bill should conspicuously and unmistakably extend and strengthen the rights of the citizen. To win the approval of the House, it should enhance the availability and likelihood of justice, irrespective of the individual's ability to pay. By the common consent of the House, there is little in the Bill that readily suggests that it meets those criteria. There is no reference to the extension of legal aid and to what is probably the greatest legal controversy in Scotland at present, the use of warrant sales. Many large areas of Scottish law that are in need of reform are not addressed by the legislation.

I shall deal briefly with charities, because in the short time available I have no wish to reiterate issues that have already been dealt with in some detail. I support the concept of greater disclosure about the identity of charities, and the purposes for which they exist. I also believe, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk, West (Mr, Canavan), that there is a good case for including in the Bill provisions to examine the criteria and the basis upon which charities exist, and the charitable purposes of some organisations that are quite wrongly designated as charities. I have no doubt that in Committee one organisation that we shall be interested to inquire into is the Atlantic Salmon Trust. For the life of me, I cannot imagine how an organisation that is in the business of buying up salmon net fishings in Scotland to protect the vested financial interests of riparian owners there can possibly qualify as a charity. If that trust can be defined as a charity, I suspect that many other organisations are masquerading as charities when they should not be, and we shall certainly explore that in Committee. A small matter--almost a personal hobby horse-- is local charities or voluntary groups that have fallen by the wayside and become defunct. The knowledge of their past existence, perhaps stretching back for several decades, exists only in local folk memories. Perhaps they were never registered or formally wound up. There may be some confusion about whether they had any money and who is responsible for it. The information has disappeared into the mists of time. As things stand, the only beneficiaries of such confusion are the banks, where the money rests for ever and a day. I hope that so that their charitable funds may be merged or so that the bodies may be redefined in their purposes, as the Bill rightly proposes, there will be an onus on banks to declare the existence of dormant accounts belonging to all voluntary or charitable bodies registered or unregistered. Further steps can then be taken.

The largest area of contention in the Bill is legal services. I am the only hon. Member at either Dispatch Box who does not declare a vested interest, and who does not need to be addressed as learned. Personally, I think that that has more to do with the inadequacies of terminology in the House than with anything else.

It is crucial that legal services are subjected to the critical scrutiny not only of lawyers--we have heard plenty from them tonight--but of the consumers, the people who use such services. The consumer has a strong interest in distinguishing between genuine choice and the illusion of it. Simply because the Government refer to choice does not mean that it exists. The route to all the proposed reforms seems to be the part of the Bill that deals with conveyancing practitioners. The Secretary of State referred to the very high standard of service that is at

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present provided by solicitors in the sphere of conveyancing. I should have thought that a reasonable maxim for the Government is : if it is not broken, do not fix it. Yet we have this legislative basis for the introduction of conveyancing practitioners. The terminology suggests a new breed of person who will deal with conveyancing as if it were a separate compartment of the law, apart from all others. It is like a heart surgeon not being required to know anything about what happens in the arms and legs.

If he is to fulfil his conveyancing responsibilities, the conveyancing practitioner--whether he is a solicitor or not--will need to have a real understanding of the law of contract, property law, company law, bankruptcy law, the law of succession, taxation law, the Matrimonial Homes (Family Protection) (Scotland) Act 1981, and doubtless many more Acts. If that person does not hold the required professional knowledge of all those branches of the law, how can his performance compare with that of the solicitor who is regarded as competent in them all? The public should not have foisted upon them, in the name of choice, a conveyancing practitioner who is less well qualified than those who are already available to them.

The theory is that choice will be extended. Choice, however, will not be extended if all that is available is a lesser breed of practitioner. Choice will certainly not be extended if solicitors lose the essential income that allows them to practise conveyancing, thereby forcing the consumer into the hands of a diminishing number of practices. That problem ties straight in with the question of multi-disciplinary practices.

