House of Commons Hansard Debates for 2 Jul 1990

Mr. Budgen : Does my hon. Friend agree that the important point about private investment is that it is likely to change the political and economic structure of the recipient country because only by changing will it attract that investment? On the other hand, public investment is more likely to shore up the existing political circumstances and prevent change.

Mr. Tredinnick : I accept my hon. Friend's point, but we must differentiate between different types of aid.

The delegates at the conference also wanted the English language to be the paramount international language in eastern Europe. Anything that we can do to develop and improve the English language in that area will be most welcome. That was particularly evident when I spoke to Czechoslovak delegates. Delegates were also very concerned about the environment. Britain has a great role to play in that respect. If my right hon. Friend the Minister of State were to consider the problem with visas, he could ease the relations between the countries. We visited the embassy in Prague on a Sunday and saw the embassy staff working overtime to process visas for Czechoslovak citizens wishing to come to Britain. We must review our policy towards eastern Europe. The east Germans and the west Germans have dispensed with all visa controls. We must move ahead and consider doing the same.

It has been said this afternoon that there is a strong argument for not throwing money down the well, putting it down the plug hole or throwing it at ancien re gimes. However, the House must differentiate between different types of assistance. An article in The Economist this week

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also suggested that we should not repeat mistakes that were made in the past by providing aid to countries which just wasted it. There is a case for extending the know-how fund, and I shall explain how it should usefully be done. During the conference at Lancaster house, I took great care to spend time with the Russian delegation, because it was the largest from eastern Europe--there were six recently elected Members of Parliament and a member of the Praesidium. Afterwards, I entertained the delegation privately in the evening. I sat next to the Russian ambassador at lunch at the Russian embassy but two weeks ago. It is my conviction that the Russians are anxious to move closer to Britain, and they want to do so for several reasons. First, they still feel a bond between our nations. It pre-dates the 40-year cold war--it goes back to the fact that we were allies in the last war. Secondly, they believe that our nation can deliver reform. Thirdly, they recognise the success of our privatisation ideology.

It is my profound belief that we would be mistaken if we did not extend the know-how fund to the Soviet Union in a specific way. I am not suggesting that all the reforms in the Soviet Union that should take place have taken place, but, when a reformist leadership is under great pressure, the very least that we can do is to offer something so that the Soviet leader can say to the people, "We really have support ; it is tangible." We could give help with desperately needed English lessons--that help would not go into the war machine--and we could help with training in western accountancy methods.

I now refer to the pace of change within the EEC and what should be done about it. In his moving speech, the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) addressed the way in which the EEC is looking at eastern Europe. I agree with him 100 per cent., but I go a little further. Not only should Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary be within the EEC, but it behoves the EEC to move much faster to achieve that end. We have just seen the west Germans mobilise a tremendous effort to effect change in their country. In Poland, the Catholic Church built churches as soon as restrictions were lifted. There have been vast changes in the Soviet Union also. The EEC must move faster. It is no good saying that we must wait three or four years before other applications are processed. We must consider setting up some structures much sooner than that.

I am grateful to hon. Members for listening to my speech. 6.22 pm

Mr. Robert N. Wareing (Liverpool, West Derby) : I am glad that there have been at least one or two mentions of the problems facing Romania. I was a member of the Inter-Parliamentary Union delegation which visited Bucharest, Timisoara and Lipova, and many villages in that country. I was able to confirm what our local government officials had said of Romania. There was also a 75-man delegation from the United States. As far as we could tell, in the circumstances, the election was carried out in a perfectly just way. On 20 May, the people of Romania went to the polls in a spirit of freedom. They argued among themselves about the respective merits of the parties. I was accompanied also by the hon. Member

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for Derbyshire, South (Mrs. Currie), and we were of the opinion that, even if there were procedural problems, there was nothing sinister on election day.

I recognise, of course, that there were certain events in Bucharest when miners--party vigilantes--were brought in, and all hon. Members will deplore that. Someone must tell President Iliescu that democracy does not depend entirely on what happens on election day--there must be a spirit of tolerance. Perhaps some tolerance will be imbued by inviting Romanian Members of Parliament to this country to show them that, although we may slander one another across the Chamber, we can have civilised political debate. There must be a price to pay for the lack of tolerance in Romania.

