House of Commons Hansard Debates for 2 Jul 1990

Dr. Godman : Yes, indeed. I have seen the facilities. Not long ago, I talked to Phil Cannie and the other ex-dockers who have formed the company which rents the terminal from the CPA. I urged on them a workers' co-operative, but they settled for a private company. I am concerned that the Clyde port authority will be regarded as a juicy financial morsel by some predator company that has no commitment to Scotland, let alone to the Clyde and the Firth of Clyde.

I am being an awkward customer with this Bill because of my constituency and Clyde-wide interests. In addition to the container terminal, the James Watt dock is in my constituency. Vessels that carry raw cane sugar from the African Caribbean and Pacific cane sugar producing countries are unloaded. There are only two such refineries left in the United Kingdom now--one on the Thames in London and one on the lower Clyde. About 300 of my constituents work in the Tate and Lyle cane sugar refinery. Apart from providing work for constituents, the House of Commons should honour its obligation, under the Lome sugar protocol, to impoverished countries which produce

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that crop. In addition, in my constituency there is a ship repair firm which, I am pleased to say, employs 80 men. Its managing director, Mr. Sinclair, wrote to me the other day after he saw my interview with Miss Margo McDonald on Scottish Television. He expressed his serious concern for the future of the James Watt complex.

Mr. Graham : My hon. Friend will be aware also that constituents who work in the Caledonian MacBrayne shipping company are concerned about what is happening on the Clyde.

Dr. Godman : They are indeed. That concern extends along the river and the Firth. Many of those who work around the constituencies of Greenock, Port Glasgow, Inverclyde and Renfrew have some trust in the CPA as it is currently formed, but they are deeply worried about the future ownership of the Clyde port authority and where its head office will be located in 10 years time. If it is to be located in Robertson street in Glasgow and the container terminal is still to receive investment from the Clyde port authority, I shall be a much happier man. However, I have my doubts about the implications for my constituents and many other people and, as one who is directly affected by the Bill, despite the hon. Gentleman's assurances, I shall urge hon. Members to vote against the Bill.

8.45 pm

The Minister for Aviation and Shipping (Mr. Patrick McLoughlin) : It might be convenient if I said a few words about the Government's position on the Bill. On Second Reading on 14 May I clearly stated the Government's position.

Mr. Wilson : The slight bombshell that the Minister dropped on Second Reading was the fact that the Treasury is to run off with 50 per cent. of the slack and that that would apply to all port privatisations. A report in Lloyd's List last week suggests that, under an amendment to the Finance Bill, the Treasury would not only take 50 per cent. but would then impose a corporation tax of 35 per cent. on the remaining 50 per cent., and that there would then be a further cascading of corporation tax, which could mean that the Government could claw back a still greater proportion of the total revenue. I understand that amendments to the Finance Bill have been reintroduced. As the matter is of substantial significance to any port authority that is thinking of privatising itself, will the Minister clarify the Government's position? If he cannot do so tonight, will he write to me?

Mr. McLoughlin : The position remains as I stated it on Second Reading. As, in the past, the Government put various moneys into trust boards, it is felt right that a proportion should go to the Government. On the hon. Gentleman's specific point, it would be better if I looked again at the report in Lloyd's List and wrote to him with further clarification. That issue will be debated later this evening and when the Finance Bill returns to the House. That may be the best time to clarify the Government's position.

The Bill has come back to the House without any amendments. It has my support, so I hope that it has the support of all hon. Members.

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8.47 pm

Mr. Jim Sillars (Glasgow, Govan) : The hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) will correct me if I am wrong about the structure of the new authority and holding company. As I understand it, the successor company will be the functional arm of the holding company carrying out the functions of a port authority. The holding company will be the entrepreneurial, bustling, dynamic business organisation that will capitalise upon assets that are currently held by the Clyde port authority. Hon. Members cannot object to joint ventures between public authorities and private capital to develop ports in Glasgow or in any other part of Scotland. The Scottish Development Agency has engaged in that practice, Glasgow district council has encouraged it, and Strathclyde regional council also encourages it.

