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House of Commons
Thursday 21 June 1990
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[ Mr. Speaker-- in the Chair ]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
South Yorkshire Light Rail Transit (No. 2) Bill
(By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [20 June], That this House doth agree with the Lords in their Amendments. Lords amendments agreed to.
Associated British Ports (No. 2) Bill
(By Order) Order for consideration of Lords amendments read.
To be considered on Monday 25 June at Seven o'clock.
Redbridge London Borough Council Bill.
(By Order) Order for consideration of Lords amendments read.
To be considered on Thursday 28 June.
Birmingham City Council
(No. 2) Bill-- (By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [26 February],
That the Bill be now considered.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 28 June.
British Railways (No. 2) Bill
(By Order)
Medway Tunnel Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Orders for consideration, as amended, read.
To be considered on Thursday 28 June.
Mr. Speaker : As all the remaining private Bills set down for Second Reading have blocking motions, with the leave of the House I shall put them as a single group.
Cattewater Reclamation Bill
(By Order)
Shard Bridge Bill
(By Order)
Vale of Glamorgan (Barry Harbour) Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
London Underground Bill
(By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 28 June.
Exmouth Docks Bill
(By Order)
Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [29 March],
That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 28 June.
Great Yarmouth Port Authority Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
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Heathrow Express Railways Bill
[Lords](By Order) Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 28 June.
London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Bill
(By Order) Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question proposed [10 May],
That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Debate further adjourned till Thursday 28 June.
Southampton Rapid Transit Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Port of Tyne Bill
[Lords] (By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time on Thursday 28 June.
Oral Answers to Questions
NORTHERN IRELAND
Cross-border Security
1. Mr. John Marshall : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met the Irish Prime Minister to discuss cross-border security.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Brooke) : I called briefly on the Taoiseach when I visited Dublin on 28 May. The usual forum for discussing cross-border security issues is, however, the Anglo- Irish Conference, the last meeting of which took place on 19 April. A copy of the joint statement issued after that meeting has been placed in the Library.
Mr. Marshall : Does my right hon. Friend agree that terrorism will be defeated only when there is no haven for terrorists anywhere in Ireland? In view of that, will he raise with the Irish Prime Minister the failures of the Republic in respect of extradition?
Mr. Brooke : I hope that my hon. Friend will accept an amendment to his statement. Terrorism will be defeated only when there is no safe haven for terrorists anywhere. On the second part of his question, we discussed extradition at great length at the Anglo-Irish Conference on 19 April, as a result of which a working party of officials was set up to discuss and review the present provisions against terrorism.
Mr. Maginnis : Would not it be better if those who talk about cross- border security were advised to regard it in cross-frontier terms? That would bring home to them the international aspect of terrorism and perhaps prompt them to think about the lack of co-operation on extradition between the Irish Republic and the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic and West Germany. Why should hon. Members believe that there is any difference in attitude between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland in terms of the land frontier between north and south when we see what happens in the courts of the Irish Republic?
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Mr. Brooke : I understand the hon. Gentleman's question, but the heart of the problem lies in the legislation rather than the action taken by the courts. We regard the Irish judiciary as independent in the same way as we hope that the Republic regards our judiciary as independent. The working group of officials will consider the legislation.Mr. Dykes : I hope to remain meticulously in order, Mr. Speaker, but I should say that an explosion took place at an air force base in my constituency this morning. Does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State agree that it is important to have further discussions with the Ministry of Defence about cross-border security in Northern Ireland and security on the mainland? We must ensure that there is increasingly effective co-operation with the Irish Republic on those matters in view of the obvious connection between IRA terrorism in the island of Ireland and the recent explosions on the mainland. Fortunately, in my constituency there were no casualties.
Mr. Brooke : I entirely appreciate why my hon. Friend raises the sad event that occurred in his constituency today. We must all be grateful that no serious inuries arose. The security of defence bases is more a question for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and, of course, I shall draw his attention to it.
Mr. McNamara : The Secretary of State rightly said that there should be no safe haven for terrorists anywhere, so will he ask his right hon. Friends to raise with the Trevi group the possibility of a criminal law jurisdiction agreement for the Community? We would then be able to avoid the confrontations that occasionally arise between the Irish and British Governments on extradition. The right hon. Gentleman should remember that there are a lot of other places where people have been awaiting extradition for a long time--three IRA suspects in France are awaiting extradition to West Germany. It is important to remember that the problem is not one between us and the Republic of Ireland, but is a European one, and it should be dealt with on that basis.