It would be wrong to exclude Romania from the know-how fund or from any other economic and social assistance that we can give. Anyone who has seen the children's hospital in Timisoara knows of the urgent human needs of the children and the conditions there. The floors of the kitchen are swilling with germ-ridden water. There is an urgent need for assistance.

The Government must act alongside Romanian politicians. We know that 20 May was a great day of hope. We recognised that it was the beginning of Romanian democracy. Romanians have never known democracy, no matter what regime was in power.

Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East) : Will my hon. Friend give way?

Mr. Wareing : I shall not give way as there is insufficient time. I remind the Government that, when they consider human rights as a condition of assistance, they must bear in mind that we do not withhold assistance from Turkey. In the estimates, we find that, even after the events in Tiananmen square, the Yue Yang power station in China will consume £3.5 million this year and £47.9 million in future years. I ask the Government to bear that point fully in mind. Country house seminars are one thing, but they are not all that is available from Britain. We need drive on the part of British business to invest in eastern Europe.

I was chairman of the economic development committee on Merseyside county council. I hope that the Government will not advise the Romanian Government on how to dissolve Bucharest city council as they dissolved the Greater London council. That would not be a lesson in democracy.

Some of our small business men went to the Hanover trade fair. We must use the facilities in Leipzig, Zagreb and other parts of eastern Europe. British business is led by laggards--people more interested in asset stripping than in real investment. That is true in this country and wherever British business features in other parts of the world. We want real drive for real investment, which will not only be to the economic advantage of the United Kingdom but will help to restore the lives of many people in eastern Europe. I ask the Government to act alongside Romanian Ministers and talk to them. Of course there will be conditions, but we should not dissolve all aid.

6.28 pm

Mr. Donald Anderson (Swansea, East) : This debate has been based in part on the valuable report produced by the right hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) and his Select Committee. The debate has been wide-ranging,

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consensual, constructive and informed, as was demonstrated by the speeches by the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick), with his experiences in Czechoslovakia, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing), who pleaded that Romania be not left out of consideration.

As the hon. Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall) has said, the Inter- Parliamentary Union has played a large part in building bridges and in providing facilities for hon. Members to see at first hand the dramatic events taking place in eastern and central Europe. We all welcome those changes, although the dramatic nature of developments has revealed some of the darker aspects of the past on the eastern side of our continent. My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms. Abbott) spoke about that.

Fears have been expressed about the danger that aid to the third world will be sidelined to eastern and central Europe. One sees that trend in the deployment of foreign service personnel, a matter which was mentioned in the Select Committee report. I commend to the Minister the idea of uncoupling aid to eastern and central Europe from the overseas development vote. Perhaps he would consider a separate unit based on the British Council precedent. That would make quite separate the very different areas of the third world and eastern and central Europe. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington said, the third world finds it increasingly difficult to attract private capital. Eastern and central Europe have human and physical infrastructures which make them highly attractive to private capital, some of which is employed in an abrasive and voracious manner.

We must decide how best to respond to the many needs of the eastern part of our continent. There is general recognition that political changes in the past six months must be underpinned by economic changes. That means providing the management and accountancy training which are part of the know-how funds on which the debate has concentrated. The genesis of those funds was in June last year, when the Prime Minister met General Jaruzelski and promised to provide Poland with training and advice on political pluralism and the market economy. Political changes in the rest of the region have extended those concepts.

We broadly welcome what has been done within the ambit of the know-how funds, although we are understandably wary about the Prime Minister's enthusiasm for privatisation, which at times conjures up visions of the Adam Smith Institute careering around eastern Europe organising seminars on the image of Thatcherism or seminars at which Lord Young lectures east Europeans on honesty and transparency in privatisation. Perhaps the Secretary of State for Transport, bless him, could talk about competence in privatisation and how to bring the continental railway system up to the standard of British Rail. The know-how funds are but one part of an overall package of assistance which includes the Development Bank and the Lubbers proposal from the energy committee at the European summit which was pressed by the right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen). It also includes trade--are we prepared to open our markets to products from eastern and central Europe? It includes debt reduction and the range of activities which the hon. Member for Arundel and other hon. Members have set out on behalf of the Inter-Parliamentary Union.

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We acknowledge the way the Government have worked in concert with the advisory body. The Minister said that the Government had learnt from their mistakes in the early operation of the know-how funds. It would be interesting to hear about those mistakes, because the projects which have come forward since that admission by the Minister seem strikingly similar to those which came forward in the first part of the operation.