The hon. Member for Dumfries made an interesting point when he referred to difficulties over the legal definition of a rural area and an urban area. Solicitors in small towns may disappear and be replaced by a multi- disciplinary practice, which could be in Dumfries, Perth and Inverness. I do not accept that a few glossy, one-door practices in the larger towns and cities of Scotland are any substitute for the large network of solicitors that can be found in virtually every town, and sometimes in the villages of Scotland. That, however, is a real possibility if the Bill is enacted in its present form. It will push people towards the bigger practices, towards the one-door approach. Many of those professional services will be offered by only a few larger business organisations instead of by a large number of small organisations at local level.

Reference has been made to first-time buyers. I should like to give my personal experience under the existing system, not under the system that is envisaged in the legislation. When I bought my first flat in the west end of Glasgow I went, in all innocence, to an estate agent in Byres road. I apologise if I am revealing disturbing middle-class tendencies, but my first priority was to secure that flat. I was much more worried about that than about shopping around. From the time I entered that estate agency I was carried along inexorably on a magical mystery tour. It took me first to a back room in the office where I was "advised" about mortgage facilities. I was then carried, even more mysteriously, to a solicitor's practice in an upstairs attic in Hamilton. Eventually I ended up in a bank in Busby. That was the result of taking the first basic step of going through an estate agent's door in Byres road, Glasgow. There may

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have been--although I would not have noticed them--many funny handshakes during that magical mystery tour, but the point is that, even as matters stand now, there is not a one-door approach but an interlinked approach.

I know that there is considerable concern in the Law Society and elsewhere about such operations. If anything, the Bill should be trying to put a stop to such practices rather than formalising and legitimising them through multi-disciplinary practices that will extend the principle far beyond the experience that I described. Multi-disciplinary practices might mean that an inexperienced person buying a house will find it difficult to resist the pressure to go from one stop to the next in the way in which I described, and will provide a greater deterrent to the person saying, "I do not want to go to the professional associate just up the corridor to whom you are trying to direct me." If we are trying to establish choice and if we want people to consider their options independently-- that is exactly what they should be able to do--putting all the disciplines under one roof with all the pressures that will then be incumbent upon people is the antithesis of choice.

In small and medium-sized towns in Scotland, enterprising solicitors might decide to fight back against the development of multi-disciplinary practices and might say, "A multi-disciplinary practice in Perth is taking our business away ; we shall try to extend the same facilities to our clients in Blairgowries. We shall try to give them the same package on the spot." But under the Bill such a solicitor is prevented from doing so because of the incomprehensible distinction that it draws between those firms that have court practices and those that do not. So solicitors who are partly dependent upon court practices will have to either give that up or abandon the idea of becoming a small multi-disciplinary practice. Once again I cannot see how that in any way extends choice.

My great fear is that there will be an erosion of legal services. I shall not go over the ground again about the dependency on conveyancing work in small solicitors' firms. If we take that away from them, undoubtedly we shall diminish access to the other legal services that they provide.

On the subject of the Scottish Conveyancing and Executry Services Board that is proposed in the Bill, the English equivalent has been legislated for in such a way as to provide a balance of interest between providers and consumers. That is the least that we would expect in Scotland. We welcome unreservedly the creation of the ombudsman post, but we should also welcome some sanction. I understand that the English legislation introduced the concept of £1, 000 maximum compensation at the behest of the Law Society, and I believe that such a sanction should apply to Scotland. Again, many constituency cases involve people who have been through the entire process of the Law Society, the ombudsman and so on but achieve no satisfaction.

I give notice that Labour Members and, I believe, the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) will table an amendment in Committee to allow the cost of a survey in a conveyancing transaction to be borne by the seller. That idea might put a few cats among the pigeons.

I shall not go over the same ground again on rights of audience. I speak as a non-lawyer, but the issue may be seen by some people as a matter of internal dispute among lawyers. It will not be discussed in that way in Committee,

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as at the end of the day it is the consumer or the person consulting the lawyer who matters and we want to ensure that they have access to the best available people. I found the points made by the hon. and learned Member for Perth and Kinross fairly powerful. I wish to move on quickly to the licensing provisions. We could spend the night regretting the rushed and confused way in which the whole matter has been presented to us. I have no doubt that the Scottish licensing laws need serious reform and review. Some of the aims of Dr. Clayson and of the subsequent legislation have been fulfilled. There have been some improvements in Scotland's licensing laws and licensing provision, but no one who knows anything about the nuts and bolts of Scottish society can be in any doubt that there is much to be done in terms of licensing and alcohol. I do not say that in an unco' guid or patronising way--far from it. If we are to seek serious improvements in Scottish society, licensing laws should not be the subject of a subsection but should be a matter of serious review. Whatever our generation may have seen, we do not see anything much better in the attitudes of young people towards drink. They are subjected to advertising pressure by breweries pouring money into campaigns to make drink seem an essential adjunct of every activity. We want a different approach to drink in Scotland.