Mr. Brooke : I read with interest the article that the hon. Gentleman contributed the other day along those lines. All suggestions as to how we achieve greater collective co-operation against terrorism are valuable and no doubt the Trevi group will consider suggestions such as the hon. Gentleman has mentioned.
Cultural Heritage
2. Dr. Woodcock : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what proposals he has to develop the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland ; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Dr. Brian Mawhinney) : Last year I introduced the cultural traditions programme aimed at promoting the greater understanding and appreciation of the shared cultural heritage of Northern Ireland and of its diversities. The budget this year is about £1.4 million. In addition, as part of education reform in Northern Ireland, cultural heritage will be taught as a compulsory cross-curricular theme. The key aim is to enable pupils to know about, understand and evaluate the diverse and distinctive aspects of their cultural heritage.
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Dr. Woodcock : Does my hon. Friend agree that that programme and those which I hope he will introduce in the future can make a significant contribution to breaking down the alienation between the two communities?
Dr. Mawhinney : Many people would agree that it is unfortunate that aspects of Northern Ireland's cultural traditions have become politicised. There is much to be gained through understanding and appreciating the richness of the cultural diversity in Northern Ireland, and we are seeking to promote that.
Mr. Trimble : Will the Minister assure us that the programme will pay due regard to the cultural heritage of the majority of people in Northern Ireland? The Ulster museum is currently putting on an exhibition entitled "Kings in Conflict" which helps to repair the serious omissions caused by the political censorship of the exhibition held in London in 1988. Will he take steps to cover the financial loss with which the Ulster museum is threatened which is almost entirely due to the failure of the museum in Dublin to honour its undertakings to show the exhibition there, too?
Dr. Mawhinney : The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question is yes. As to the second part, we are already involved in helping to support the "Kings in Conflict" exhibition.
Mr. Kilfedder : May I congratulate the Minister on the community funding? He is aware that much needs to be done to promote a greater interest in the cultural heritage of Northern Ireland which, together with the rest of Ireland, is intermingled with that of Britain and Scotland. That has been so throughout the centuries and even before Christian times-- St. Patrick was not the first Brit to go to Ireland. Does he agree that the more people become aware of that rich cultural heritage, the closer together people will come in Northern Ireland? Perhaps that closeness would also be shared between the people of Ireland and Britain.
Dr. Mawhinney : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his kind personal remarks. I entirely agree with his analysis and appreciate his support for a variety of cross-community and cross-cultural activities over the years.
North Eastern Education and Libraries Board
3. Mr. Harry Barnes : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he last met representatives of the North Eastern education and libraries board to discuss educational provision.
Dr. Mawhinney : The last formal meeting was on 28 April 1989.
Mr. Barnes : Why are community workshops and training centres in Northern Ireland being forced out of the further education college sector? The North Eastern education and libraries board has announced the redundancy of 26 college lecturers. Should not there be proper consultation with the college lecturers so that their redeployment can be considered, the whole issue discussed and, even better, the crazy plan dropped?
Dr. Mawhinney : The hon. Gentleman has the first part of his supplementary question slightly wrong in that the
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provision of training for young people is being discussed. There has been a considerable variation in colleges in quality of training and in the cost of youth training programme places, ranging from £2, 000 to £7,000, although not related to quality.The hon. Gentleman talks about 26 redundancies in the North Eastern board. I pay tribute to the board as one of the five in Northern Ireland which do an excellent job delivering education in schools and further education colleges. The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, following consultation, there will not be 26 forced redundancies. Through natural wastage, redeployment and voluntary early retirement, there are likely to be only two redundancies.
Rev. Ian Paisley : Is the Minister aware that tonight on "Spotlight" there will be an exposure of a very serious matter that has arisen at the Derry youth and community workshop, headed by Mitchell M'Loughlin, one of the leaders of the IRA Sinn Fein, where £25,000 has gone missing this year? Will the Minister make a statement about that?
Dr. Mawhinney : I was not aware of that programme.