There are reservations about the implementation of the funds. One concerns the degree of co-ordination and who directs it. Will it be done by the group of 24 or by the European Community? Such co-ordination is necessary if we are to avoid stumbling over one another in the desire to help eastern and central Europe. Questions have been asked about amounts of money. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that about £2 million of the total pledged at the end of May has been disbursed. In the context of the debt and the need, that is small beer.

Some hon. Members have asked about the narrow profile of democracy and multi-party politics that the Government have adopted--a point in relation to Professor Dahrendorf and his social society. There is a need for intermediate bodies because democracy involves diversity and not just bankers and accountants flocking to eastern Europe. Will the Minister say at what point he thinks that East Germany, after yesterday's economic and commercial union with greater Germany, will no longer be able to benefit from the know-how funds? Perhaps he will also talk about the relationship of the funds, if any, to the Soviet Union's enormous needs. That has been mentioned by several hon. Members.

As funds are limited, have the Government considered the know-how funds as pump primers? Companies which will benefit could surely make a contribution to enable Government funds to go that much further. How much liaison is there with business? A major British company to which I spoke says it thinks that the Government have been insufficiently commercial. Perhaps in terms of distribution Britain has had the short end of the stick in that we have been assigned financial expertise, the benefit of the City, while other countries have been assigned areas in which commerce is more evident. I hope that the Minister will confirm that we have not been short changed. The Minister will be aware of the criticism contained in a recent article in The Times. It suggested that France has been more successful in setting up institutions for teaching banking in Poland, whereas the seminars that we have promoted have been of much less benefit. Tourism has many benefits, not only because it employs many people but because it will earn foreign exchange. Yet know-how funds have been directed to only one small tourist project in Cracow. The Minister should look at the claims of tourism.

The Opposition welcome the scheme as far as it goes. It is but a small part of a panoply of measures which seek to cope with the changes in eastern and central Europe. Those changes are wholly unprecedented and are turning a command economy into one in which the market will have a place, albeit in a social context. We are ready to co-operate with the Government but, as I have said, we shall be wary of any attempt to mould eastern and central Europe in the image of Thatcherism. We are reassured by the fact that the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the right hon. Member for Bristol,

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West (Mr. Waldegrave), is in charge of the programme, making it less likely that a narrow ideological vision will prevail. We stress the need for flexibility. The Government should not take the view that all the countries in eastern and central Europe have the same problems. They should pay attention to each of the countries and policy should be subject to constant review. When there is a change of Government, we shall try to ensure that the right hon. Member for Bristol, West remains a member of the advisory committee. In working with the Government on the matter, our objective is to target aid and assistance as well as possible and to improve its scope.

With all the reservations that I have mentioned, we give a broad blessing to the know-how funds.

6.40 pm

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. William Waldegrave) : I am grateful to the hon. Member for Swansea, East (MrAnderson), although I am not at all grateful to him for his unfortunate remarks about me personally at the end of his otherwise admirable speech. On a more serious note, I greatly welcome the tone of what he said.

The introduction to the debate by the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell), was exemplary, as was the Committee's report, which was extremely useful to us on a number of counts. I wish that I could say the same for the speech of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd), which was mildly deplorable. To mock her colleagues and ours for going to find out about the eastern European countries seemed sad. To say that one must listen to the people on the ground but not go to the countries seemed odd. She then spent several billions of pounds and we look for the normal rebuttal from the right hon. and learned Member for Monklands, East (Mr. Smith) tomorrow. We have had a good debate with speeches from hon. Members on both sides of the House. The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms. Abbott) made a good speech. My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Sir M. Marshall) brought us back to sense. We now have the task of helping the east European countries. We must not impose anything on them. If they are interested in privatisation, it is not because we have sought to impose it on them but because they want to diversify and pluralise their economies. The demand comes from them. They look to us because they have seen us undertake a much smaller but similar task.

The east European countries do not look to us only on economic matters. The hon. Member for Swansea, East said that, as did the hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn and Lochaber (Sir R. Johnston). The institutional help that we can give to such countries is greatly valued by them. They have come to us to ask for help in setting up non-political civil services, local administrations and police forces. The industrial and commercial aspect of the debate is vital, but it is not the only aspect. The know-how funds were not set up solely as a commercial and industrial support operation. I hope that we shall use them, fairly, as much as we can in the interests of this country to bring business here. The problems posed by the moral and institutional

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wastelands left by the communists, as well as the environmental wastelands referred to by several hon. Members and the commercial and financial wastelands, are a much more difficult aspect.