If people were to be asked in a survey on licensing laws in Scotland how to get a better attitude towards drink, I suspect that the last proposal of 99 per cent. would be to open the off-licences on a Sunday afternoon. That does not seem to be a social reform that is much in demand. Many, but by no means all, off-sales premises in Scotland, especially in inner-city areas, are part of the problem rather than of the potential solution. When one walks into the shops that are selling from behind high wire fences an extremely limited selection of extremely potent beverages, I do not think that one can see any part of what Dr. Christopher Clayson had in mind for the liberalising reform of Scottish licensing laws. Opening on a Sunday will do no one any favours, other than the people who own those shops.

In the context of pub opening hours, the Secretary of State spoke of Sunday as a time for peace and quiet. Why should not it also be a time of peace and quiet for people who live next door to an off-sales premises and who often suffer at least as much discomfort and environmental intrusion as those living next door to public houses? As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) said, these will be matters for a free vote among Labour Members, so I am stating what is largely a personal view.

On club licences and police access, it is essential to note that there has been no demand for the measure from those clubs. We heard from the Secretary of State that 18 community councils in Scotland--a small proportion--are in favour of such a measure. Perhaps more significantly, we heard that four licensed trade organisations favour giving the police access to social clubs. With respect, of course four licensed trade organisations are in favour, because that is a device which they see for eventually getting rid of competition and the different kind of establishment that social clubs offer. The issue is of interest not only north of the border--which it would immediately affect--but in the south. I note from a letter from the Committee of Registered Clubs Associations that, if the Secretary of State goes ahead with

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the proposal, he will have not only the opposition of his Back Benchers but the unremitting opposition of the Royal British Legion clubs, the Royal Naval Association clubs, the Royal Air Force Association clubs, the National Union of Labour and Socialist Clubs, the National Union of Liberal Clubs and the Working Men's Club and Institute Union Ltd. Perhaps most ominously for the right hon. and learned Gentleman, the letter added :

"We are also of one accord with a similar view held by the Association of Conservative Clubs on this issue."

I should like to place on record the views of the Law Society of Scotland, because it was ungracious of the Secretary of State not to allow my hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) to provide a point of information. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not give way, I must provide that information. The Law Society of Scotland states :

"Clause 46 provides that a police constable may enter a club at any reasonable time. He does not need a warrant or reasonable suspicion of a crime to be able to exercise his right of entry. This does not put clubs on an equal footing with pubs.

This clause was in the Bill when introduced by the Lord Advocate in the Lords and its exact terms were only known then. In view of its terms the Law Society considers that it requires amendment in order to prevent undue restriction of the liberty of the individual and to preserve, in a manner consistent with good public order, the privacy of the individual."

I am glad that the record can be set straight.

We are all members of clubs. I note from "Who's Who" that both the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State are members of the New club in Edinburgh. The Under-Secretary of State is also a member of the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers. If the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State were having a small refreshment in the New club, they would not be terribly pleased if the police exercised their right to enter every hour on the hour because of a little local upset, such as members misbehaving in the street.

However, that is not the reality. The clubs that would be far more likely to be affected are those to which ordinary folk go to have a relaxed social evening. If the Secretary of State goes ahead with the proposal, he will introduce more problems than such a measure is likely to resolve.

The mere fact that it takes so long to go through the Bill illustrates the rag bag of measures with which we are dealing tonight under the title of one Bill. Few of the measures, as has been ably demonstrated tonight, have many friends among Conservative or Opposition Members. I assure the Secretary of State that we shall contribute to the process of healthy debate and that every time we defeat one of the measures in the Bill with Conservative Members, we hope to be invited by the hon. Member for Dumfries to join him in a large Laphroaig.