Mr. Beggs : As a former chairman of the North Eastern board, I welcome the interest that hon. Members are showing in it. Does the Minister agree that the board enjoys a high reputation with the teachers' unions for the sympathetic way in which it, with the support of the Department of Education, has dealt with redundancies? Will the Minister also join me in advising employers in Great Britain and elsewhere who face shortages of highly skilled graduates, technicians and a well-educated work force, that the North Eastern board and we in Northern Ireland have been preparing our young people to meet the challenges of not only 1992 but the 21st century? Will the Minister ask the Parliamentary Under-Secretary to urge the Industrial Development Board and other agencies associated with seeking inward investment to use the open invitation from the North Eastern board to them and their clients to visit our schools and colleges and see the skills and levels of achievement of all our young people?
Dr. Mawhinney : I am happy to endorse what the hon. Gentleman says about the good relationship between the North Eastern board and the schools and colleges in its area and the good practice there, some of which was established under his distinguished chairmanship. I am happy to join the hon. Gentleman in pointing out to the rest of the United Kingdom the high quality of training which we believe will be enhanced by the new arrangements, and the opportunity not only for Northern Ireland young people to go to England, Scotland and Wales for jobs but for Great Britain firms to invest in Northern Ireland and make use of the skilled work force and the amenities there.
The hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that within the past 48 hours the Parliamentary Under-Secretary and I have discussed the invitation to firms to visit schools in the North Eastern board area.
Mr. Alton : I congratulate the Minister on the additional provision that he has made for the Irish language in each of the five boards in Northern Ireland. What plans does he
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have to extend Irish language provision throughout the Province and what discussions is he currently having with representatives on that important matter?Dr. Mawhinney : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those remarks. The position of the Irish language is safeguarded in the education reform new curriculum proposals in Northern Ireland. In addition, as part of the cultural heritage and cultural traditions programme, extra money has been made available to the Ultach Trust, which is seeking to develop the Irish language in Northern Ireland in its cultural context. I welcome that, because, as with a number of other subjects in Northern Ireland, these issues should be removed from the political arena and put back in the cultural affairs arena where they belong.
Security
4. Mr. Ron Brown : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation in Northern Ireland.
6. Rev. Ian Paisley : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the security situation in Northern Ireland.
12. Mr. Cryer : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the current security situation.
Mr. Brooke : Since I answered a similar question on 10 May 1990, there have been three deaths arising from the security situation in Northern Ireland. Mr. Patrick Boyle, a civilian, was murdered at his home by so-called loyalists, while Mr. James Sefton, a retired member of the RUC reserve, and his wife Ellen were killed in an under-car booby-trap attack carried out by republican terrorists. The whole House will join me in condemning those cowardly and brutal crimes. However, large amounts of arms and explosives have been recovered, and in the first four months of this year the numbers of people charged by the police and convicted by the courts have increased over the same period in 1989.
Mr. Brown : We all abhor that carnage, but the Minister must know that there can be no solution in Ireland, particularly to the security issue, unless there is a political solution. There must be some movement towards that end, so will he consider
withdrawing--perhaps on a phased basis--troops from Northern Ireland, especially Scots troops? [Interruption.] That would be helpful. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to maintain peace he should encourage worker defence squads-- [Interruption.] --composed of Catholics and workers. If he cannot accept that--for reasons which I understand--what about a United Nations peace-keeping force coming into the Province to control the situation? [Interruption.] That would give some credibility to the hope that one day the north will return to its normal place in political life and that both communities can act together against orange and green bosses.
Mr. Brooke : The work of the security forces must be complemented and reinforced by effective political, economic and social policies. In that sense I concur with the hon. Gentleman's remarks that political development is desirable.
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As for the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's long question, although I do not question for a moment the sincerity with which he made his points, the reception that they got from the House suggested that not many hon. Members were in sympathy with him.Rev. Ian Paisley : Has the Secretary of state given any attention to the threat issued in Bodenstown by Gerry Adams, the IRA Sinn Fein leader, and others, who said on Sunday that if there was any political progress in Northern Ireland towards devolution they would fiercely oppose it with all the power at their disposal? Does not that give the lie to the suggestion by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown) that political discussions would bring IRA activities to an end?
What does the right hon. Gentleman think about "hot pursuit", which has been repudiated by the Taoiseach at a conference held with European Ministers?
Mr. Brooke : I believe that the words of Mr. Adams which the hon. Gentleman quoted show the contempt of the IRA and of Sinn Fein for political development without the use of violence. They also show the significance in Mr. Adams' mind of violence in the conduct of political affairs.
"Hot pursuit", which has arisen in the context of other European conversations because of other treaties that have been passed, is a subject which the Government will continue to keep on the agenda, but it requires discussion with the Government of the Republic.