The right hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dr. Owen) made a powerful speech. I agree with him that we must be absolutely clear that if the eastern European countries manage to put their economies and their institutions into free and democratic shape, the Community will welcome them. I take a slightly more pessimistic view than him about the time scale in which that might be possible.

When we compare the transition to democracy in the eastern European countries with that which took place in Spain, it is clear that, although the political rebuilding when a country escapes from communism is similar to that when it escapes from fascism, the economic rebuilding is more difficult. Some elements of a free economy existed under fascism in Spain and Portugal which greatly speeded their transition. That has turned out to be a fact. The relationship of the eastern European countries with the Community is vital. Opposition Members are mesmerised by the Prime Minister and bring her into their speeches frequently. It is extraordinary how easy I find it not to mention the Leader of the Opposition in my speeches. The Prime Minister is leading the battle, with help from Holland, Germany and other countries, for an open trading system and a liberal trading Community. That is far more important to the interests of the eastern European countries than anything else that we could do. It has turned out that Lenin's old joke about the capitalists selling the communists the rope with which to hang themselves was wrong in every respect. First, they managed to strangle themselves with the rope and then they did not pay for it. I noticed the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Campbell-Savours) nod from a sedentary position during the debate when the concept of differentiation was mentioned. It seems absolutely right that there should be differentiation in the jargon. We should try to relate our support to the development of the institutions which the reformers whom we supported in the years of communism sought to build. Those reformers urged differentiation on us. We have not thought it up for ourselves. That is why there is hesitation about giving aid to the Soviet Union, and it is right that there should be. We do not say that we should never offer support, but we should offer support that helps the transition to new institutions and does not simply undermine the forces that are pressing for change. If we simply pay to put consumer goods on the shelves for a year or two, we shall have done nothing to help produce more consumer goods in the long term. We are not saying no. We are saying yes. In the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford, if we can be assured that the analysis has been done and that the money that we put in will help the transition, we shall consider it seriously.

I have referred to the European Community, which has a crucial role to play both as an ultimate target for the eastern European countries and in the meantime in our association agreements to provide markets in which the liberalising economies can sell their goods. Other multinational and multilateral organisations are vital. First, there is the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, which we shall welcome to London with its French chairman. We agree with the Select Committee's

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recommendaton that the EBRD should be paid out of the Overseas Development Agency eastern European support line and not out of the multilateral organisations line.

The EBRD will be one of the key institutions. Conditionality will work with it in relation to the Soviet Union at least at the beginning. That has been made clear by its founding members and it is right. It is vital to achieve international co-ordination on the broad thrust of the work of the group of 24. That work is being done for the first time in a wide forum by the Commission of the European Community. That is a considerable step in showing how central the EC is to all the changes taking place. Commissioner Andriessen has done extremely well in the work that he has undertaken.

The hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Wareing) made a good short speech about Romania. I agree with him that we should not cut off contacts with the Romanians. On the contrary, we should show them what we mean by democracy, which we criticise them for not yet having established. Before it becomes established as part of the folklore, I emphasise that Conor Cruise O'Brien was wrong to say that I said that President Iliescu was indistinguishable from Ceausescu. I carefully did not say that. I said that it was depressing that some of the methods used were exactly those used by Ceausescu and that that shook us, but we still asked our ambassador to go to the inauguration to show that we recognise the enormous step forward that has been taken by holding an election.

We do not believe that Romania yet meets the criteria for the know-how funds. We hope that we have sent a sharp signal by not inviting it to the first group of 24 meeting. We hope that that shock produces results. We do not want to push Romania out. We hope that the shock will encourage Romania to do things that will enable us to bring it in. I hope that both sides of the House agree with that.

Mr. Harry Barnes : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Waldegrave : We had 40 minutes of speeches from the Opposition Front Bench during my right hon. Friend's debate, so I cannot give way if other hon. Members wish me to comment on their speeches. I am in the hon. Gentleman's hands.

There has been a major operation in the multilateral forums, with the Community at its centre, to respond to events in eastern Europe. As the right hon. Member for Devonport said, the security aspects of changes in eastern Europe are far more important than much of what we laboured to negotiate in the Vienna arms control negotiations, important though those negotiations were. If we have a group of free, democratic, economically successful countries at the centre of Europe, it will do far more for our security than any negotiations about a few hundred aircraft or tanks. That is why events at the NATO summit this week are crucial. The multilateral security negotiations are not irrelevant to the debate.