9.36 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) : This has been an especially good debate. It has been useful to have the evidence of the hon. Member for Falkirk, East (Mr. Ewing), who piloted the Licensing (Scotland) Bill through in 1976. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) also expressed strong views at that time. Five of those who took part today are lawyers. However, I am glad to say that the majority of those who contributed were not. Three of those who are lawyers have had the

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distinction of being the junior counsel to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Perth and Kinross (Sir N. Fairbairn) and are still here to talk about it.

I want to give an example of an issue on which we should like to reflect. I was asked by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Dewar) and by the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) why a provision for evidence by television link for children in sexual offences cases was not included in the Bill. The Scottish Law Commission published its report on the evidence of children and other potentially vulnerable witnesses in February this year. The report makes a number of recommendations on the giving of evidence by children and by other vulnerable witnesses. The recommendations are now being considered. I want to reflect on the points made by hon. Members and we shall return to the matter later in Committee.

Dr. Godman : I have listened carefully to the Minister on this important matter. Will he give the House an assurance that his officials will give careful attention to the experiences gained by English courts vis -a-vis the Criminal Justice Act 1988 and, in particular, clause 23?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I will certainly make a point of looking with particular care at that. I do not mean only my officials, but Ministers, as we are responsible. I would not come forward with proposals unless I felt that I could satisfy the House on them. There have been substantial criticisms of the Bill on the ground that it covers too wide an area. We belive that it is better to take the opportunity presented by such a Bill rather than to wait for two or three individual Bills, which would necessitate many Second Reading debates and subsequent Committees. I stress to the House that we shall approach the Committee in a constructive spirit and that we shall accede to amendments when they contain reasonable and well-thought-out proposals. Even when they do not, if they have well- thought-out principles, we shall act on them. We shall listen with the utmost care to what is said.

The hon. Member for Linlithgow (Mr. Dalyell) raised the point about what the Law Society had said. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State correctly recorded its representations during consultation that year. However, in the past two days, the Law Society has sent in written representations expressing concern, as the hon. Member for Linlithgow said, and we shall look at those with particular concern.

Mr. Dalyell : I accept that there was a genuine misunderstanding : the Secretary of State did not have in his hands the letter that the rest of us had.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : The matter will be looked at with great care. In the other place, more than 800 amendments were tabled in Committee and on Report and nearly 300 were carried. Although many of those 300 were Government amendments, many of them represented a response to arguments advanced during our debates. I have every confidence that the hon. Members who serve on the Standing Committee will rise to the challenge and that the outcome will be a measure of significant and lasting benefit to Scotland.

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I am particularly aware of the concerns expressed about conveyancing and about rural solicitors. I have been employed by rural solicitors in the past, and I assure the House that we shall look at the matter carefully.

Each of the Bill's four constituent parts is intended to confer significant benefits on Scotland. Part I deals with charities. Given the important role that charities play in Scottish life, they must have the confidence and respect of the public. The obvious way of preserving the good will that they enjoy is to ensure that all charities are accountable for the way in which they conduct their operations and the way in which they employ the resources that they have in their care. The Bill is important because it gives the public the right to be informed of the bodies that have received recognition as charities.

Shortly after my appointment as a junior Minister, I visited UK 2000, which said that Scottish charities were at a disadvantage in relation to their English counterparts because the necessary access-to-information arrangements were not in place. The Bill requires a charity to provide on request a copy of its explanatory documents--for example, a trust deed or other document setting out its aims and objectives. It is especially relevant that members of the public will now be able to acquire the necessary information. Some hon. Members are concerned that there is nothing in the Bill to require the Inland Revenue to maintain a register or index of charities to which the public has access. Although the point is not made explicit in the Bill, I am happy to assure hon. Members that the Inland Revenue will maintain a microfiche index of the Scottish bodies that they have recognised as charitable. Members of the public will be able to call in person to consult the index or to write or telephone for information about specific charities. The Inland Revenue will be able to tell members of the public the names and addresses of the bodies that it has recognised. Armed with that information, members of the public will be able, as of right, to obtain copies of the charity's accounts, together with reports of their recent activities and, if required, a copy of the founding deed.