However, I fail to understand why we do not have a Bill to extend the powers of the present Clyde port authority to engage in joint ventures with private enterprise partners, and why it is necessary to go all the way to a private shareholding company, which is the holding company. For the life of me I cannot accept that someone has his eye on the massive asset stripping of the Clyde port authority's substantial holdings. The Clyde will by no means be a dead river, and certainly not on the banks where there is considerable development. Some people have great visions of capitalising on the assets on the north and south banks of the river. I share the anxieties of Opposition Members about the preparations that are taking place for massive asset stripping.

I have registered my concern about dredging. I do not think that the hon. Member for Eastwood was trying to mislead us when he said that there was no obligation on the successor company to dredge the Clyde. Clause 4 says that there will be transferred from the present port authority to the successor company

"all the property (whether heritable or moveable) of the Port Authority, and to all rights liabilities and obligations of the Port Authority".

What is the obligation if it is not dredging? The explanatory statement from the Bill's promoters suggests that the obligation rests upon the general duty of the port authority, expressed in section 13 of the 1965 Act, to take such steps from time to time as it may consider necessary for the maintenance or improvement of the port and the accommodation and facilities afforded therein or in connection therewith.

The crucial term in that obligation is not "general duty" but "port". What will be the future legal definition of a port? Not long ago such a definition would have been easy on the Clyde because from almost one end to the other it was a series of ports and it could have been said that the whole of the Clyde was a single port. However, that will not necessarily be the case in future because there has been a devastating reduction in commercial and industrial activity on the Clyde. I do not doubt that a container terminal would still be defined as a port and the same definition could be applied to the James Watt dock. But could the definition of a port be applied to the Kvaerner shipyard in Govan? It is a separate undertaking and a private enterprise company. It certainly relies upon the river, but it could not be argued that it relies upon a port.

I am worried about what may happen if we become involved in litigation. Clause 5 makes it ultra vires for the successor company to act beyond not the responsibilities or obligations of the Clyde port authority, but the present

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power of that authority. It does not impose any responsibilities or obligations. We are talking about the holding company being transferred to shareholders who are concerned solely with maximising profit irrespective of the effects of any of their policies on the Clyde or its immediate environs in Glasgow or the Greenock area. Some people and organisations would protest if it was decided to stop dredging the Clyde. If the matter went to court, there would be no point in quoting the words in Hansard of the hon. Member for Eastwood because it is a rule of the courts in Scotland and England that Hansard cannot be used as guidance to the meaning of an Act.

Dr. Godman : Some of my constituents genuinely believe that the Clyde port authority does not own waterfront properties in Greenock. They argue their case on the basis of a few contracts signed in 1772 in Edinburgh, which gave to the people of Greenock in perpetuity that area of the waterfront.

Mr. Sillars : I foresee litigation arising and it will make the Court of Session interesting. [Interruption.] If the Bill becomes an Act and a case comes to the Court of Session, the judges will be compelled to interpret the Act. The hon. Member for Eastwood says that he expects the Clyde port authority to continue dredging. He should look again at the explanatory memorandum. It says that the successor company would succeed to the property rights and liabilities of the port authority. Clause 5 is about power only and has nothing to do with rights and liabilities, and it is arguable whether dredging is a legal, contractual liability on the Clyde port authority. If the hon. Gentleman says that it is not an obligation, it lies somewhere in the realm of ambiguity. If a case went to the Court of Session, the judge would say that if Parliament meant the authority to have a specific obligation, it would have written it into the Act. If Parliament does not do that, the matter will be debatable and a judge could well come down against the argument that the authority has a responsibility, a liability and an obligation.

Mr. Allan Stewart : I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument with interest. The duties and powers of the authority are laid down in section 13(3) of the 1965 Act and the successor company takes over those duties and powers.

Mr. Sillars : The authority has the power to dredge the Clyde but, as the hon. Gentleman says, it does not have a legal obligation to do so. If we went to the Court of Session to try to stop the authority dredging the Clyde, it would win the case because it has the power. However, if we went to the Court of Session to make it dredge the Clyde, we should be engaged in an entirely different legal argument.

Mr. Bill Walker : In order to help us follow the hon. Gentleman's line of argument, can he tell us of any other river in the United Kingdom where an authority or a private company has a statutory obligation to dredge the river?

Mr. Sillars : I do not know of any cases that have been tested in the Court of Session and that is what worries me. We have a responsibility to make sure that legislation is absolutely clear and that liabilities and responsibilities are clearly defined in the Act.