I now come to what we have tried to do bilaterally. First, there are the know-how funds. It was unfair of the hon. Member for Cynon Valley to quote from The Economist only the critical remarks. She quoted the following passage :

"The most stinging complaint is simple : for expertise read fripperies."

In fact, The Economist set out the criticisms and then knocked them down. Unfortunately, the hon. Lady did

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not quote the knocking-down passages. Her research assistant was either idle or unfair. I shall right the balance by quoting the final paragraph of the article. It reads :

"Many of the business men who have brushed with the fund have been impressed. They agree with its view that eastern Europe needs know-how even more than cash, and they generally endorse the fund's decision to make aid conditional upon countries holding free elections and introducing free markets."

The hon. Lady may not like the following passage :

"Why not extend the good idea, several have asked, and apply the same conditions to debt-ridden dirigiste countries in the third world?"

I shall reply to Mr. Boyes, who I do not consider to be one of the leading commentators on these matters, with the opinion of the man who, along with Timothy Garton Ash, is the best writer on eastern Europe--Neal Ascherson. On Sunday 3 June, Mr. Ascherson wrote--I commend hon. Members and the hon. Lady's research assistant to read the article--

"The know-how fund, aware of this, warns its experts not to be too British in their approach. It is a limitation but no other western country anxious to assist infant democracies in eastern Europe has produced anything half so adaptable. Here is the starving man. There is the pig. The British response is to offer him neither a pistol nor a tub of apple sauce but a cooking pot."

I like it.

Mr. Sedgemore rose --

Mr. Waldegrave : The hon. Member has spoken already at enormous length and has delighted us all with a range of sedentary interjections throughout the afternoon.

Mr. Sedgemore : If the know-how fund is beyond criticism, as the Minister is saying, why are staff in the embassies in eastern Europe criticising it so severely?

Mr. Waldegrave : I accept that the know-how fund is not beyond criticism. Indeed, I am about to make some criticisms of it. The hon. Gentleman has produced another example of how he does not facilitate our debates. During the last financial year we spent about £2.5 million on the fund. We were spending money as we were setting up the organisation. I am well aware of the justified criticism that was made--the customer is not always wrong--that it was not always easy to learn how to contact the fund and to ascertain the criteria. Those difficulties arose because we were setting the criteria as we went along. I am willing to believe--this may be astonishing to some--that the fund is not perfect yet. However, it is becoming very much better by the day and more and more satisfied customers are writing to tell me that. As the hon. Member for Swansea, East said, it is in the interests of both sides of the House and of the country generally that we get the fund right. We shall listen to criticism and try to put things in order. The structure of the fund has become considerably better. That is why people like Neil Ascherson write as they do.

The hon. Member for Cynon Valley criticises Ministers for visiting eastern Europe. I shall rebut her argument. One of the purposes of the know-how fund is to involve every Whitehall Department in using British expertise in the round. It should not be the Foreign Office alone that is involved. In some ways the know-how fund is unique. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has been to each of the countries that are involved with the know-how fund. We have the skills for which they asked and they have been deployed by officials of the Department. The three countries wanted to know

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how to set up small businesses and how to diversify from collapsing major capital-intensive industries into new industries. I pay tribute to my right hon. and learned Friend and his Department for taking on new work and performing extremely well.

The same comments can be made about agriculture. It is necessary for contacts to be made at ministerial level. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has visited several countries. In Poland, for example, there is a scheme worth £50 million which will meet exactly the purpose for which the Poles asked. They want small productive businesses effectively to distribute the food that at present never reaches the shops. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and a team of Department officials have helped, as they were asked, to advise and assist on and with local government administration. That is another example of sensible assistance. Other schemes have focused on police training in Poland and environmental matters. Some of these activities have been almost too big for the know-how fund. The fund, with British utilities, has been undertaking some work, but the big capital spending must come from multilateral organisations such as the World bank and others. We are doing a little where we are requested to intervene.

