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Mr. Tim Devlin (Stockton, South) : I am grateful, having sat through last year's arts debate and this one, to have been given a chance to reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Dicks). My region spends the highest amount per head on the arts in


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England, so it is a shock to listen to my hon. Friend underrating the value of the arts. He puts me in mind of Goldsmith, who said : "When they talk'd of their Raphaels, Correggios, and stuff, He shifted his trumpet, and only took snuff."

In 1818 Victor Cousin coined the phrase "art for art's sake" while lecturing at the Sorbonne. It is sad that so often the arts are attacked as a drain on a society that is already hard pressed to provide the quantity and quality of services that are demanded by the modern consumer of the welfare state. It has also meant a reformulation of the value of the arts in society, a process which has been going on continuously since the establishment of the Office of Arts and Libraries and the Arts Council. In the last 10 years, however, the arts have flourished. The new funding

arrangements--particularly the partnerships with private sponsors and local government--have led to refinements of the arguments for the arts and their role in society.

I wish to examine two particular areas in my contribution to the debate. First, I applaud the part that the arts are playing in the process of urban regeneration. I know that the Minister who is to reply to the debate has an interest in that subject. Secondly, I urge further encouragement of the arts as part of the productive society. In 1987, our first pledge as a Government was to tackle the very serious problems of declining inner cities. The issue, some might say, has gone off the political agenda, but to my mind--representing, as I do, one of the areas concerned--it cannot go away until the problem is solved. That is what we are in the process of doing through the urban development corporations in Teesside, Tyneside, Trafford, the black country and elsewhere. These projects have achieved the most significant success where they have incorporated the arts. The most dramatic transformation has already been alluded to by the hon. Member for Paisley, South (Mr. Buchan) and others. Glasgow--this year's European city of culture--started with its "miles better" campaign and followed it up with the opening of the Burrell collection and the cleaning of its principal buildings. Critics might argue that the arts have no economic use, but when I visited Glasgow earlier this year, specifically to see the Burrell collection, I was impressed by the great range of cultural activities that were taking place, the many other good quality museums that were available and the obvious prosperity that tourism had generated.

Bradford is another surprise for the outsider. It has made startling progress centring around the "city of entertainment", which includes the national museum of photography, film and television and the Alhambra theatre, which has recently been restored. They are soon to be joined by the Indian collection of the Victoria and Albert museum.

In Liverpool, the northern Tate opened to receive 300,000 visitors in its first three months. I was particularly struck by the people of Birmingham's pride in their orchestra when I visited there on Saturday. I am told that theatres in Birmingham are packed every weekend and that Simon Rattle and the City of Birmingham symphony orchestra are held out by the ordinary people of Birmingham as the centrepiece of the city's culture, even though many of those boasting about that might never have been to a performance.


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There is no doubt that the arts are a major revenue earner and employer. The Myerscough report said that 2.1 per cent. of the population work in the arts while tourists account for 42 per cent. of attendances at arts events in London. Tourism with an arts ingredient is worth £3.1 billion a year or 25 per cent. of total tourist earnings.

The Washington-based Urban Land Institute drew particular attention to the way in which arts can put the heart back into inner cities. It said :

"A healthy central core--economically strong, lively at all hours, activity oriented, pedestrian focussed, containing a rich mixture of uses--now is perceived as key to the vigor of the city as a whole. A variety of economic and social forces have combined to change perceptions of the needs and goals for downtowns, and to bring public agencies in close alignment with the private and arts sectors." One of the leading property developers in the United States, Michael Marston, said :

"Real Estate projects that include the arts appropriately have the opportunity to offer commercial space that is unique, thereby achieving a highly desirable position in the marketplace. I personally feel that mixed- use projects including the arts have, over the longer run, stronger value appreciation potential than more standard forms of real estate development."

The Prime Minister expounded that message when speaking to the Royal Academy about the inner cities. She said of a city : "It was only a real, true city when it also had libraries, art galleries, music, orchestras, choirs. You needed the whole of the arts to make the cities The spirit of community, the spirit of feeling that life is not whole unless the arts are part of it, is returning."

I look forward to the extension of that work into new areas. Speaking parochially for a moment, I hope that my constituency will one day be the site of a major flagship arts project. A substantial part of our local area is covered by the Teesside development corporation. It should listen to pleas for a major facility, perhaps a concert hall, theatre, national museum or other arts centre. I am pleased to note that knowledge of the disparity in funding between Teesside and Tyneside by Northern Arts led to a report on the future of the arts in Teesside published by Northern Arts and the Teesside development corporation.