Part II of the Bill seeks to achieve our overriding aim of providing reforms to improve the provision of legal services to the consumer. We intend to do that by increasing the choice of legal services and, where possible, improving consumer protection mechanisms. The measures in part II have been prepared fully to reflect the distinctive characteristics of Scottish law. In another place, we had the benefit of the views of members of the Scottish judiciary, and many amendments were made as a result.

In putting together the licensing package, our general approach was to heed the majority view. We aimed to achieve three objectives : first, to enhance the more civilised regime that has been in place since 1976 ; secondly, wherever possible, to remove red tape from the procedures ; and, thirdly, to tighten up the law where practical experience of the operation of the existing provisions suggested that that was needed. I have no doubt that we shall devote a good deal of time in Committee to the details of the provisions.

The Government will be willing to consider whether the objectives to which I have referred can be achieved more easily if adjustments are made. We intend to move carefully, as it is clear to us, from the many representations that we have received, that there is widespread and strong feeling in Scotland concerning the details of the licensing

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regime. Our intention must be to ensure changes which confer clear practical benefits on Scotland and which are seen to secure such benefits.

Part IV of the Bill contains an important package of miscellaneous reforms. A number of the provisions are intended to improve and expand social work services in respect of the criminal justice system in Scotland and have the objective of increasing the range of alternatives to imprisonment.

For example, the measures on fines are intended to make the fines system operate more effectively in practice and to reduce the incidence of imprisonment for fine default among those less able to pay. I will look into the point raised by the hon. Member for Falkirk, West (Mr. Canavan) about Polmont, although some of the issues involved in that may be beyond the scope of the Bill. I will write to the hon. Gentleman in due course.

It comes as no surprise that very diverging views have been expressed about divorce in the debate. The Scottish Law Commission discovered from its public opinion survey about the desirability of changing the law that no reform of the divorce laws will please everyone. However, one of the main reasons for trying to reduce unnecessary use of the behaviour ground is to minimise unnecessary hostility in the interests of the children in the marriage. In nearly 50 per cent. of divorce actions, the grounds for divorce are based on the behaviour of the defender. Although of course there are instances in which the behaviour of the defender is indeed the real cause of the breakdown of the marriage, there is reason to believe that many actions are raised on behavioural grounds simply because of the length of the separation periods. No doubt the pursuer would prefer not to make allegations against his or her spouse, but is advised that, unless behaviour is used, there will be a delay of at least two years from the date of separation.

Reducing the periods should make it easier for parties to focus on the welfare of the children, because they will not need to resort to recriminations about each other's behaviour. That is the moral justification for the measure. However, I appreciate that there are strong views on that subject which no doubt will be dealt with fully in Committee.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) that divorce is a last resort, and we are not touching the provisions on reconciliation. While separation periods should be long enough to substantiate a breakdown, it would be wrong for them to be even longer. Having no statutory period would encourage parties to manufacture evidence about each other rather than to focus on the welfare of their children.

Sir Nicholas Fairbairn : If the argument is correct that reducing the period would make people concentrate on the welfare of their children, presumably a statutory period of separation of seven days would benefit the children.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : Those are matters of judgment and balance. I suggest that my hon. and learned Friend is going a little too far.

I could say an awful lot about charities, but many hon. Members referred to the legal services, so I will deal with some of the important amendments that will be tabled in that regard. A Government amendment will be tabled in Committee to make regulations under clauses 15 and 17 subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in both

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Houses of Parliament. Regulations under clause 15 will deal with the registration criteria for conveyancing practitioners and the codes of conduct and practice that will govern such practitioners once they are registered. Regulations under clause 70 will cover the conduct and practice of executry practitioners and the educational qualifications and practical training that will be required of those undertaking executry business.

There is also considerable merit in the proposition that bodies applying for rights of audience or rights to conduct litigation under clause 23 should make their application available for public inspection, and that the Lord President and the Secretary of State should have regard to objections received when considering whether to grant such an application. Therefore, amendments will be tabled requiring those making the application to advertise that fact and to make copies of the draft scheme for regulating their members' exercise of any practising rights available for public inspection. The Lord President and the Secretary of State will then be required to consider any representations made about any application by outside bodies before reaching a final decision.