Mr. Cryer : Does the Secretary of State accept that there has been a sad toll of carnage over 22 years, often resulting in the tragic loss of life of wholly innocent bystanders? Will he explain to the House any new initiative that is likely to end this carnage? Does he accept that outside the House there is widespread support for the phased removal of troops? Does he agree that all parties must be involved in negotiations to achieve that, even though I share the Government's reluctance to deal with some organisations? He should remember that in the case of Zimbabwe the Government overcame their reluctance to negotiate with Robert Mugabe and that led to a peaceful settlement at Lancaster house.
Mr. Brooke : The overriding task of the Government in Northern Ireland is to defeat terrorism from whichever side of the community it comes. I said in answer to the question by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Leith (Mr. Brown) that the work of the security forces must be completed and reinforced by effective political, economic and social policies. The hon. Gentleman spoke about widespread support outside for the phased withdrawal of British troops. I do not think that he would find support for that proposition among those who look at these issues strategically. In reply to the hon. Gentleman's final proposition, I can tell him that the Government have made it clear that they have nothing to say to Sinn Fein while it continues to espouse violence.
Mr. Gow : Is my right hon. Friend aware that the chorus of calls from the Opposition for the withdrawal of soldiers from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland will only give encouragement to the IRA? Will my right hon. Friend explain to the House why, four and a half years after the Anglo-Irish Agreement was signed, he has still not been able to reach an understanding with the Government of the Irish Republic which would give to the
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police and army in the Republic the right to pursue terrorists into the north and a similar right to our security forces to pursue suspected terrorists into the south?Mr. Brooke : I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his initial observations with which I concur. In negotiations conducted under the agreement and within the conference on cross-border security arrangements, there are issues on which we can and have reached agreement with the Government of the Republic about cross-border activity. As I said in answer to an earlier question, we continue to pursue those subjects.
Mr. Hume : Given the knee-jerk and ill-informed reactions which we have again seen in the House today in relation to extradition from the Republic of Ireland, will the Secretary of State make clear the precise difference between the law on extradition in this country and that in the Republic of Ireland?
The right hon. Gentleman has spoken about the killings and the statements of regret by those who support the IRA about some of those killings. Does he recall my statement on 1 January that over the past 20 years 55 per cent. of all the people killed were innocent civilians going about their business and were the victims of so-called mistakes or tit-for-tat killings? The people who carry out that campaign know that one out of every two people that they kill will be an innocent civilian. They should be told that by everybody in the clearest possible terms. There is not a single injustice in the north of Ireland that justifies the taking of single life.
Mr. Brooke : On the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question, he is right to suggest that the legislation in both countries derives from the convention. There are some differences in terms of the precise interpretation placed upon the legislation and that is one reason for the employment of the working group. The hon. Gentleman mentioned tit-for-tat killings. I think that every hon. Member will endorse what he said about that.
Mr. Bellingham : Further to the remarks of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume), does my right hon. Friend agree that we must try to aim for a position in which there is no need for extradition between EEC member states?
Mr. Brooke : My hon. Friend opens an attractive vista. It may be too large to take in at first glance, but I shall return to it.
Mr. Ashdown : Will the Minister confirm, as he told me by letter, that a more extensive use of the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act 1976 may well be applicable? What are the Government doing to put that into effect? Does he agree, as I think that he has also said, that the useful proposals put forward by the Progressive Democrats, the Government coalition partner, on how extradition legislation might be differently applied in the Republic, are helpful and constructive, and that the Government would be better advised to support those proposals than to indulge in another exercise of megaphone diplomacy?
Mr. Brooke : On the right hon. Gentleman's first question, I confirm what I said in correspondence. With regard to the Criminal Law Jurisdiction Act, we consider carefully, on a case-by-case basis, the particular provisions that we might use in every case that we handle in conjunction with the Irish authorities.
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Sir Antony Buck : Does my right hon. Friend agree that the security situation would be infinitely worse if it were not for the supreme professionalism of our armed forces in Northern Ireland, and the professionalism and, in many cases, heroism of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and the Ulster Defence Regiment in Northern Ireland?Mr. Brooke : I warmly welcome my hon. and learned Friend's words. Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom owe a great debt to the security forces for the manner in which the Northern Ireland community has been protected and has been allowed, in so far as has been possible, to live a normal life over the past 20 years.