The point must be emphasised again and again that arts projects act as ambassadors for a city. The Cincinnati city orchestra has undoubtedly helped to attract investment to that city, and the same can be said of the Chicago symphony orchestra. Some people only visit Pitlochry in Scotland to attend its marvellous theatre. The Burrell collection is a marvellous ambassador for Glasgow. The northern Tate in Liverpool and the Royal Shakespeare Company of Tyneside have also attracted people to those cities. I believe that Teesside could be every bit as much a part of that success story. More than 3.2 million people live within 90 minutes drive of it and, from the end of this year, 40,000 sq ft of exhibition space will be available. I hope that the Minister will heed calls to send out collections and part-collections from the basements of the national museums to places such as Teesside, so that people who do not have access to London can enjoy them.

The report that has been compiled on the future of the arts in Teesside is helpful, as it states that there should be a three-pronged strategy. First, that strategy should ensure that arts provision serves and reaches the population. Secondly, existing arts activities should be developed and the Cleveland arts economy should be expanded. Thirdly, new arts facilities and buildings should be developed to


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enable the county to capitalise on regional, national and international opportunities. As ever when things are done in Teesside, the author tries not to offend anyone and enlist the support of the local Labour-controlled authority.

The Government have offended many people and challenged the local authority when it set up the development corporation, which has brought a spectacular amount of new investment to the area and unrivalled new opportunities for development. We should do the same again for the arts and reorder our priorities so that they are : the development of a city arts flagship project for Teesside, which will put it on the international map ; develop existing efforts ; widen participation and interest in the arts locally.

The arts have a vital role to play in the development of a productive economy. Sometimes, I fear that, having been a nation of shopkeepers, we have become one of moneybrokers, turning money around and making a profit, rather than adding value to objects. In the world of making things--I represent a manufacturing

constituency--design is every bit as important as price and productive technique. Why then are no British manufacturers making a new design of sports car, whereas Japanese companies are launching several this year? Some 150 years ago, that problem was first highlighted by the national exhibition at Crystal Palace. Since then, trade has exacerbated the problem.

I hope that further encouragement will be given to the arts, especially design. I know that that is not specifically a matter for the Minister who is to reply, but I hope that he will emphasise the role of the visual arts and the part that they have to play in encouraging design.

9.32 pm

Mrs. Ann Taylor (Dewsbury) : It is my lot to wind up for the Opposition at the precise moment that England is taking part in a penalty shoot-out, so I shall not be surprised if the attention of hon. Members lapses at times, especially when news reaches the Chamber.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher) said, we welcome the opportunity to debate not only the arts but our heritage. My hon. Friend is always pressing for more time to debate such matters. From his opening speech, it was obvious that, in terms of his awareness of problems facing the arts and policy development, my hon. Friend has considerable clout. I am sure that if Ministers do not share his priorities, they must respect his contributions to these debates.

I make no claim to be an expert on the arts. I have viewed the debate as a consumer, and have listened to what has been said by people with greater expertise. However, having spent several academic years studying economic and social history, I have more than a passing interest in our heritage and, more importantly, as a parent, I am extremely concerned that we place a proper value on the quality of life that we create for future generations.

Hon. Members on both sides of the House praised institutions from the natural history museum to cathedrals. Most of them exist for our benefit only because of the investment and decisions made by past generations. We are under an obligation to be equally far-sighted in our treatment of our heritage and our investment in the arts today. I have listened carefully to most of the speeches this evening, and found them--especially those of my hon.


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Friends--interesting and enjoyable and, at times, a useful education. However, if I am totally honest, I would rather have spent the past two hours watching the World cup match on television, especially at 8.34 pm, when the sound of the cheer reached the Chamber. I mean no disrespect to my colleagues, but I hope that other hon. Members share my feeling that there is a clash of interests this evening. It is strange that the Government should schedule a debate on the arts and heritage so that it clashes with what, judging by the small part of it that I saw, is an extremely good display of art. Football is an important element in our heritage and I hope that Ministers appreciate that it is not just a sport but a cultural event. Anyone who doubts that should stand in the terraces or sit in the stand at a football match and listen to the wry humour. I know that many Conservative Members are somewhat prejudiced against football but, as I say, it is part of our cultural background and heritage.