Mr. Wilson : Does the Minister agree that the list of Government amendments of which he is giving notice at the Dispatch Box, in addition to the fact that we will have at most five weeks to consider the Bill, contributes to the feeling that we are facing a period of chaos in an attempt to pass this important legislation? Will he respond to the point which is supported by Members on both sides of the House : that the Government should take the Bill away and reconsider it or we should extend its consideration beyond the summer?

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I have no doubt that, just as the hon. Member for Falkirk, East was able to persuade hon. Members to rise to the occasion when he took his Bill through the House, so we shall rise to the occasion and be capable of serving our constituents well enough to sit long enough to do justice to this measure. We also believe that there is need for a review procedure for rules, and we shall introduce proposals on that subject.

The ombudsman will certainly have teeth, as hon. Members have requested. We propose to extend the list of exclusions from eligibility for the post of Scottish legal services ombudsman to members and officers of the Scottish Conveyancing and Executry Services Board and conveyancing and executry practitioners and their employers.

Several Hon. Members rose --

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I will not give way because I am anxious in the short time available to deal with the whole issue of conveyancing.

It is important that solicitors should be fairly treated. A vital point is that conveyancing practitioners must offer prospective clients an interview close to home or to the property being conveyed before any instructions are accepted. It must be with a qualified person--that is, a solicitor or, in time, a qualified conveyancer--and that will be dealt with by way of regulations.

Similarly, each service must be priced separately so that clients can see if cheap conveyancing is being paid for from elsewhere. Also, each transaction must be supervised by a qualified person with whom the client will be able to deal

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on a personal level. Agency arrangements will be possible, with conveyancing practitioners employing local solicitors to do conveyancing work, including interviews, for them.

The hon. Member for Garscadden asked whether banks and building societies would do conveyancing. Hon. Members will have noted from the briefing circulated by the Council of Mortgage Lenders that it is unlikely that large institutions will wish to operate as conveyancers outside large population centres. That is a further reassurance that the viability of legal practices in rural areas will not be compromised.

It has been argued that rural solicitors will see a large proportion of their fee income removed by competition. The argument is that such solicitors are able to stay in business only because of the fees they receive. In such circumstances, it could be suggested that conveyancing fees are higher than they need be to provide a fair return on the provision of conveyancing services in isolation. Neither the Secretary of State nor I accept that the imposition of what may be high conveyancing fees is necessarily the best way of maintaining the existing network of rural solicitors' offices.

Mrs. Margaret Ewing : No hon. Member has suggested at any stage in the debate that higher fees are being charged for conveyancing in rural practices. We have pointed out that as much as 80 per cent. of the income of those practices is dependent on conveyancing fees. That is the bread and butter of those offices. If they lose that, they will not be able to provide the other vital services.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton : I understood that the suggestion was that there had been cross-subsidisation--the hon. and learned Member for Fife, North-East (Mr. Campbell) used that expression--although I accept that the hon. Lady did not say that.

We have undertaken research to establish the present accessability of the people of Scotland to solicitors' offices. The results of that exercise are now available and I am placing copies of the report in the Library. Using the most recent available data, we see that 98 per cent. of the population of Scotland live within five miles of a solicitor's office in urban areas and within 10 miles in rural areas. [ Hon. Members :-- "Rubbish."] It is not rubbish. We have conducted a survey. Furthermore, we will repeat the survey, probably in 1993, to monitor the situation and compare the position, recognising that any change will be the product of a number of factors.

The argument that rural solicitors will suffer substantially also implies that the location and structure of solicitors' practices will be unchanging over time were it not for the effects of the Bill. That is not so. The solicitors' profession is far from static : it is continually changing in response to factors such as clients' needs, population shifts and trends in practice. There has been a trend towards larger practices, reflecting increasing complexity in the law and of clients' needs. We believe that this dynamic process is bound to lead to a shifting geographical pattern of outlets and to amalgamations and regroupings.

One important feature of the conveyancing code of practice to be made in regulations will be the free interview with a solicitor or qualified conveyancer, which all practitioners will be obliged to offer--

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