Mr. Worthington : All dredging operations in the former inner harbour on the Clyde between Victoria and Glasgow

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bridges ceased about a quarter of a century ago. I assume that at some stage that was defined as part of the port, that it is no longer so defined and that if it is possible for the port authority to walk away from the inner harbour, it is possible for it to walk away from anywhere.

Mr. Sillars : I am worried that it is possible for the authority to walk away from the part of the Clyde that serves the important shipyard of Kvaerner and its substantial work force. For the life of me, I cannot understand why those who are arguing for the Bill are not prepared to say that they would advise the promoters, when the Bill goes to the other place, to remove any doubt whatever about the obligations of the successor company.

Having registered my anxiety on that matter, my final point is about the public benefit. I accept that the chairman cannot get free shares and that the hon. Member for Eastwood told us that free shares will be available to the employees. I have never understood the logic of that. I could never understand why, if one happens to be lucky enough to work for the gas board or the Clyde port authority at a certain time, one receives a bonus benefit, whereas if one is unlucky enough because of the labour market not to work for such a company one is denied that benefit. Also someone who worked for such a company but who has left or retired is denied that benefit. I am worried that the local authorities will not benefit from the privatisation. The local authorities should have what is known in the oil industry as a carried interest, a set number of shares in a company that would become revenue earning. My argument is that if there are developments along the banks of the Clyde both north and south, such as housing and various other developments, the local authorities will be called on to provide a range of services that will add to their financial burden. Therefore, if anyone is to be cut in on free shares, there is a clear case for giving them to local authorities up and down the Clyde. At least in that way they would get something out of the asset stripping of public assets that I fear is inherent in the Bill.

Like the hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow, I hope that there will be amendments in another place to tighten the Bill and produce a better balance in the public interest. That balance in the public interest is missing, so I shall join others in the Lobby in voting against Third Reading.

9 pm

Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries) : I shall make only a brief speech. For the life of me, I cannot understand why the hon. Members for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Sillars) and for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman) get so worked up about dredging. Of course, dredging is important. That is why the Labour Government in 1969 wrote into the legislation that the Clyde port authority had a duty--I emphasise duty--to take such steps as from time to time

"they may consider necessary for the maintenance or improvement of the Port".

One cannot run a port unless from time to time dredging, if it is necessary, is carried out. That duty is carried over from the 1965 legislation into the Bill. Hon. Gentlemen are trying to race a hare that is a non-runner. The powers in the Bill are exactly the same as those in the current legislation. If dredging is required, the authority will have the right to carry it out.

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The attitude of Opposition Members is disappointing. They believe that to continue as we are will help the Clyde port authority to run an efficient port. It is obvious that times have changed dramatically since 1965 and the port needs a great deal of support to go into new ventures to maintain its income with which to enhance the port and the community that it represents. One needs only to consider the market decline in trade on the west coast and the move towards the east coast, the restrictive powers in the Act and the way in which heavy engineering has disappeared. The hon. Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow knows better than anyone how things have changed in his constituency and that the Clyde port authority must find new ways of developing the port.

New technology that has come into the west of Scotland does not require the same type of shipping as heavy engineering did years ago. We have also lost the oil shipments from the middle east because of north sea oil, which is welcome. Also imports of grain previously came into the west coast of Scotland from Canada and the United States, not only for whisky distilling but for agriculture. Cereals were imported for feedstuffs. Containerisation has moved to the south and east of the United Kingdom rather than develop on the west coast.

In simple terms, the authority is asking us to give it much greater flexibility to give it the powers to develop the port in the way that it feels necessary. It has had general support from a wide range of people who know what they are talking about. The main opposition to the Bill has come from Opposition Members who seem determined to prevent the port from developing and to drift on into stagnation.

Mr. Sillars : I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has listened to what Opposition Members have said. We recognise the potential benefits of a joint venture and we have argued that it should take place, but why is it necessary to have a wholly privatised Clyde port holding company? Why cannot the present authority have its powers extended so that it can go into a joint venture? What would be wrong with that? That would comply with the development of the Clyde, and we are all in favour of that.

Sir Hector Monro : If obtaining finance and venture capital were as simple as the hon. Gentleman seems to think, no doubt the port authority would have gone down that road. In fact, the authority needs wider powers to deal with what it thinks is the best way forward in developing the Clyde.

