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Rost, Peter

Rowe, Andrew

Rumbold, Mrs Angela

Ryder, Richard

Sackville, Hon Tom

Sainsbury, Hon Tim

Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas

Shaw, David (Dover)

Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)

Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb')

Shelton, Sir William

Shephard, Mrs G. (Norfolk SW)

Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)

Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge)

Shersby, Michael

Sims, Roger

Skeet, Sir Trevor

Smith, Sir Dudley (Warwick)

Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)

Speed, Keith

Speller, Tony

Spicer, Sir Jim (Dorset W)

Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)

Squire, Robin

Stanbrook, Ivor

Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John

Steen, Anthony

Stern, Michael

Stevens, Lewis

Stewart, Allan (Eastwood)

Stewart, Andy (Sherwood)

Stewart, Rt Hon Ian (Herts N)

Stokes, Sir John

Stradling Thomas, Sir John

Sumberg, David

Summerson, Hugo

Tapsell, Sir Peter

Taylor, Ian (Esher)

Taylor, John M (Solihull)

Taylor, Teddy (S'end E)

Temple-Morris, Peter

Thompson, D. (Calder Valley)

Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)

Thornton, Malcolm

Thurnham, Peter

Townsend, Cyril D. (B'heath)

Tracey, Richard

Trippier, David

Trotter, Neville

Twinn, Dr Ian

Vaughan, Sir Gerard

Viggers, Peter

Waddington, Rt Hon David

Wakeham, Rt Hon John

Walden, George

Walker, Bill (T'side North)

Ward, John

Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)

Wells, Bowen

Wheeler, Sir John

Whitney, Ray

Widdecombe, Ann

Wiggin, Jerry

Wilshire, David

Winterton, Mrs Ann

Wolfson, Mark

Woodcock, Dr. Mike

Yeo, Tim

Young, Sir George (Acton)

Tellers for the Noes :

Mr. David Lightbown, and

Mr. Timothy Wood.

Question accordingly negatived.

Lords amendments Nos. 2 to 5 agreed to.

Clause 6

Transfer of staff to NHS trusts

Lords amendment : No. 6, in page 7, line 18, at beginning insert

"Subject to subsection (4A) below"

8.15 pm

The Minister for Health (Mrs. Virginia Bottomley) : I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 7, 45, 46, 91, 136, 137, 139, 140, 150 and 170.

Mrs. Bottomley : The amendments deal with the transfer of staff, both to NHS trusts and from health to local authorities as a consequence of the community care changes in the Bill. The changes relating to the transfer to NHS trusts simply complete the provisions already in clauses 6 and 30. The transfer of staff from health to local authorities, by contrast, is set out in a new clause and in a series of equivalent Scottish amendments. Nevertheless, the same principle unites the amendments--that staff who transfer from one body to another should not lose out in the process. All the amendments provide various protective measures for staff who change employer in those special circumstances. I am sure that the statutory safeguards that they provide will be welcomed by those staff.

Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 and their Scottish equivalents provide statutory protection for staff who

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transfer from health authority to NHS trust employment before a trust's operational date. In particular, they specify that, for such staff, employment with an NHS trust shall be counted as continuous with health authority employment. Such staff will be few--mainly a small group of key staff, such as the new trust chief executive, who need to prepare the trust for carrying out is full range of functions.

The issue addressed by the new clause and the equivalent Scottish amendments was raised by Sir Roy Griffiths in his Report on community care and discussed at some length by the Committee, particularly the hon. Member for Monklands, West (Mr. Clarke). That is the need to ensure that the services of experienced staff employed in long-stay hospitals are not lost when responsibility for their patients passes to another authority. Apart from knowledge of individual patients, such staff have a wide range of skills which are equally valuable in a community setting.

The new clause allows regulations to be made to provide for such staffs' service with the NHS and with local authorities to be counted as continuous. That means that their NHS service will be counted for the purposes of any future redundancy payments or action for unfair dismissal. We have opted for a regulation-making power rather than direct power here, because this is a matter which affects a range of interests--health and local authorities and representatives of NHS staff--with whom we shall discuss the regulations.

Question put and agreed to.

Lords amendment No. 7 agreed to.

Clause 8

Transfer of property, rights and liabilities to NHS trust

Lords amendment : No. 8, in page 9, line 6, leave out from "section" to end of line 7.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Mr. Stephen Dorrell) : I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : With this it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 9 to 13, 20, 47 to 52, 69, 123 to 128 and 146 to 149.

Mr. Dorrell : This group of amendments completes the provisions relating to the financial and other working arrangements for NHS trusts in England and Wales and in Scotland. The amendments build on the financial structure for NHS trusts which was endorsed in Committee and on Report.

The amendments raise four issues. Amendments Nos. 123 to 125 and their Scottish equivalents deal with the funding of NHS trusts before their operational date. They give the Secretary of State power to require health authorities to meet expenses of trusts incurred during this period, in other words before income starts to flow in from NHS contracts. Such expenses are not expected to be substantial, but they will cover key issues such as the pay of a few senior staff who transfer to the NHS trust at an early stage.

Amendments Nos. 10 to 13 and their Scottish equivalents alter the definition of NHS trusts' originating capital debt. They allow all relevant assets to be included in the calculation of the debt. They also allow the Secretary

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of State to leave out certain assets and liabilities from the calculation of the originating capital debt. This will enable the Secretary of State to exclude donated assets, for example, from the calculation. These amendments will ensure that the originating capital debt of NHS trusts reflects the true value of their net assets. They mean that the interest payments on the debt will correspond accurately to the capital charges to be paid by directly managed units, putting all provider units in the NHS on an equal financial footing.

The new clauses introduced by amendments Nos. 20 and 69 allow the Secretary of State to establish schemes for meeting costs of claims for clinical negligence and other liabilities incurred by health authorities, NHS trusts and, in Scotland, health boards and the common services agency. At present, health authorities bear their own risks and do not insure. However, many regions hold back funds for districts to meet the costs of particularly large clinical negligence claims. In Scotland and Wales, pooling arrangements to share the cost of high-value liabilities are operated by the Secretary of State. The Bill as it stands will not allow NHS trusts to participate in any pooling arrangements or other risk-sharing schemes. Trusts would have to meet their own liabilities without the option of spreading the risk. I do not believe that trusts, which will remain fully part of the NHS, should have to meet liabilities on a different basis from health authorities. These clauses will enable NHS trusts to participate alongside other health service bodies in risk-sharing schemes established by the Secretary of State.

Amendment No. 128 gives National Health Service trusts powers to purchase land compulsorily in certain circumstances subject to the Secretary of State's prior consent. Again, this amendment is designed to put National Health Service trusts in an analogous position to health authorities, for which the Secretary of State is able to purchase land under the procedure set out in the Acquisition of Land Act 1981. Compulsory purchase orders made under this new power will be subject to the Secretary of State's confirmation. As an additional safeguard, the amendment specifies that no such order may be made without the Secretary of State's prior consent to the proposed acquisition. These provisions will, I am sure, guarantee that this power is used only exceptionally and when it is in the wider interests of the National Health Service.

The other amendments in this group are all minor, technical amendments, and I do not propose to detain the House by describing them. I commend the amendments that I have described, and the minor ones, to the House.

Question put and agreed to. [ Special Entry. ]

Lords amendments Nos. 9 to 13 agreed to.

Clause 18

Indicative budgets for doctors' practices

Lords amendment : No. 14, in page 18, line 39, leave out "by way of a budget"

Mr. Kenneth Clarke : I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : With this, it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 15 to 19 and 53 to 57.

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