I regret the clash of events. Perhaps this debate should have been scheduled for tomorrow and we could have had a Scottish debate this evening. When I say that, I mean no disrespect to Scottish Members. I was born in Scotland and have mixed loyalties--no doubt the right hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) will be interested to know that. Tempting though it is, I do not want to hijack the debate into a discussion on football. Some of us could get carried away in the manner of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Dicks) when he described Roger Milla. I agree that Roger Milla is extremely artistic. The hon. Gentleman did not talk about poetry in motion, but if we are not careful we could find ourselves straying down that path. I do not want to do that.

I should like to deal with the definitions that have been used in the debate. It is right that hon. Members should debate great works of art, orchestras, theatres, fine palaces, great houses and the wonderful architectural achievements of the past. It is important to preserve those things and support the fine arts generally because of the role that they play in a civilised society. However, there is another side which is in danger of being neglected or considered to be of secondary importance in our debates. There is a wider definition of the arts and heritage, and I hope that in future debates it will move nearer to the centre of the stage.

My heritage does not have its roots in big houses and palaces, although I understand that my Scottish grandmother was in service in one fine big house. My heritage, and that of most people, is working-class life. It is a heritage of terraced houses, two up, two down and no bathroom, and of parents and grandparents who worked in mills, factories and mines. We must foster the understanding that those things are part of our heritage. In literature, such things are often glamorised but we must get the balance right.

Whatever the balance between glamour and reality, it is important to ask the Government what they are doing to make the young people of today aware of that part of their heritage. Of course we want to preserve the fine heritage and the houses and palaces, but just as history should not teach only about kings and queens, so, in discussing our heritage, we should not fall into the trap of talking only about castles and palaces.


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I note that, like me, the Minister is somewhat disturbed and thrown off course by the bad news that has just reached the Chamber about the World cup match. We all commiserate with those who have worked so hard for a better result. There seemed to be a great deal of unfairness in many of the results, and I am sure that we all congratulate the England team on its performance and regret that the final outcome was not more satisfactory.

Mr. Fisher : Football is part of our heritage.

Mrs. Taylor : I dealt with that when my hon. Friend was out of the Chamber.

The Minister for the Environment and Countryside is a northern Member. I should like to hear what he is doing to ensure that the heritage of the majority gets proper recognition. An increasing number of small industrial museums are being established, very often with little or no Government assistance, and the Minister's action is hindering the development of some of those museums.

Adjacent to my own constituency is the Caphouse mining museum. It was once a real colliery, and when it was due to close it was turned into a museum with the help of West Yorkshire county council, Kirklees and Wakefield district councils, and some EC funding--but no Government money. When the Government abolished county councils, the financial burden of supporting that museum increased. The Local Government and Housing Act 1989 makes it difficult for local authorities to subsidise and maintain the museum, because it is not an arm's length company. There is now concern about its future. The museum's trustees have established a new governing body to attract sponsorship. The museum should serve as a showpiece of mining in an area of declining mining activity, but instead of helping, the Government introduced legislation that could cripple that project. The Minister's delay in introducing regulations is increasing uncertainty. I hope that the Minister for the Environment and Countryside will consider the possible consequences. The museum is used by thousands of children each year, who at small cost can visit a live pit--not an artificial creation. I suggest that that museum is more relevant to the background and heritage of families in my constituency than many of the great halls and other places that receive a subsidy.

I do not follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington in saying that there is no place for subsidies in respect of fine buildings, but I do not believe that they have an exclusive right to them. I hope that the Minister for the Arts will take on board the need to broaden the definition of heritage, as should the Minister for the Environment and Countryside.

Another part of our heritage is our natural landscape, and public enjoyment and appreciation of the countryside. As I have always lived in northern towns but in sight of open country, it is an aspect of our heritage that I particularly value. It is all too easy to take for granted our countryside and open spaces, but working in Westminster all week is a good counter to any temptation to fall into that trap. I only feel sorry for right hon. and hon. Members whose constituencies are not as attractive as mine. I am sure that the Minister for the Environment and Countryside agrees, because his constituency is in an extremely attractive part of the country. Ministers have a fundamental conflict between the need to protect such areas and their dogma of non-interference


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and belief that market forces should rule. That may be why not even one piece of landscape has been designated under the Ancient Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979. What does the Minister propose to do in respect of the Common Land Forum's recommendation? The Minister for the Environment and Countryside recently supported family rambling day to demonstrate his solidarity with the ramblers' demands for access to the countryside. However, I understand that his walk a week last Sunday was rained off. We on the other side of Yorkshire are made of sterner stuff, and we went ahead. Nevertheless, the Minister's support was welcome.