I am not sure whether Opposition Members have mentioned responsibilities for lights, buoys and recreation facilities. I am sure that many of us have sailed on the Clyde. In war time, I operated upon it and came to know it reasonably well. There is still a great future for developing recreation on the Clyde, but the port authority needs additional powers. There is the need also to remove any questions of doubt, and that the authority has raised with us from time to time.

The hon. Member for Govan has referred to the narrow issue of venture capital. It would be a pity to lose the opportunity that is presented by a much wider approach to the development of the Clyde because of the opposition of Opposition Members. The port authority has given close

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attention to the possibilities and opportunities that are available to it and it will proceed with confidence, provided that the Bill is passed, to develop the Clyde in the best interests of Scotland as a whole but particularly of the west coast and the Firth of Clyde.

Mr. Allan Stewart : Is it not also relevant to the argument that my hon. Friend is advancing that the board of the port authority, which was unanimous in bringing forward the proposals, includes the former councillor, Lawrence McGarry, who was chairman of the economic development committee of Strathclyde regional council?

Sir Hector Monro : That adds force to the support that should be given to the Bill. I understand that the trade unions are enthusiastic that the Bill should proceed.

I have always believed, as does the regional council in my constituency, that economic development committees are constructive and submit positive ideas to enhance the regions in which they operate. That, of course, must take place in conjunction with the Scottish Development Agency, enterprise trusts and the Scottish Industry Department. All these organisations seem keen to go forward together to support the port authority's initiative, and I cannot understand why Opposition Members are so antagonistic to it. We should speak out for Scotland and for the Clyde and give the Bill every encouragement.

9.9 pm

Mr. David Lambie (Cunninghame, South) : I am grateful for the opportunity to intervene briefly in the debate. I spoke on Second Reading and voted in the Noes Lobby. Since then I have not heard any arguments which have persuaded me to change my mind, so I shall vote against Third Reading.

The hon. Member for Dumfries (Sir H. Monro) is being unfair to Opposition Members, as the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Sillars) has said. We have been speaking for Scotland in general and for the Clyde in particular. Our only interest in the proposals set out in the Bill is that we consider that the Bill does not speak up, as it were, for Scotland, and especially for the Clyde.

The sixth paragraph of the statement issued by the promoters in support of Third Reading states :

"The Port Authority would wish their business to have a commercial freedom beyond the severely restricted scope of the present powers of the Port Authority. The aim of the Bill is therefore to free the conduct of the Port Authority's business from the restrictions arising from their present limited powers."

The hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart) outlined a series of restrictions and I intervened to remind him that the main function of the port authority was that of a port and harbour authority. He had not given one example of a restriction that affected the port and harbour activities of the port authority. He gave us a lot of restrictions that could be suffered by property and commercial developments if the Clyde port authority constitution is not changed.

In common with other Opposition Members, I realise that things change on a river. Former assets may become liabilities for ports and harbours, but similarly those assets may be attractive as potential property and commercial developments. I appreciate that, given the changes over the years, there must be a restructuring of the Clyde port authority to enable it to sell its assets to realise money to develop its port and harbour facilities. Opposition

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Members are afraid that those assets will be stripped by the Clyde port holding company and will be used not for the benefit of the remainder of the Clyde port authority, but for the benefit of that company's directors and shareholders.

I laughed when the hon. Member for Eastwood read the comments made by a colleague and political friend, Tom O'Connor, in support of the Bill. One of the benefits of being here for a long time is that one can remember people and what they did. My political and trade union colleague, Tom O'Connor, was one of the men who prevented the port of Hunterston opening for six months because of a dispute between the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation, the steel workers' union, the Clyde port authority and the Transport and General Workers Union. That man now supports the development of the Clyde when he spent a large part of his life restricting such development. I will not take him as my guide.

Mr. Allan Stewart : I should have thought that that meant that Mr. O'Connor's credentials in the Labour movement were fully established. Would the hon. Gentleman care to enlighten the House on his views of Lawrence McGarry?