Mr. McNamara : The Secretary of State will be aware that Her Majesty's Opposition support the use of the Army in Northern Ireland for as long as it is necessary to support the civil power in upholding the rule of law and to see that that is done impartially. Therefore, we should welcome the withdrawal of troops as a signal of an improvement in the situation in Northern Ireland, but until that time arises the Army must be present to support the work of the RUC.
Mr. Brooke : Again, the House will be grateful to the Opposition spokesman for making clear the official Opposition's position on that matter.
Electricity Supply (Rathlin)
5. Miss Hoey : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans there are to provide mainland electricity supply for the island of Rathlin in County Antrim.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Richard Needham) : Northern Ireland Electricity is presently giving active consideration to the matter.
Miss Hoey : I am sure that the Minister will agree that the proud island community of Rathlin has made enormous efforts to preserve its way of life and survival on the island. Does he further agree that there has been much talk, consultation and surveying, but little action to bring mainland electricity supply to Rathlin? When will he recognise that the people of Rathlin island deserve the same amenities and services as those living in the United Kingdom?
Mr. Needham : I have some sympathy with what the hon. Lady says. There has been too much talk and too little action on the matter. NIE has appointed a project manager and within the next couple of months we shall have worked out the best way of getting electricity to the island. We must also consider the capital cost and who will pay for it. We shall try to find ways of spreading the cost as widely as possible to prevent the islanders bearing too large a proportion of it and without making it uneconomic. I am determined to do everything that I can to bring the matter to a conclusion.
Rev. Ian Paisley : Is the Minister aware that there were 1,000 people in Rathlin at the turn of the century but that there are now only 100? Is it his policy to keep people on the island of Rathlin? If so, will he stop setting up projects and take action so that they can have the facilities that they deserve, in the same way as any other part of Northern Ireland?
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Mr. Needham : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his constituency interest in the matter. As I told the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Miss Hoey), of course I want to keep people on the island and to enable them to enjoy the quality of life that is available throughout the rest of Northern Ireland. That is what I am trying to achieve.
Fair Employment
7. Mr. Loyden : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what steps have been taken to implement the Fair Employment (Northern Ireland) Act 1989.
Mr. Needham : The Fair Employment Commission and the Fair Employment Tribunal are both in operation, and encouraging results have been achieved both in the registration of employers and in the provision of their first monitoring returns.
Mr. Loyden : The Minister will be aware that discrimination in employment contributes to division in any community, but particularly in Northern Ireland. In view of the success that has been achieved with registration and monitoring, when will the Minister be able to make his first report to the House?
Mr. Needham : The monitoring phase will be completed in the next couple of months and we shall make the results available as soon as we can. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments. The 1989 Act is in place and is working, and employers and employees are responding to it. I am sure that the atmosphere that it is creating will make it easier for all of us who are working together to attract more investment and jobs to the Province.
Mr. Peter Robinson : Does the Minister realise how important it is that the information given by people to the Fair Employment Commission remains confidential? Was he disturbed to read, as I was, an article by Chris Ryder in a national newspaper saying that he had obtained access to the contents of a confidential investigation report by the Fair Employment Commission? As it is vital that such information is kept confidential, will the Minister order an inquiry, even to the extent of employing the RUC, to ask questions of the person in charge, Mr. Bill Cooper, and of his staff?
Mr. Needham : I agree that if the 1989 Act is to work properly, confidential information must be kept confidential. I shall raise with the commission the matters that the hon. Gentleman has brought to my attention.
Human Rights
8. Mr. Ernie Ross : To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the protection of human rights in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. John Cope) : Human rights are already well protected in Northern Ireland, but we are always willing to consider proposals for strengthening existing safeguards.
Mr. Ross : Will the incorporation of the international convention on human rights in Northern Ireland legislation appear on the agenda of any of the three parallel discussions that the Minister hopes to have in the autumn?
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Mr. Cope : That is possible, but as no agenda have yet been decided, I cannot guarantee that. The European convention on human rights establishes the right of individual petition, and so on, which the Government accept. Most of the rights that it contains are incorporated in our legislation.Mr. Latham : Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the most important human right to be protected in Northern Ireland is the right not to be blown up or murdered by IRA terrorists?
Mr. Cope : I absolutely confirm that. The worst violation of human rights is that done to the victims of terrorists.
Mr. Molyneaux : Given that for the past 18 years Northern Ireland has been governed and administered entirely by Ministers accountable to this House, what is the need for protecting human rights in Belfast as opposed to Birmingham?
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