Mr. Campbell-Savours : Are any discussions taking place with Soviet authorities about the transfer of agriculture technology and managerial expertise to improve distribution in the Soviet Union? Would not that be a major contribution to resolving the distribution problems of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Waldegrave : Those who want us to rush at the Soviet Union should understand that that country has not yet asked for anything. It might be polite to wait until it does. If we were to get involved, I would have a personal bias in favour of exactly what the hon. Gentleman suggests. Some of the elements are already in place. For example, ICI has been working for the Soviet Union to try to help that country to develop agriculture, especially in distribution and retailing. I can imagine that a sectoral project would be attractive. I am speaking personally and far ahead of any analysis. I am sure that note will be taken of the hon. Gentleman's suggestion. I note the views of the Select Committee, whose Chairman is my right hon. Friend the Member for Guildford, on the range of projects that should be supported by the fund and on the range of organisations and individuals that should be consulted. The point is well taken. There is no shortage of proposals, and that is partly why we are attracting some criticism. When individuals are turned down, they sometimes write to their Members of Parliament to tell them that it is scandalous that certain projects have been rejected. That is not an unknown phenomenon when dealing with aid. We should do better with our publicity, and any criticism of it is valid. We are trying to bring some thought to bear on improving it. We wish to make it easier for those who have never had any experience of eastern Europe or of aid products to get in touch with the know-how fund. I note with interest the suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel that a general stocktaking seminar should take place in due course--perhaps after six months,

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for example--to be attended by a range of the organisations involved so as to ascertain whether there is adequate co- ordination. That might be a job for the Great Britain-East Europe Centre, which is so ably chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Mr. Forman). The speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton was succinct and right on the ball. The same can be said of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (Mr. Tredinnick), who referred to the problem of visas.

The bilateral programme--I have referred already to multilateral agencies-- starts with the know-how fund and then moves on to a difficult job that will take years to complete, which is to shift the general diplomacy of the United Kingdom so that it occupies a rather more eastern-Europe-oriented stance. I think that the Foreign Office has done well already. It has found 60 new London-based or locally engaged staff. That is not a bad record in such a short time. It is not easy to transfer that number of staff so quickly. We are looking for 37 more staff by the end of 1992. At a time of necessary expenditure constraints, we are having to impose some strains elsewhere. Surely it is right to shift these people. As I have said, the Foreign Office is moving.

Mr. Anderson : Will the Minister give way?

Mr. Waldegrave : No. I have only three more minutes in which to bring my reply to an end.

We shall ask the British Council to undertake a good deal more, I am certain, on the English language front. I cannot say more than that now. Negotiations and discussions are taking place. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, we should respond, with Canada and the United States, to the explicit desire of the countries in question to replace Russian as their second language with English. We shall not do it all ourselves but we must make a contribution. We are doing so already with specific projects through the know-how fund. These projects are aimed at providing English language training for those whom the know-how fund wishes to involve.

The British Council should take the full weight of the major expansion, and that is something that we shall have to consider in future.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth and the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs said, visas will represent another change in the relations of British institutions and British Ministries with eastern Europe. Like other hon. Members, I am all too conscious of the continuing strain that is put on our relations with eastern European countries because of the pressures that are brought to bear by the application for and granting of visas. We shall do what we can to simplify and to provide a quicker service, but we must examine each country individually and judge separately the case for each country to determine whether, at the right time, we can abolish visas entirely or in part. That would be much the best way of dealing with the problem in general. We must look carefully at the interests of our country before we do so.

Our bilateral help is additional to and separate from the United Kingdom's overseas aid budget for developing countries. The hon. Member for Swansea, East asked that such aid should be treated separately. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development has already said that that aid is a separate item in the ODA budget. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman welcomed that.

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The hon. Member for Cynon Valley was right in saying that there is anxiety in the third world about the fact that private capital may go to eastern Europe, but there is nothing that she or I can do about that. The only people who can do anything are those responsible for financial policies in third-world countries who will now have to compete against Europe.

It being Seven o'clock, Mr. Deputy Speaker-- interrupted the proceedings, pursuant to paragraph. (3) of Standing Order No. 52 (Consideration of Estimates).

Clyde Port Authority Bill

Order for Third Reading read.

7 pm

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I seek your assistance as I am given to understand that when the Bill was scrutinised by the Committee on Unopposed Bills, counsel for the Clyde port authority mentioned amendments that were to be made to the Bill in another place. If the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) were to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, would I be in order to ask him to outline the proposed amendments apparently to be made in another place?

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Harold Walker) : I can neither anticipate nor comment on what might happen in another place. Tonight we are debating Third Reading and I hope that the House will stick to the normal confines of that debate and comment on what is in the Bill.