Mr. Lambie : I am in enough trouble with Strathclyde regional council, and now with the TGWU, without rising to that bait. I realise that the Clyde port authority has been subject to restrictions for many years, but the major restriction has been withdrawn by the Government. The major restriction on the port's activities was the national dock labour scheme, which prevented it from developing the Clyde as it should have done. That scheme prevented the authority from developing the concept of a Euro-port, a transshipment port for Europe--as suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow (Dr. Godman)--based on the port of Hunterston. The authority is no longer restricted by that scheme and if it was able to realise its assets from sales on the upper Clyde there would be nothing to stop it, even under the present set-up, from developing a major port on the Clyde.

Dr. Godman : Does my hon. Friend agree that the national dock labour scheme was developed to protect registered dock workers from employers who were, in many instances, rapacious?

Mr. Lambie : I accept what my hon. Friend says about the reasons for its establishment, but I am talking about the effects that that scheme had, until last year, on developments on the Clyde. I accept that there is a need for reorganisation. As we have been told, the Clyde port authority has three constituent parts--the upper Clyde, the lower Clyde, and the firth of Clyde, with the ports of Hunterston and Ardrossan. The port and harbour facilities at upper Clyde are finished. Those are the assets that are to be sold. The upper port is important for its shipbuilding assets, of which the hon. Member for Govan spoke. I may get into trouble with my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow by saying that, at the end of the day, maybe even Greenock and Port Glasgow are finished and the full and future development of the Clyde should be in the ports of Hunterston and Ardrossan, especially Hunterston.

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Dr. Godman In Greenock, we have Kvaerner Kincaid, which produces the engines for the vessels built at Kvaerner Govan in the constituency of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Sillars). Kincaid employs more than 500 people and Ferguson builds vessels for Caledonian MacBrayne. Greenock and Port Glasgow are far from finished.

Mr. Lambie : I accept what my hon. Friend says, but I am talking about port and harbour facilities. He is talking about manufacturing and shipbuilding facilities, which I hope will continue because a number of my constituents work in those industries.

Mr. Allan Stewart : I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. As he knows, I was trying to intervene a few minutes ago, but I did not want to interrupt his flow.

I agree with everything the hon. Gentleman said about the dock labour scheme. My memory may be defective, but I do not recall him voting for the Government measure to abolish it.

Mr. Lambie : Sometimes one has to follow the party Whip. In the end, I voted as I did because of the argument put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Port Glasgow. In the 1940s and 1950s, following the bad history of how the dockers and their families were exploited by the dock owners, there was a need for the scheme, but in the end it became a restriction on the activities of the Clyde port authority.

I am sorry that the Minister spoke so early. I thought that he would have taken the opportunity to speak at the end of the debate to answer the points made in it. If, as I have been told, the Government are enforcing a Whip on the Bill, the Minister should have the courage to defend the Bill against the arguments that have come mainly from the Opposition.

Recently, in the Scottish press and media, there have been stories that Sir Robert Scholey--my old friend "Black Bob" Scholey--is interested in building an electric power station at Hunterston to develop it as a major coal port, using the coal to generate electricity in an area earmarked for a new steel mill. I know that it is difficult if it is not in the Minister's brief, but I hope that he will intervene to inform the House whether a Scottish Minister or himself, as Minister with responsibility for ports, has taken part in the plans that we are told have been put forward by British Steel to develop the port of Hunterston, a major part of the Clyde port authority.

In the port of Hunterston there are two direct reduction plants, built by British Steel, which were mothballed the day they were finished. If the Bill is enacted, will it mean that the steel developments for which we are hoping at Hunterston will be stopped because a private company will not be interested in a steel industry for Scotland or that industry's future? Will the Minister inform the House whether the Government are taking part in such negotiations, and can he confirm the statements that have been published in the Scottish press?

Madam Deputy Speaker : Order. I have allowed the hon. Gentleman to range widely, but I must remind him that we are debating Third Reading, which is extremely narrow, and that he can refer only to what is in the Bill at present.

Mr. Lambie : I am trying to do that, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to know whether the Clyde port authority will be obliged to continue with steel and other

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developments at Hunterston when the Bill becomes an Act. My hon. Friend the Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) and I are interested in the future of the ports of Hunterston and Ardrossan, as they are the only real sources of revenue for the Clyde port authority--excluding asset sales.

I hope that the Minister will intervene to inform the House whether, if British Steel intends to build an electricity-generating station at the port of Hunterston, it will be prevented from doing so if that interferes with the steel-making capacity that we hope will be built at Hunterston.