He is somewhat rare, in that he urges local authorities to spend extra money on establishing and encouraging more rights of way and signposts. I hope that he can square that with poll tax capping. What does the Minister intend to do in respect of the Government's promise in the Conservative party manifesto in May 1987 : "We will legislate to safeguard common land on the basis of the Common Land Forum."?

Had we time, I would recount all the occasions on which Ministers have repeated the guarantee that legislation of that kind was about to be introduced. We are told that the Government intend to introduce a comprehensive Bill at a suitable opportunity when parliamentary time permits, and that it will be based loosely on relevant reports. We have had a little slippage on occasions, when we have been told that it will take a little time. We were told by the Minister of State in February that legislation would be coming soon. In March he said that a statement was expected sooner rather than later. At the beginning of April, he said that he expected a further statement about the Government's intention within a few weeks. Later that month, he said that a further statement of the Government's intentions would be made soon.

Mr. Fisher : We are getting closer.

Mrs. Taylor : As my hon. Friend says, we are getting closer. We have been told for three years that a statement was coming. It would be helpful to have an indication of the Government's intentions this evening. If we do not, we can conclude only that the Government intend to renege on their past promises.

Time is short. The debate has been varied and it has concentrated, perhaps wrongly, more on arts issues than on heritage issues. I hope that in future hon. Members on both sides of the House will have more time to deal with the whole wealth of issues that have been touched on this evening.

Mr. David Lightbown (Lords Commissioner to the Treasury) : On this important day.

Mrs. Taylor : Yes, on this important day, as the Government Whip, who usually does not speak, has pointed out. It is a black day for English football. I hope that hon. Members will understand the need to appreciate and protect our arts and heritage, including football. Then perhaps we will have learnt something from today's events. 9.46 pm

The Minister for the Environment and Countryside (Mr. David Trippier) : Like the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mrs. Taylor), I am mortified at the England result. A bright, efficient civil servant managed to put into my hand the amazing statistic that more people go to theatre, opera


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and dance performances than to football matches. I am beginning to wonder whether that helps the current position.

I say to the right hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Mr. Sheldon) and the hon. Member for Dewsbury--both of whom have a fondness for the city of Manchester--that there is some consolation in what happened at lunchtime today, when I had the privilege of attending a function which was also attended by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher)--

Mr. Fisher : Distinguished Member.

Mr. Trippier : Yes, the distinguished Member. I had the privilege of awarding the museum of the year award, which was jointly won not only by the imperial war museum, which could be expected and was richly deserved, but by the Manchester museum of industry and science, so I hope that there will be dancing in the streets of my favourite city.

The richness and the diversity of Britain's heritage is not in doubt. After six hours of debate, I am not in much doubt about the richness and diversity of the views of hon. Members on the subject--perhaps more the richness of the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South (Mr. Cormack) than the diversity of the views of my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Dicks).

Some of the arguments, especially those of the hon. Member for Stoke-upon- Trent, Central, were like parts of England's heritage--very old. Unfortunately, his ideas are in nothing like such good condition as much of the English heritage. The difference is that the owners of Britain's great art and heritage care deeply about their possessions and ensure that they are looked after. I am afraid that the hon. Member does not make the same effort with his opinions. He does not care what he says, whether it is true or even whether it makes sense. That is why he found himself in a terrible muddle in linking together the responsibility for municipal parks, which he should know by now come under local authorities, and for the royal parks, which are the responsibility of my Department.

Mr. Fisher : No.

Mr. Trippier : The hon. Gentleman specifically mentioned the royal parks, as the record will show.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the document "Looking to the Future", on which he was quizzed by my hon. Friends who sought to extract a more accurate figure or estimate of what it would cost a future Labour Government to implement the policy. The hon. Gentleman ducked the question. I will gladly allow him to intervene on this precise matter if he can tell the House the cost of implementing these proposals in terms of the arts and heritage.

Mr. Fisher : I wish to take up a previous point about the royal parks. [ Hon. Members :-- "Oh no!"] Oh yes! The Minister referred to the royal parks. Does he approve of the royal parks banning the 300-year- old tradition of flying kites on Sundays in Kensington gardens? Does he feel that access to the royal parks should be widened rather than diminished in this way? Will he give the Government's view?

Mr. Trippier : We are going to get carried away one way or the other about the flying of kites. The hon. Gentleman


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has been flying a few during this debate. I agree that there should be wider access to public parks and to royal parks wherever possible.

