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Lofthouse, Geoffrey

McAvoy, Thomas

McCartney, Ian

McLeish, Henry

Madden, Max

Mahon, Mrs Alice

Marek, Dr John

Martin, Michael J. (Springburn)

Martlew, Eric

Maxton, John

Meale, Alan

Michael, Alun

Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)

Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling)

Morgan, Rhodri

Morley, Elliot

Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe)

Morris, M (N'hampton S)

Mowlam, Marjorie

Mullin, Chris

Nellist, Dave

O'Brien, William

O'Neill, Martin

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Parry, Robert

Patchett, Terry

Pendry, Tom

Pike, Peter L.

Powell, Ray (Ogmore)

Primarolo, Dawn

Quin, Ms Joyce

Randall, Stuart

Redmond, Martin

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn

Reid, Dr John

Richardson, Jo

Robertson, George

Ruddock, Joan

Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Short, Clare

Skinner, Dennis

Smith, Andrew (Oxford E)

Smith, C. (Isl'ton & F'bury)

Smith, J. P. (Vale of Glam)

Spearing, Nigel

Steinberg, Gerry

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Stott, Roger

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)

Thompson, Jack (Wansbeck)

Turner, Dennis

Wareing, Robert N.

Welsh, Andrew (Angus E)

Welsh, Michael (Doncaster N)

Williams, Rt Hon Alan

Wilson, Brian

Winnick, David

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Worthington, Tony

Wray, Jimmy

Young, David (Bolton SE)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. George Buckley and

Mr. Eric Illsley.

Question accordingly agreed to.

Madam Deputy Speaker : The Question is, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendments.

Several Hon. Members : rose --

Madam Deputy Speaker : On a point of order--Mr. Hardy.

Mr. Hardy : I thought that I was merely intervening.

Madam Deputy Speaker : No, on a point of order, Mr. Hardy.

Mr. Hardy : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. If an hon. Member rises to respond to your suggestion that we debate the proposition that we agree with the Lords in the said amendments, is it appropriate for you to decide that I am making a point of order?

Madam Deputy Speaker : If an hon. Member rises and seeks to catch my eye, I decide whether to bestow my favour on him.

Mr. Hardy : I am exceedingly grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker. I take it that we are dealing with all the Lords amendments in the one debate, but that, at the end of that debate--if it ends--we shall proceed to divide the House on each amendment in turn. I should be grateful if you would clarify that point, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Yes, the procedure is that we debate the amendments en bloc, but any hon. Member may call a Division on any one amendment.

Mr. Hardy : I am most grateful. That means that we are in difficulty, and that the debate may not be as concise and simple to follow at it would have been if we were taking each amendment separately. Inevitably, we shall be jumping from one amendment to another. If that is the rule of the House, hon. Members will have to be more

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patient and accept that the debate will inevitably be more convoluted and complex than if we were debating each amendment separately.

A number of Conservative Members--not least the hon. Member for Brigg and Cleethorpes (Mr. Brown)--may take the view that the amendments are completely trivial, and perhaps rather technical. However, Opposition Members do not accept that they are trivial, and--obviously--we are critical of the proposition that because they are relatively technical the House should not consider them at all. We could not possibly subscribe to such an illogical and unreasonable approach. Each amendment deserves careful scrutiny and detailed consideration.

Mr. Cryer : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Before you were in the Chair I referred to Standing Order No. 186 on private Bills. The Chairman of Ways and Means may require the promoters to set out amendments and to print clauses fully with the amendments in brackets and in bold print to help the House. As the debate is to finish shortly, it would be helpful if you could ask the Chairman of Ways and Means to arrange for that printing to be done. As you have made the point that we are dealing with the first two amendments together--I hope that we shall take the last four amendments separately--it would help the House if there were a requirement under Standing Order No. 186 to produce the information for the House. I hope that you will agree to request the Chairman of Ways and Means to do that.

Madam Deputy Speaker : The Chairman of Ways and Means has made his decision on that matter. He may or may not print the amendments as he wishes. The amendments are by no means substantive.

Clause 3

Interpretation of general enactments

Lords amendment : in page 3, line 10, leave out 85' and insert 85E'.

Mr. Michael Brown : I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

There are two amendments to page 3--

Mr. Hardy : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker : I hope that the hon. Gentleman will come to his point of order this time.

Mr. Cryer : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have answered the hon. Gentleman's point of order. I have a point of order from the hon. Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy).

Mr. Hardy : My point of order follows on from the point of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer). You have decided, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the six amendments should be taken together, even though we shall divide separately on them. That would make for a complex and convoluted debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South has properly pointed out that, although the Chairman of Ways and Means regards the amendments as slight and technical, nevertheless they are sufficiently important to merit the

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attention and attendance of a substantial number of right hon. and hon. Members. In view of that, it is reasonable for my hon. Friend to require a full presentation of the amendments. I see no reason why the amendments should not be specifically spelt out. If one looks at the first amendment--

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I think that I understand the hon. Gentleman's point of order. [Interruption.] Order. I am sure that I am entitled to give the hon. Gentleman an answer. I have answered the points of order. I refer the hon. Gentleman and the House to recent precedents on the Isle of Wight and the International Westminster Bank Bills. All the Lords amendments were taken together. We are following a precedent of the House.

Mr. O'Brien : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not challenging your ruling, but may I ask your guidance on how we are to proceed with the amendments? Do I take it that we shall debate them in the pendulum manner that was outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth (Mr. Hardy), so that we shall move from one amendment to the other, with the whole lot being voted on at the end of the debate? Is it possible to deal with the amendments individually and not consider them in their proper order?

Madam Deputy Speaker : The amendments will be taken en bloc. Hon. Members will debate the amendments collectively. At the end of the debate, any hon. Member who wishes to divide the House on any of the amendments-- and I will go through them individually--will have the opportunity to do so.

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Mr. Skinner : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I did not quite hear everything that you said, for the very good reason that Liberal Democrat Members were discussing why they vote with Conservative Members. The drift of what I heard you say was that precedence suggests that all the amendments should be taken together and then votes taken separately, if required. You used arguments about the Isle of Wight Bill and so on--

It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned .

Debate to be resumed on Thursday next .

Mr. Roy Hattersley (Birmingham, Sparkbrook) : On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the House knows very well that there is a great deal of disquiet in all parts of the House about reports of an explosion in central London. I think he shares my view that it might help the House to progress and help to allay some of the disquiet if he made a brief statement on the subject.

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe) : Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was close to the scene of the explosion a little over an hour ago. The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and I went as close as was judged prudent. We could not get a view of the scene, nor is it possible--I have consulted subsequently my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary--to give any definite information about the scale of the damage, its cause or the number of casualties. I am afraid that I cannot give any more information to the House tonight. Obviously, my right hon. and learned Friend will, in the light of further information as it becomes available, consider whether he should make a statement to the House tomorrow in the usual way.

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