The Bill will be bad for the future of the Clyde and it will be bad for the ports of Hunterston and Ardrossan. That is why I shall vote against Third Reading.

9.21 pm

Mr. Tony Worthington (Clydebank and Milngavie) : It is unfortunate that the sponsor of the Bill, the hon. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Stewart), did not mention the amendments which it was agreed were necessary to the Bill, and which should have been discussed in Committee. The amendments are not enormously important, but they are significant for the future development of the Bill. The reason why we have not heard about them is that the promoters of the Bill want to avoid a Report stage and to accelerate proceedings on the Bill. That sort of manoeuvre causes a loss of trust.

It was clear from the speech of the hon. Member for Eastwood that the Bill is not necessary in this form. All Opposition Members believe that the port authorities are unsatisfactory at present. There is something questionable about a body when its owners and who it is accountable to are unknown. To say that the port authority needs amending powers is not the same as saying that it needs the Bill.

One of the disappointing aspects of tonight's debate is the fact that no one has considered the structure of the proposed company, and I shall do so later. There is confusion about the Clyde port authority, and it should be cleared up. The authority has been cosy and unexamined since the 1965 order. It is controlled by the CPA board, which is wholly appointed by the Secretary of State for Transport, who claims that he is not responsible for its activities--which I find questionable.

As far as we can tell, the chairman of the board receives £10,000 a year and each of its members £3,500 a year. Appointment to the board involves an important element of trust. The word "trust" keeps cropping up. It is a trust port, and the idea is to have some sort of mandate to safeguard the Clyde on behalf of the people. That means, for example, that the board, quite rightly, is dominated by people who have a central interest in the Clyde. It includes the managing director of Yarrow, the chief executive of Caledonian MacBrayne, a Bank of Scotland representative, a representative of a major property company and representatives from trade unions. Local authorities are represented, but they are not really represented. They are represented in the sense that it would be wrong if their representatives were not on the board, but they are there in a personal capacity, not mandated by the local authorities.

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The managing directors of Yarrow and Caledonian MacBrayne would not dream of using their position in that trust port to benefit their companies. It would be unethical to use their position on the board of the Clyde port authority to their personal advantage or to the advantage of their companies. If they were to do so, the whole basis of that trust would break down.

When a new board is established but it keeps the members of the previous board and changes from a trust to a profit-making organisation, we must question the future relationship. It goes back to ownership. In this case, quite clearly the ownership is being transferred to the private sector. The Clyde port authority believes that the Government do not own it, and its chief executive said : "If so, why should it share in the proceeds?"

Why should the Government share in the proceeds? That legitimately raises the question, why should anyone share in the proceeds? That must be justified in how the resources of the port authority are shared.

The chief executive said--and I hope that the press is correct : "The board has only God above it."

That is a profound statement that raises serious questions about responsibility and accountability.

All Opposition Members accept that there should be reforms and increased accountability, but there should not be an automatic right of succession to a new company. Those who were appointed to the board of the port authority in trust should not have an automatic right of succession to the new company.

This privatisation is unlike any other. If it were the privatisation of gas, water, electricity or British Steel--which we regret--it would be under the supervision of the Government, who would then market the shares at a certain price. There would be an open door for those shares.

Mr. Sillars : The distinction is that, with the gas privatisation, the new company had to have a memorandum and articles of association that laid down clearly its purposes and objectives. Here we are asked to endorse the setting up of a private company whose memorandum and articles of association, and therefore its purposes and objectives, we know nothing about.

Mr. Worthington : I agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is highly unsatisfactory that we have no details about the successor company when we could be given those details because the people who will decide about the future company are the board members of the Clyde port authority--no one else, because no one else can get in. Three bodies are to be set up--the Clyde port trust, the successor company, and the holding company. The Clyde port trust will extinguish itself. It will be in existence for only a while in order to set up the successor company and the holding company. The Bill says : "The Trust shall consist of a chairman, a deputy chairman, and not less than eight nor more than eleven other members."

These people will be the chairman, deputy chairman and other members of the port authority, who shall become the chairman, deputy chairman and other members of the trust. This body will set up the successor company and will dispose of the securities of the holding company.