The hon. Gentleman said about five times in his speech that he wanted a national audit. I give him notice that the Government are putting the Labour party and its policy document under audit. Every pledge that the hon. Gentleman made today will be carefully and closely examined and costed. Given that the first salvo by the Leader of the Opposition into this difficult territory was his statement that the first two benefits that the Labour party would introduce in the unlikely event of its ever being elected would cost £2 billion, and given that everyone has now confirmed that it will be at least £3.5 billion, I assure the House--

Mrs. Ann Taylor : Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Trippier : No, I will not.

Mrs. Taylor rose --

Mr. Trippier : All right, I give way.

Mrs. Taylor : The Minister is uncharacteristically generous. He seems to be proving yet again that he belongs to the Maradona school of drama--whenever he is under attack, he does the parliamentary equivalent of rolling over three times and shouting "Foul." The Minister said that all these plans will be audited. If it is so easy to audit the Labour party's policy, why is it proving so difficult for the Department to audit its position and all that has happened so far? Who will pay for the audit--the Government or the Conservative party?

Mr. Trippier : I assure the hon. Lady, if she did not already know, that the Government are consistently audited. Every Department of state is subjected to rigorous scrutiny by the National Audit Office and various Select Committees. We need to turn the attention of the Select Committees to the Labour party.

The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central went on to mislead the House once again--unintentionally, I am sure--by saying that the Government had not done anything to help tackle the problem experienced with the Rose theatre site.

Mr. Fisher rose --

Mr. Trippier : I am sorry, but you have had your opportunity. You made a very long speech. I have a short time in which to respond. You must not get so thin skinned about the fact that I might be picking you up on one or two points.

Mr. Speaker : Order. I am "you".

Mr. Trippier : The sum of £1 million was given to allow the extra time for the redesign of the office block on the Rose theatre site, so the hon. Gentleman's comment was not accurate.

To respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) about areas of archaeological importance--an important matter--

Mr. Fisher rose--

Mr. Trippier : --I expect to announce later this month


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Mr. Fisher rose--

Hon. Members : Sit down!

Mr. Trippier : I give way.

Mr. Fisher : I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. He made a serious accusation that I had misled the House, and it is important to put the record straight. The help has not been given to the Rose Theatre Trust. Indeed, the Government are now saying that it will have to pay the full legal costs. They have given just £2,000 towards the legal costs and they say that the Rose Theatre Trust will have to pay the rest. Is that really the Government's attitude towards this important archaeological site?

Mr. Trippier : In the unlikely event of the hon. Gentleman being a Minister, would he strongly advocate that the Government should help with the legal costs of an organisation that brings a case in that way? Is he seriously suggesting that?

The hon. Member for Southwark and Bermondsey made a fair point. I expect to announce later this month my conclusions on the operation and effectiveness of statutory areas of archaeological importance following the review and advice provided by English Heritage. As to the point that the hon. Gentleman made about the Museum of London's grant, English Heritage is discussing with the Museum of London and other interested parties the provision of an archaeological survey in London, which primarily is a matter for that body.

In his excellent speech, my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Arts spoke of Government policy on the arts. I intend to concentrate my remarks on the subjects for which the Department of the Environment is responsible.

We live surrounded by a rich legacy of the past. Castles, palaces, stately homes, archaeological remains and attractive villages and towns serve to remind us of our proud history as a land of culture, commerce and history. Like the living arts and the treasures of our museums and galleries, the built heritage contributes vitally to the quality of life. A sense of history and stewardship helps to weld our society together.

In his excellent speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire, South referred to the nation's concern for our cathedrals. I might share his views, and I assure him that we hope to address that matter in the forthcoming White Paper, which should be launched in the autumn.

Our generation values the built heritage more than any previous generation and in recent years, under a Government who have encouraged people to think and act for themselves, there has been a marked increase in that trend. It is significant, for example, that the National Trust has doubled its membership in the past 10 years to almost 2 million. The Labour party's analysis of art and heritage policy is still fundamentally corporatist and bureaucratic. The individual's instinctive feeling for an association with the past has no place in Labour party policy. One cannot legislate for stewardship, but if it were possible the party would try.