Mr. Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) : On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Are you aware that the Government have introduced a Command document, "Private Bills and New Procedures"? It is a consultation document, dealing with the private Bill procedure. Are you further aware that, tonight, we shall be discussing a Ways and Means resolution dealing with the levy on port privatisations, which directly affects the Bill now before the House?

I do not wish to detain the House, but given that the Government are about to change the rules and regulations by which we debate private Bills and that there is a money resolution before us that deals with the Bill, has any representation been made to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to defer the Bill pending the completion of the Government's consultation? Given that this Bill is truncated and that it will be followed by a Ways and Means resolution dealing with the same Bill, is not the Bill hybrid? Surely we should seek your protection.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : My answer to the hon. Gentleman is yes and no. Yes, I am aware of the document to which he refers, but the House has yet to debate it and make decisions on it. It will be for the House to decide on any changes that may be made to the private Bill procedure. At the moment we are dealing with the procedure as it is. No representation has been made to me about the hybridity of the Bill.

The Ways and Means resolution does not deal specifically with the Bill, but is of a general nature. When we get to it the hon. Gentleman may seek to catch my eye and comment upon this Bill. He cannot do it the other way round--he cannot anticipate what the House may debate and decide later.

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Mr. Martin Redmond (Don Valley) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You will recollect that we raised the question about the Bill's hybridity on a previous occasion, but tonight I am seeking your guidance on the Government's involvement in the Bill. It is supposed to be a private Bill and the Government should not be seeking to interfere. I find it rather strange, therefore, that yet again the Government have sought to ensure that a three-line Whip operates after the debate on the Bill. That ensures that they have sufficient troops--

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Order. That has nothing to do with the Chair.

Mr. Redmond : In view of the obvious Government involvement and further to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Mr. Bell), would not it be correct to suspend the private business until the report on private Bill procedures has been debated? That would ensure that we had a sensible and sane method of dealing with private business.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : That is not a matter for me.

Mr. Bell : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I omitted to mention in my first point of order that when I asked the Lord President of the Council on Thursday whether we could have an early debate on the document dealing with private Bills, he said that there would be no such debate. That is why I sought your protection, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as you are the only one who can protect us from debating a Bill, the basis of which will be subsequently changed by the Government.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : The Bill before the House will be dealt with by the procedures as contained in appropriate Standing Orders. The question of future changes does not have any bearing on our proceedings.

Mr. Tony Worthington (Clydebank and Milngavie) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. We are faced with a strange situation because the Bill that we are to debate will not be anywhere near the Bill that will be enacted, given that I understand that the counsel for the promoters and the sponsor said that the Bill would not be competent unless particular amendments were made. The promoters have given an undertaking that that will be put right in the House of Lords, but that means that we shall not have the opportunity to debate the Bill in the form intended by its promoters and sponsor.

The Government have said that the Bill is private, but they have said that amendments will be made to the Finance Bill to deal with 50 per cent. of the proceeds of the sale of the Clyde port authority. The Bill that we shall discuss tonight is not that which will be enacted. Is that in order?

Mr. Deputy Speaker : It is not unusual for public or private Bills to go to another place and be amended. If that happens--the hon. Gentleman seems to have more information than me--those amendments will return to the House so that it will have an opportunity to comment on them. It might make sense if we allowed the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), who is in charge of the Bill, to address the House as he might be able to throw some light on these matters.

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Mr. Frank Haynes (Ashfield) : Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You are the Chairman of Ways and Means and we all respect that position.

Mr. Deputy Speaker : Few ways and little means.

Mr. Haynes : In reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington), you said that you did not know what was going on, but we do. Not many moments ago a broadcast was made about the Bill-- the Government have struck a deal on this private Bill. You are the Chairman of Ways and Means, but you obviously do not know what is going on.

Mr. Deputy Speaker indicated assent.

Mr. Haynes : I note that you are in total agreement with me, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You are not in the picture and you must be told. The Government are pulling a fast one. The Government have whipped in a payroll vote because of the deal that has been struck. We Back Benchers need protection because that sort of thing goes on far too often. I do not represent Scotland, but I am interested in the Bill because of the unfair way in which the Government have acted. You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, must take due note of what is going on and I am looking for some action from you. I respect your position and I support you in the many things that you do, but I hope that you will give Back Benchers support now because of the Government's fiddle on the Bill.

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