The hon. Member for Eastwood challenged me about my statement that the employee share ownership scheme applied only to the non-executive directors of the port authority. I was drawing his attention to another clause,

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which allows the securities to be distributed as the port trust wishes. Who has ever heard of a company in which the workers got shares but the directors did not? That would be a first. I am willing to withdraw all that I have said on this issue if the hon. Member will assure me that none of the non-executive directors, who are appointed by the Secretary of State for Transport, will benefit from privatisation.

Mr. Allan Stewart : If the general public are allowed to take up shares in the new holding company, then the directors, or the hon. Gentleman, or I, or anybody else, could apply for shares. The point is that the interest-free loan for shares is limited solely to employees or past employees of the company, so that that includes the executive directors, who are employees, but not the non-executive directors.

Mr. Worthington : That was not the assurance that I was seeking, but it takes me on to another point. The hon. Member is implying that shares in this company will be issued on the basis of a public issue of shares. We know nothing about this. He said that it would be open to me, on my humble income, to apply for shares alongside all other members of the public and to be allocated shares. Will there be a public issue of shares or will shares be issued by invitation?

Mr. Allan Stewart : That is a possibility. The board made it quite clear that it wanted to place shares with Scottish financial institutions. That is its preference.

Mr. Worthington : That is why we should be examining the Bill. Apart from a press release which was produced in about November containing a stated wish that the shares should be placed with Scottish financial institutions, I was not aware that there had been any commitment about who would get the shares or in what form. No details whatsoever have been issued about how the company is to be launched, but it is now quite clear that it will not be a public issue of shares with a listing on the Stock Exchange. There has been no attempt at that, but in some mystical way the company will be launched and people will be given the opportunity to have shares.

Dr. Godman : With regard to the non-executive directors of the present board, let me point out to my hon. Friend that there is no representative from Strathclyde regional council.

Mr. Worthington : That is correct. There never was a representative of Strathclyde regional council in a formal sense ; there was a person who also happened to be a councillor on Strathclyde regional council.

Dr. Godman : Is it not the case that, when the Secretary of State makes appointments to quangos, nominations are requested from the Scottish Trades Union Congress, for example, and the local councils?

Mr. Worthington : No doubt the Department of Transport constructs such boards in a way similar to the way in which the Scottish Office constructs the boards for quangos under its control. However, I want to stick with my principal point.

If we give the Bill a Third Reading today, we shall be giving a blank cheque to a number of nominees of the Secretary of State for Transport to set up the successor company in whatever form they want. It may or may not

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benefit them, but it will not have to be in a detailed form approved by the House. We have an extremely vague Bill. We could have been given much more detail because the people who will shape the Clyde board trust, the holding company and the successor company are all in post in the Clyde port authority. Only they will be able to determine the shape of the new company.

The Bill is of considerable importance to the west of Scotland. The Opposition are disappointed that there has been so little interest in an issue of such importance to the future of the Clyde area. The Clyde has considerable symbolism. The port has economic, leisure and general social importance to the health of the area. Those who are in control of the Clyde must be checked to ensure that their interest in the Clyde and the people of the west of Scotland is central. If we give the Bill a Third Reading tonight, there will be no restrictions on who may own the companies and develop them in future.

There has been much reference to dredging. Through the process of debate we have clarified that issue. We now have a different answer from the first answer we received from the hon. Member for Eastwood. When the hon. Member for Glasgow, Govan (Mr. Sillars) asked him whether the successor company would be responsible for dredging the river, the hon. Member for Eastwood replied that that was a fair question and that the answer was yes. The answer is not yes ; the answer is maybe. The existing legislation allows the port authority to withdraw from dredging, and it will allow the future company to do so. Labour Members are concerned that because the authority will be privatised a commercial judgment will be made about whether it is profitable to dredge the Clyde. There are far more profitable activities for the successor company than to dredge the Clyde ; that is a cost, not a profit-making exercise.

The regional council, the port authority and others commissioned studies which showed that the withdrawal of dredging would have consequences such as flooding and restricting access up the Clyde. An article on the consequences of global warming for the Clyde appeared in Scotland on Sunday on 10 June. There are many low-lying areas--Langbank on one side and Bowling on the other, which has the holding tanks for oil--where the consequences of flooding would be considerable.

A major port, its drainage, sewage and general environment, is much better controlled by a body that has as its central interest the welfare of the people of the area rather than by a private company, just for the time being and only if it is profitable. That is why I shall oppose the Bill.

9.41 pm

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