The Government's role lies not in drawing up grand plans--that is an absurd notion. The fabric of our nation was laid long before we politicians came on the scene and will certainly be there long after. What continues are the bonds formed by an individual's pride in his nation's history and landmarks. We should cherish the values of


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ownership and stewardship. The Government's policy is to provide the framework in which those values are allowed to flourish. I wish to identify five separate strands to that policy. First, the Government and their agencies aim to set standards of excellence in the care of properties in their ownership or guardianship. Secondly, we have an excellent system for identifying and recording the best of our built heritage. Thirdly, we aim to harness the energy and resources of the private and voluntary sectors in conserving the heritage, backed where necessary with financial assistance from public funds to help meet the extra cost of maintaining and restoring heritage properties. Fourthly, the Government seek to promote greater understanding and enjoyment of the heritage and to encourage wider public participation. Last, but not least, we have a mature and effective legislative system to protect and preserve the heritage. In those, and in other matters, the Government and their agencies can set an example and give a lead. English Heritage manages 400 castles, abbeys, historic houses and other sites and properties in England, including such famous sites as Stonehenge, Dover castle, Osborne house and Hadrian's wall. This year, it is spending almost £34 million from a total grant in aid of £78.5 million on maintaining, repairing, displaying and marketing those properties. The historic royal palaces agency was set up as an executive agency within my Department in October last year. It has 350 staff and a budget of about £20 million.

Mr. Fisher : Give the figures.

Mr. Trippier : The hon. Gentleman keeps asking me to give him figures, but he does not like the figures when I give them. The agency is headed by the first chief executive to have been recruited from an agency outside the civil service.

I have spoken of the cultural value of the built heritage to both our own and future generations, but heritage is also good business and contributes substantially to a tourist industry worth about £19 billion in total. That point was effectively made by my hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel). Tourism is the strongest and largest growth sector in the whole of the British economy, creating a net increase of about 50,000 jobs year by year. I accept that there can sometimes be a conflict between heritage and tourism, although it seems to me that those who oppose such tourism would prefer people to send their money in a sealed envelope through the post rather than turning up in person. We must realise that we attract an enormous number of overseas visitors who come here to appreciate our heritage--I hardly think that they come here for our climate. It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.


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Mr. Paul Howard

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.-- [Mr. Lightbown].

10 pm

Mr. Jack Thompson (Wansbeck) : I am grateful to have the opportunity to introduce this Adjournment debate, even if this evening's experiences outside the House have not been pleasant. Having watched the match, I recommend that we do not go into extra time in the House tonight. I sympathise with you, Mr. Speaker, and with the Minister. We have to stay a little longer, despite the disappointing events outside.

Parliament is concerned with individual rights, and the case to which I shall refer has a bearing on those rights. The fact that we are debating it reflects the significance of the parliamentary system in Britain. I regret that I have had to seek an Adjournment debate to bring it to the attention of the House, because for two years now I have been trying to solve the problem with the Ministry of Defence and the Army medical authorities, but a response to my clear requests for information has not been forthcoming.

A constituent of mine, Paul Howard, was given a temporary discharge from the Scottish division on 28 December 1985. I have with me a copy of the relevant document which is entitled :

"Certificate of discharge issued to a soldier discharged with less than six months service or discharged from type O' engagement." The document lists his name, surname, army number and the place at which he enlisted. The service particulars on discharge specify that Paul Howard had served as a private and that his service on discharge was five months and 20 days, including 28 days on leave without pay before reporting for duty. The document states as the cause of his discharge :

"Ceasing to fulfil Army medical standards."

His military conduct is described as

"Exemplary assessed on five months' service."

The document is signed by the officer in charge of infantry and GSC manning, Imphal barracks, York.

The papers also include a temporary certificate of discharge or transfer to the reserve, which also gives his rank, number and name, and states that the cause of his discharge was medical and that his military conduct was exemplary. That is the only information that has been made available about Paul Howard's discharge.

Paul Howard joined the Army on 5 August 1985. He underwent the normal medical examination required for those joining the armed forces and had a clean medical record. He was undertaking training with the Gordon Highlanders when he took ill and was transferred to the Royal Victoria infirmary in Edinburgh. He was diagnosed as having

"urinary tract infection, contusions of the soft tissue in the lower back and contusions of the scalp."

Following his period in the Royal Victoria infirmary, a medical board held in November 1985 discharged him as

"temporarily medically unfit."

Two appointments were made for Mr. Howard to see Dr. Bates, a consultant neurologist, but he was unable to keep the appointment. The Ministry said that that was his fault, but in fact he was a patient in Catterick military hospital which would not release him for the appointment. He was then requested to obtain, at his own expense,


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